MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
Looking For Amyl Alcohol (x-pentanol) Source
I've been looking online for a relatively cheap source of x-pentanol to no avail.
I plan on using it to create amyl nitrite (which isomer is commonly used for this? Isoamyl?) and probably some amyl esters. I found 500mL of ACS
grade on ScienceStuff.com for $33.86. Also, "† Subject to a UPS hazardous material surcharge of $20.00 per shipment." so that's pretty much out of
the question. $55 + S&H for 500mL of a simple alcohol? No way. Also, they don't sell "hazardous chemicals" to individuals so.... If amyl
alcohol is hazardous I should be dead by comparison to the things I've been around.
I really don't need ACS grade although it would be nice to have (just not at $33+S&H for 500mL!) Really, USP or even technical grade would be
fine. What contaminants (besides other isomers) would technical grade be likely to contain?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
It indeed is isoamyl alcohol you want if you are out to make poppers.
The usual OTC substitute commonly used in the alt lifestyle community is butyl nitrite (video head cleaner).
Both are highly flammable, both smell like the unwashed jock of a less than hygienic Albanian wrestler, and both are very hard on your cardiovascular
system.
Without a fume hood, forget it.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
Well, I'm not sure what "poppers" are but I intend to create amyl nitrite for use in case of cyanide poisoning. Are poppers used recreationally? Are
they illegal?
Who would want to take a vasodialator for recreation? Just seems like it would be unpleasant.
EDIT
I meant to post this in "Reagents and Apparatus Aquisition". I request a move, please.
Also, would other alkyl nitrites (ethyl, methyl, isopropyl, butyl, isobutyl) work as cyanide antidotes? I have access to all of these alcohols. If
not, why (biologically speaking).
[Edited on 4-12-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
ScienceGeek
Hazard to Others
Posts: 151
Registered: 22-1-2008
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
|
|
Look it up on Wikipedia!
Legality varies from country to country. In most cases it is allowed to have, but not distribute.
Yes, it is used recreationally, especielly in the gay community because it relaxes the sphincter and enhances sexual arousal.
I have got to admit that I have tried it once, and it wasn't directly unpleasant, but not pleasant either. As it is a vasodialtor, blood- vessels in
your brain dilates as well, giving you a massive headache.
According to my sources, Amyl Nitrite is not the only antidote to Cyanide poisoning.
A made some Isopropyl Nitrite to use as cyanide poisoning antidote! It is really easy to make, and the alcohol, Ispropanol, can be bought OTC.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
All nitrite inhalants can be fatal if combined with the use of Viagra by the way.
Nitrite inhalants are also used in the fetish community, not just on the gay side.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
From above:
"Also, would other alkyl nitrites (ethyl, methyl, isopropyl, butyl, isobutyl) work as cyanide antidotes? I have access to all of these alcohols. If
not, why (biologically speaking)."
ScienceGeek says isopropyl nitrite will work. Is this true?
Also, this seems to be the easiest cyanide antidote to acquire/synthesize.
Some other antidotes listed on Wikipedia. Most have citations/sources.
"The United States standard cyanide antidote kit first uses a small inhaled dose of amyl nitrite, followed by intravenous sodium nitrite, followed by
intravenous sodium thiosulfate."
hydroxycobalamin
4-Dimethylaminophenol
Cobalt salts (aren't these toxic!?)
a solution of ferrous sulfate in aqueous citric acid, and aqueous sodium carbonate (apparently this only works for cyanide ingestion and can cause
iron poisoning)
"Evidence from animal experiments suggests that coadministration of glucose protects against cobalt toxicity associated with the antidote agent
dicobalt edetate. For this reason, glucose is often administered alongside this agent (e.g. in the formulation 'Kelocyanor')."
"One study found a reduction in cyanide toxicity in mice when the cyanide was first mixed with glucose[3]"
The PDF that contains this information is posted on the Wikipedia page but appears to be in Spanish.
[Edited on 4-12-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
ScienceGeek
Hazard to Others
Posts: 151
Registered: 22-1-2008
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
|
|
Speaking biologically:
The cyanide ion works as an irreversible inhibitor of cytochrome oxidase. this prevents transport of electrons from the enxyme to oxygen, causing
inhibition in the production of ATP for energy.
It is the Nitrite anion that oxidise the iron in Haemoglobin from ferrous to ferric, and therefore the cation shouldn't matter.
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Cobalt compounds as antidotes for hydrocyanic acid
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=17...
while cobalt and iron are toxic, they are much less so than cyanide, larger doses usually results in vomiting which gets rid of the salts before too
much is absorbed. Chronic poisoning is a different story, don't put cobalt chloride on your eggs every day.
|
|
|
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
Well, then a quick inhalation of an akyl nitrite followed by an IV injection of a alkali(earth) nitrite should do the trick. The only problem is I
hate needles and I probably couldn't hit a vein in such a situation. Nobody else in my household knows how. I have an IV kit (you know the ones that
hospitals use that leaves a cathoder in your vein) but it would be impracticle, uncomfortable and possibly overkill to have an IV in your hand while
performing experiments.
I suppose I shall make up a syringe of NaNO2 USP and train my girlfriend to give IV injections just in case.
