| Pages:
1
2 |
ShadowWarrior4444
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 25-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sunlight on a pure white wall.
|
|
Sword Forging!
The ancient and quite useful art of the bladesmith has been on my mind as of late; though the practice is continued by modern artisans, its evolution
has been hampered by the invention of firearms. That said, I've been curious as to how multifunctional/durable a sword could be forged using modern
technology:
First off: The core material, usually steel, it may be interesting to forge a sword from an aluminum alloy, or at least use aluminum to reduce the
weight of certain parts potentially improving balance. Aluminum-chromium alloys have been of interest to me personally for use as a core material.
Second: Potential coating to improve hardness and sharpness-- Is it possible to coat the edge with rhenium diboride?
Third: Interesting effects--
Incorporating piezoelectric materials into the core, or near the edge in such a way that they would generate a charge when striking an object with the
sword. (This may necessitate a protocol to ensure the wielder is not shocked.)
[HV capacitors linked to positive and negative conducting bands on either side of the sword may be fun too.]
Incorporating radioisotope thermal generators into the sword, thereby maintaining it at quite a high temperature.
Incorporating strong beta-emitters into channels within the sword, along with some way to direct/utilize the high-energy electrons.
Incorporating capillary tubing to the edge or tip of sword from a container within the hilt. (A personal favorite to put in the chamber would bromine
water, or bromine itself.)
It is interesting to think that many swords traditionally described in myth and fantasy may be quite easy to construct using modern technology. A
glowing radiothermal sword certainly evokes mythological imagery, and would likely be quite a deterrent to burglars.
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
Go down to your neighborhood nucleide store ("I'm sure that in 1985 plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but in 1955 it's a little hard
to come by!") and slice off a hunk of polonium. The residue on the blade will glow blue as it ionizes the air around it, while the blade heats up
(until the polonium evaporates / spalls off) due to the large heat output of polonium (140W/g). A few grams sealed inside throughout the blade would
suffice to keep it hot. (I would beware of stress, BTW, as you'd probably get brittle iron polonide at the interface, especially with diffusion at
temperature.) Polonium is quite poisonous, so it would be quite deadly to be struck with such a sword.
Note that such a sword would cool off relatively quickly (months); you'd need quite a bit more, say, 238Pu (which NASA uses in their RTGs) for a
longer-lasting one (decades). If not coated in Po, it wouldn't be nearly as poisonous either; it's not nearly so
fear-striking-into-the-heart-of-your-enemies to tell them they'll die of bone cancer in twenty years...
High-energy electrons from beta sources aren't very useful, except for glowing, which alphas also do and with less hazard to the holder. Gammas
sterilize anything in range, and would serve better as a WMD cast into the fortress via ballista or catapult.
I have *no* idea where you're trying to go with the electric idea.
As far as metallurgy, the ancients weren't far off. I've made knives from plain carbon steel and OCS (Old Chevy Spring, typically ASTM 5160, a chrome
steel), both alloys that are still in widespread use today (if not always for knives  ). Carbon steel in particular is hard enough to make files out of -- it's tried and true, ancient and modern. Corrosion resistance is
important and so most kitchen knives are made from 400 series stainless steel.
There are some specialty alloys which have much better edge holding and etc. All of them are steel alloys, and no other metals can compare, not
titanium and certainly not aluminum (there aren't any aluminum alloys any stronger than medium carbon steel). Ceramics certainly beat steel on
hardness and edge holding, but are all brittle.
Incidentially, I've heard of diamond (or diamond-coated?) scalpels.
Tim
|
|
|
kilowatt
Hazard to Others
Posts: 322
Registered: 11-10-2007
Location: Montana
Member Is Offline
Mood: nitric
|
|
| Quote: |
All of them are steel alloys, and no other metals can compare |
There are some nickel and cobalt based superalloys, mostly proprietary, that are used in a few high end specialty knives.
Whatever the base metal, ordered metal matrix composites containing silicon carbide, carbon fiber, or other fibers, are extremely strong and tough,
and retain much of the flexibility of the metal along with much of the great tensile strength of the fibers. They could also utilize the hardness of
the fibers if they were exposed at the edge. These materials are much higher performance than any other material known to date, and are used so far
only in a few specialty high strength applications (some fighter jet landing gears and other parts are made of a titanium/silicon carbide fiber
composite).
A blade consisting of a center laminate of steel or other hard alloy metal matrix composite, and outer laminates of a titanium or beryllium metal
matrix composite for strength would probably be near the pinnacle of what can be done now.
[Edited on 15-5-2008 by kilowatt]
The mind cannot decide the truth; it can only find the truth.
|
|
|
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
Corrosion resistance is important and so most kitchen knives are made from 400 series stainless steel.
|
I'd like to point out that corrosion resistance is unimportant in a sword. A good sword should be well taken care of. It should be oiled on a
regular basis to prevent any rust. If oiled and stored properly, there's no issue. Besides, idiots who are incapable of taking proper care of a
sword obviously shouldn't have large knives to begin with.
