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Author: Subject: Exotic thermites & analogs
PrimoPyro
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[*] posted on 27-10-2002 at 13:46
Alkalai Aluminum Hydrides


Well, what about Fe3O4 and KAlH4? (shiver in fear at the thought of its sensitivity)

That should be quite 'hot'.

Lithium aluminum hydride is common, and potassium aluminum hydride would provide more energythan the lithium salt.

Question is, would they burst into flame upon contact, or would a mixture be stable enough to be set off intentionally. Regardless, even if it is 'stable enough' I'd never recommend storing the mixture, as it would provide MUUUUUCH more energy than standard thermite, I think.

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[*] posted on 27-10-2002 at 14:21


Just wondering, did anyone ever try mixing CuO/Al with a small amount of binder, such as polyester resin, before either detonation or ignition? I'm particularly interested in detonating bound mixtures...
Anyone know if it works? It could make good little flash-bangs...
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[*] posted on 28-10-2002 at 09:33


How about CaC2/Fe2O3? The formation of CaO should gives quite a good enthalpy.
Not to speak of KMnO4/CaC2.....




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[*] posted on 29-10-2002 at 04:04


Is it posible to use CuO with fuels of lower ingnition point?
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[*] posted on 29-10-2002 at 14:54


How about Ag2O2 and Al/Mg/CaC2/ LiAlH4? :D



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bonemachine
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[*] posted on 31-10-2002 at 07:55


I am thinking to make 200grams of CuO/AL. If i confine this in paper tube will it be powerfull like flash? Or not?
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bonemachine
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[*] posted on 31-10-2002 at 11:53


So it seems that it has alot of blasting power. But compared to common flash powders how powerfull could be 200grams??

Also I realy don't understand how CuO/Al detonates. If it would realy detonate then simply CuO could also do. Am i right? Or the mixture can ingnite so fast before the elements separate from each other from the blast?
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bonemachine
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[*] posted on 1-11-2002 at 11:36


Maybe this doesn't got to do much with thermite but i was always wondering what could hapend if a hot glowing thermite falls inside a container full of potasium nitrate. My first thought was that a very violend deflagration will occur trowing hot particles everywhere. But on second thought if you consider that the heat is so high to decompose even water then why not to detonate potassium nitrate? I am planing to test this soon.... Any one has any experience about this or just imagine what could hapend if thermite ingnites in a container with a nitrate oxidiser?
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bonemachine
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[*] posted on 2-11-2002 at 09:56


I made some CuO (by heating strongly Cu(OH) from electrolysis cell until it turns totaly black) and mixed it with 600mesh Al flake. I have trouble ingniting it. I used a barium nitrate/Fe fuse and the AL sparked a little bit but failed to deflagrate with CuO. What temperature needs CuO/Al to ingnite? Would be good to add some sulfur to the CuO/Al mix so it can be ingnited easy or it will slow down the burn rate? Also i had a thought to add some kno3 to make it more ingnitable will this work?
Oh and a last one, Carbon reduces CuO at low temperatures could be used as fuell?

plz someone anser!!:(
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Polverone
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[*] posted on 2-11-2002 at 11:37


In what proportions did you mix the aluminum flake with the copper oxide? They should be in a stoichiometric ratio for best results. If you're not sure what a stoichiometric ratio is, see my earlier advice about acquiring some chemistry books. A good igniter mixture is powdered aluminum and sulfur, again in a stoichiometric ratio (or somewhat off of such a ratio if you want it to burn slower). I don't think you'll improve your CuO/Al mixture any by adding carbon, sulfur, or potassium nitrate. BTW, if you can get 600 mesh aluminum, why do you have to resort to electrolysis to get copper oxide? You should be able to get it cheaply from a pyrotechnic or ceramic supplier.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2002 at 01:39


I mix them in equal volumetric parts (i don't have a scale). There is no ceramics where i live wich sell CuO but Al powder i can find easy in hardware shops. I think that barium nitrate/Fe fuse burned hot like the S/Al mix but it didn't light. Would a kno3/Al/S mix ingnite the thermite reliably?

thanks for the reply:)
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bonemachine
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[*] posted on 3-11-2002 at 11:49


Damn i tryed again CuO/Al and it didn't worked. Just some Al sparking and then it goes of. And the yields of Cu(OH) with elctrolysis is to small. When i heat it to form CuO the volume gets even smaler!.Two days of electrolysis for a gram or 2. It is realy pain in the ass to make it that way. Guess i am never gona make it. :(
Any other sugestions to make a super fast burning thermite? I have very fine Al.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2002 at 16:40
Zn instead of Al


Hello all,

just to let ya all know, CuO and powered Zinc is as reactive as CuO and Al or even a little more so. Penny's after 1982 (USA) are almost 99% Zinc. Zinc is very easily (well almost) powered in a ball mill while still warm. Zinc is also reactive with other Oxides also, but I can't find my list. Sorry I will keep looking. More late, I hope!
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[*] posted on 4-11-2002 at 06:00


Actually my problem is the manufacture of sizeable amounds of CuO with starting material Cu. I manage to make some with electrolysis but all my tests (with CuO/Al) failed and i must wait to electrolise for two days to get 2 grams for another testing....
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[*] posted on 4-11-2002 at 06:06


I am quite sure that i read recent that Cu2O is prepared comercialy by elctrolysis but it doesn't describe how

Cu2O is red isn't it?
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[*] posted on 4-11-2002 at 11:36


Cu2O is red, CuO is black.
Bonemachine, don't you have any nitric acid? Cu(NO3)2 is easily made into CuO...
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[*] posted on 13-3-2003 at 06:05


CuSO4 -heat/air-> CuO + SO3
Cu(NO3)2 -heat->CuO + NOx
NOx can be condensed as N2O4(l) to make panclastites!