Would IM be fast enough?
I know this sounds like overkill but if you have the means and it COULD POSSIBLY mean the difference between life and death then, why not?
EDIT
I wonder if the cobalt compounds would be quick enough for HCN exposure if ingested? I'm going to read the paper now...
[Edited on 4-12-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5102
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It makes a lot more sense to not inhale cyanide in the first place.
|
|
|
Contrabasso
Hazard to Others
Posts: 277
Registered: 2-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Having a cannula in your vein before you risk exposure to cyanides is a dangerous overkill. You are more likely to suffer from an infection due to the
cannula going directly from outside to the blood vessel.
Work very carefully! I'm still around 30 years after working with 100gallon plating tanks of zinc cyanide. PH control, ventilation, clean conditions,
fresh overalls, Gloves face visor.
The antidote then was a two pot mix of Fe (II) and Fe (III) salts. tip Glass A into Glass B and drink immediately both glasses were sealed but half
full so A into B or B into A didnt matter. Theory then was that any ingested cyanide had LOTS of iron to complex with before it crossed the stomach
wall.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
@MagicJigPipe: If I asked my wife to stay ready with an injection of some 'vague' stuff because I start experimenting with cyanides, then she would
make a lot of trouble about that. She would simply say: don't do that experiment! And she is quite enthusiastic about my chem-hobby, she is not the
type of chemophobia-person.
All I want to say with this is that you should reconsider those cyanide experiments. Doing the experiment of ScienceGeek of making isopropylnitrite is
a nice experiment on its own (another nice one is making methyl nitrite), but not for making a cyanide antidote.
|
|
|
markgollum
Hazard to Self
Posts: 53
Registered: 21-2-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I would agree with woelen and contrabasso on this subject.
If you are not very well equipped to safely work with the material then dont do this kind of chemistry.
This means a well designed glove box for HCN as well as a suitable mask/rebreather/airline from appropriate compressor. For cyanide salts this means
pH control, gloves, mask and good ventilation.
But the cleanliness, eye protection, and ventilation should be employed whenever anything remotely hazardous is worked with.
I once had an elderly chem prof that used to drink coffee in the lab, one day he absent mindedly started to drink from a beaker containing a cyanide
salt. The moment he realized this he dumped a lot of FeCl3 + base in a beaker with water and then drank the iron oxide. He puked a lot but is still
around.!!
|
|
|
Contrabasso
Hazard to Others
Posts: 277
Registered: 2-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you cannot plan to use cyanides carefully the simply don't.
The damage you would do to your chem hobby and the damage you would do the our chem hobby .....
If you tell your life partner that you are really milliseconds from death you will find chemicals down the loo and glassware crushed LONG before you
start. You may also have a 100% share of the duvet as she moves back to her mother's and serves divorce papers.
Is it really worth that? Are you really going to push the frontiers of scientific knowledge. If I was to need to do something this hazardous I would
want competent paramedics around not a housewife. I'd also want a full hazard, risk and error analysis, and a full method statement writing. I'd also
find a working breathing aparatus and do the job in a fume hood wearing well chosen ppe.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
MJP:
Do you have a hood or not?
No hood, don't make HCN.
Who told you that inorganic nitrites were efficacious by injection?
Wrong.
The older and less effective antidotes, used together, were sodium thiosulfate nad methylene blue.
Much better to have a cylinder of medical oxygen and a breather.
Organic nitrite inhalant is OK but O2 should be administered.
You don't need to inject anything.
Much better to work safely in a hood and not breathe the shit in first place.' A SCBA is also a very good idea. No SCBA? Get yourself some SCUBA gear.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
Thanks everyone for your concern but allow me to explain.
This is only for extreme, freak accidents. Anything can happen in the lab even using the most advanced equipment and safety procedures or else they
wouldn't have cyanide kits in professional labs where cyanides are handled. I simply want to have ALL of my bases covered before working with such a
notorious inhalation poison. I think it would be potentially detrimental to our cause NOT to take these steps even when using all of the proper
safety equipment. Better to be overly safe than sorry (well, you can't be sorry if you're dead but you know what I mean). Saying "just don't breathe
it in" is assuming that everything always goes as planned.
That is certainly not unreasonable, is it?
With the "hood" I have now I am not confident using HCN however, I planned on working with it once I get a decent one (believe it or not a person I
went to school with says he's going to give me a small hood that his lab is getting rid of soon for reasons I don't know).
| Quote: |
Much better to have a cylinder of medical oxygen and a breather.
|
What a coincidence. I just ordered 4 old Medical E O2 cylinders and they just got here 3 days ago. I'm having 2 of them hydro-tested as we speak.
About the NaNO2 Sauron:
http://www.buyemp.com/product/1124401.html
So, I'm not so sure that it's not used or useful. It may be overkill but it's better to over-do-it than to under-do-it, IMO.
On a minor note:
| Quote: |
Having a cannula in your vein before you risk exposure to cyanides is a dangerous overkill. You are more likely to suffer from an infection due to the
cannula going directly from outside to the blood vessel.
|
Actually, it's the kind where the tube that normally goes to the electrolyte solution can be "turned off" so the only access to the outside is through
the valve that the needle connects to.
[Edited on 4-12-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