That said, 1075 steel makes excellent swords.
|
|
|
ShadowWarrior4444
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 25-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sunlight on a pure white wall.
|
|
| Quote: | | I have *no* idea where you're trying to go with the electric idea. |
The electrical additions are some of the most fun! Take for example the HV capacitors connected to positive and negative conductive strips on the
sword. Should you strike anything electrically conductive with the sword, it will discharge the capacitors through that material. If its metal, it
will make quite a large spark. (When using, say 400v from a photoflash electrolytic capacitor.) The capacitor could be charged from a 1v-to-400v
inverter (which can be made the size of a small coin, and is indeed found in most disposable cameras.) The 1v power supply itself could be a
rechargeable battery that is continuously recharged by some form of motion powered generator. (A similar device would be the wrist watched powered by
arm motion.) Peltiers in the grip might work too.
As for the piezo or triboelectric method, the mechanical stress from the sword strike would be converted into HV electricity, like a grill igniter.
If you went for the extreme-cleverness route, you could split the sword so that one side was negative, then a dielectric, then an internal positive
core, then another dielectric, then the other side at negative. You could then add an LC-inversion circuit through the hilt, and perhaps provide a
space at the tip of the sword for a TEA laser cavity. When triggering the LC circuit, it would rapidly ionize the air generating a UV laser. I'm also
fairly certain that the cap could be discharged in other clever ways too.
Another entertaining bit might be to add an avalanche or zener diode into the 400v configuration--this way it will not discharge before the cap is
fully charged, allowing to spark repeatedly even if it remains in contact with the conductive surface. It would also allow your average Sacrificial
Goat to continually jump and twitch even after it's been stabbed. Certainly a good party trick.
|
|
|
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
If I had a nice sword, I would definitely not be hitting it on anything metal!
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
ShadowWarrior4444
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 25-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sunlight on a pure white wall.
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
If I had a nice sword, I would definitely not be hitting it on anything metal! |
This may be considered a very clever double entendre. *smirks*
Though, if the sword were nice enough, it wouldn't matter what you hit with it.
|
|
|
gregxy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 421
Registered: 26-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
One of my other hobbies is building fighting robots
(battlebots). The favorite alloy for making spinning
weapons that hit other metal objects is S7 tool steel,
usually hardened to RC 52 or so.
My current robot has a 36" X 4" X 3/8" S7 blade that spins
up to about 2000 rpm. It can hit a 20 lb section of steel
girder and knock it across the yard. It makes a deep gash
in the girder, but the blade is untouched.
For more on fighting robots look here:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/THERFL/messages/?start=Start+...
|
|
|
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
It's been my experience that if you hit something (no matter what except for maybe diamond) hard enough against a hard surface, it will be damaged
even if only slightly.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
If I had a nice sword, I would definitely not be hitting it on anything metal! |
My best sword (from Badger Blades) is guaranteed to be able to cut through a car, washing machine, refrigerator, etc. without breaking. If it does
break, the smith will replace it. The only things that void the warranty are taking a plasma cutter to it or running it over with a freight train--or
other intentional destruction along these lines.
They actually give demos of the swords at the Renaissance Festival here by selecting a random sword off the wall or racks and taking a good hard swing
at an anvil with it. They have two anvils on display know that have been cut in two by repeated blows. The swords suffer no damage whatsoever. They
also have a chunk of a car cut into pieces by a customer with one of their swords.
They, of course, use the 1075 steel I mentioned earlier. Sure, they rust if you're a moron and don't oil them, but they're tough enough without the
need for fancy alloys or laminated metals.
|
|
|
tentacles
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-11-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The real quesiton is are those real anvils, or are they ASO? (Anvil Shaped Objects) Real anvils are solid tool steel and should be around the hardness
of fully hardened 1075 steel. Anvil shaped objects are soft iron and could be cut in half with a butter knife.
|
|
|
kilowatt
Hazard to Others
Posts: 322
Registered: 11-10-2007
Location: Montana
Member Is Offline
Mood: nitric
|
|
He is being sarcastic. A good sword would just bounce off all those items (and chip the edge) if it didn't break. There's a reason firemen and other
emergency personnel use axes and saws instead of swords for chopping through stuff.
The mind cannot decide the truth; it can only find the truth.
|
|
|
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Actually, no, I am not being sarcastic.
|
|
|
kilowatt
Hazard to Others
Posts: 322
Registered: 11-10-2007
Location: Montana
Member Is Offline
Mood: nitric
|
|
Did you pay extra for the premium sword quenched in elf blood or something? No mortal sword can cut through a car or washing machine. It can cut
through the thin sheet metal skin no doubt, but cannot cleave it in two, and the claim that it will not sustain any damage is ludicrous. As was said
about the anvil, a proper anvil is nearly as hard as a sword anyway (on the surface). I have personally tried to chop up a block of lead with a maul,
which is heavy and very sharp and has far more cutting penetration than any sword (why do you think axes and mauls are the primary chopping tools used
for thousands of years until today while swords are used only for martial arts and display?). I swung as hard as I could and it barely went in an
inch. Replace that soft lead block with hardened steel, and that heavy maul with a lightweight broadsword, and you will barely make a dent.