Cu + H2SO4 or HNO3 --> CuSO4 or Cu(NO3)2
CuSO4 + 2NaOH --> Na2SO4 + Cu(OH)2(turquoise ppte)
(idem with Cu(NO3)2)!

CaC2 is not a burning fuel even with O2 or HNO3 it doesn't burn; don't expect it to burn with lower oxydisers like CuO!
It is made from CaO and C in electric furnace!

If your CuO/Al doesn't work maybe incriminate your Al powder; it has to be very smooth, without fats, thin oxyd layer!

A fast decomposition doesn't mean detonation!
All what goes over 350 m/s will make a strong bang!If you put a detonator on it; it will boost a bit the reaction, but it will stil not be a detonation! I have boosted many times black powders with primaries powdered all arround in the charge...it increases power and speed but it is not a detonation in the proper sense of the term!
If the burning speed is 1000m/s it is still a deflagration; it displays brisance properties!




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[*] posted on 13-7-2003 at 17:58


Speaking of silver oxides I have had some experience. Before I knew better I decided to recycle my soluble silver wastes, I precipitated them out with hydroxide to for the oxide Ag2O. I figured this would burn with a vengeance so I decided to throw in some liquid sulfur as a binder. The aluminum power, liquid sulfur, and silver oxide went together without a hitch, but when I was placing the mixture in the cast I had for it, after it cooled down a bit it started crackling and glowing red hot. Before I could toss it away the whole solidified top blew off and the mixture went up REAL fast tossing debris in the air. Not sure how the oxide would have gone up without the sulfur, it could have moderated the reaction, or it could have been the cause of it going up so quickly.
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chemoleo
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[*] posted on 25-8-2003 at 17:09
CuO and Al


elsewhere I heard that CuO and Al is one of the most powerful thermite mixtures. So I set out to make prepare it. I mixed NaOH ( in solution ) and CuSO4 in stoichiometric amounts, and washed the bright blue Cu(OH)2 precipitate many times to make sure no Na2So4 is left. trust me, none was left :)
This i dried in the sun, and heated it to at least 300 deg C under a bunsen flame. the powder turned black, and its propertiers are a bit like activated charcoal (i.e. nearly like a liquid - quite cool to look at)
This I mixed with Al (0.2 mm or less), and ignited as usual with a few sparkling candles tied togetha. It worked fine, but about as vigorous (or probably less) as the standard Fe2O3/Al mixture. Couldnt see any difference between the two. any idea why it is not as vigorous as some say, in this thread????

[Edited on 26-8-2003 by chemoleo]
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[*] posted on 25-8-2003 at 18:45
vigor


I was using aluminum powder (300 mesh) instead of granular Al. I'm sure that makes quite a difference.
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chemoleo
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[*] posted on 25-8-2003 at 19:41


sure, but then, I used the same Al for the Al/Fe2O3. so the differnce should be relative. and i didnt notice any relative difference :(
but maybe that type of reasoning doesnt hold here...
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[*] posted on 19-9-2003 at 04:56
Cu2O and Al


Recently tried some Cu2O (commercial, from potters supplies) and Al (200 mesh). This uses a very large amount of Cu2O, I found (about 200 g total).
Anyway, the reaction (after ignition with sparkling candles was very slow), emitting large amounts of smoke (orange-ish, like a smoke flare), and taking quite some time - so good for presentation purposes :).
After the reaction, I obtained a large block of solid copper, which, upon cooling, forms concentric rings of rainbow colours (this hast gone into my arts collection :) )
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[*] posted on 4-11-2003 at 07:12


A mixture of a reactive metal in the elemental state and a more noble metal in an oxidized state is a thermite mixture.

The reactive metal reduces the noble metal to it's elemental state, whereas the reactive metal is being oxidized (mostly to its oxide).




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[*] posted on 11-11-2003 at 09:24


here is an easy one that I figured out by accident 2:1 magnesium to lead dioxide from car battries the reaction is explosive and if you you fill a small aspirin bottle with this powder and stick a nice fuse into the powder it makes a very nice loud explosion
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[*] posted on 15-12-2003 at 15:22
Thermites with CuO, MnO2 and Fe3O4


Some updates on exotic thermites:

I recently purchased some CuO, MnO2 and Fe3O4 (and others, but didnt get round to testing them).

Using 200 mesh Al, I found CuO to be by far the most vigorous. It is set off by mere sparks (be careful, I nearly got my ass burned), and burns (unconfined) with a great whoosh type sound, and vaporises all the products, i.e. no residue is left. Burning time is too short to measure. On the video camera it happens within a few frames. Will test this on occasion in a confined manner. Anyway, i tried the same with homemade CuO, and the results were by far not as vigorous... I am still struggling to explain why, after all I used clean reagents, and heated the homemade CuO to a dull red glow....

The MnO2 is hard to set off (compared to the CuO), but the reaction is also very fast, and leaves very little residue. But by no means it can be compared to the CuO. I was hoping MnO2 would be very powerful as it is an oxidiser in itself (I know, nearly every oxide is with respect to Al, but it's definitely a strong oxidant ), but still it doesnt compare at all to CuO... It's only a little faster than with Fe2O3.

Fe3O4 was the slowest, the reaction took up to 15 seconds, with lots of sparks/molten metal globules spraying everywhere, it looks very pretty but is not very vigorous. Definitely top choice for showing a nice pyro effect.

I have a few more to test, which is NiO, Sb2O3, V2O5, Cr2O3 and ZrSiO4... where I am not sure the latter will work :( - but always wanted to lay my hands on some zirconium!


[Edited on 15-12-2003 by chemoleo]




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