Swords are probably the most over-estimated of all human creations. They don't have a fraction of the mythical cutting power they are often claimed
to, cutting through steel and such.
[Edited on 17-5-2008 by kilowatt]
The mind cannot decide the truth; it can only find the truth.
|
|
|
E-tech
Harmless
Posts: 36
Registered: 30-5-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I've often wondered about claims of edged weapons cutting cars in half.
I've never been attacked by a car.
Perhaps hafting glass or flint microliths into a suitable material would provide a suitable sword like blade?
It was done for scythes in neolithic/copper age in Egypt (the stone blades would take on a "sickle sheen" from repeated use), and Pacific Islanders (I
think) were found to have made sword like weapons by hafting a row of sharks teeth into the edge of a long wooden stick.
|
|
|
nodrog19
Harmless
Posts: 38
Registered: 29-5-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Back to the injection thing. What about 70% H2O2 and a MnO2 suspension in seperate tubes? ouch!!
The Nazi's killed some jews that way.
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by nodrog19
The Nazi's killed some jews that way. |
>.>
Umm, why exactly would you want to add that?
|
|
|
nodrog19
Harmless
Posts: 38
Registered: 29-5-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Im just saying it works. Hitler was a horrible person.
If i offended someone im really sorry.
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Damascus blade steel
A few years ago, there was an article in Scientific American about the metallurgy of sword-forging, written jointly by a metallurgist and a
blacksmith, particularly with reference to medieval Damascus swords. The presence of trace metals such as Mn, V, Co, Ni, Cr, as well as the
heat-treatment, was critical.
P.S. the article was by J. D. Verhoeven, and appeared in Scientific American for January 2001, pages 74-79, titled "The Mystery Of Damascus Blades".
The name of his blacksmith was Pendray. There was another related article in Scientific American, "Damascus Steels", February 1985, pages 94-99.
Apparently Mo, Nb, Cu, Si were other vital trace metals needed, along with a fairly high C content. "Wootz steel" is the term used for the steel.
Here are some other references on Damascus blades:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.htm...
(the most important article - J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch, 1998. The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades. JOM
50(9):58-64. )
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.knives/2007-...
http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf (re Wootz steel)
http://www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf (Metallurgy For Bladesmiths)
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Damascus-steel
http://www.damaszener.de/PDFs/Bibliographie.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S104458030100184...
http://www.answers.com/topic/damascus-steel
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Legendary_Swords_Sharpness
http://dark.unitz.ca/~gthomas/myweb4/replication_of_wootz.ht...
http://metalrg.iisc.ernet.in/~wootz/heritage/WOOTZ.htm
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/555400-GNtaem/webvi...
(Ultrahigh Carbon Steels, Damascus Steel, & Superplasticity)
http://www.dolcevoce.com/engineering/The%20History%20of%20Qu...
http://www.shopsint.com/Bath___Body-baath-damascus-damascus_...
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientweapons/a/damascus_st...
(and references therein)
[Edited on 25-6-08 by JohnWW]
|
|
|
S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enhanced
|
|
Some may say that they've got Damascene steel all figured out. I bet that a lot of people have said this over the years and were never heard from
again when someone said "OK, let's see it, then".
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
Recent research (~3 yrs. old I think) suggests very interesting contents such as carbon nanotubes and polymerized buckyballs!
Tim
|
|
|
grndpndr
National Hazard
Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Give me an old fashioned traditionaly made japanese samurai sword.Had to be the finest sword produced to this day unless we can discuss 'Light
sabers'LOL Folded and forge welded 16,000 times before finished in order to distribute the carbon and rid the steel of impurities.This produced a
blade with a softer ductile core to resist impact with a far harder edge specially heat treated with the distinctive markings a result of the folding
process/heat treat and similar to an arab Damascus blade with the soft and hard alternating layers for excellent flex ibility w/o bending
/cracking.not to mention the superior geometry of the blade and handle in effect multiplying its cutting force many times over.
The Japanese Blade: Technology and Manufacture.
[Edited on 19-10-2008 by grndpndr]
|
|
|
Belle
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 22-3-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
While this is an older post... I would like to clarify a few things. As a former Badger Blades employee and current owner of many Badgers (as well as
Starfire and Legacy Forge blades) The things above are true... but not.
Badger Blades does in fact bang on anvils to demonstrate the strength, cutting edge, and flexibility of our blades. It is a 5 lb UNTEMPERED anvil such
as those found in any Harbor Freight (where we usually get ours). We do not, nor have we ever seen, one of our anvils cut in half with one blow.
However, we do not replace the anvil each weekend, so eventually.... we do get into its center and all of the sudden we have two halves!. As cool as
it may sound to say we chop anvils in half.... our swords are cool enough, and functional enough, that we willingly explain how.
As for the washers, dryers, stoves, cars etc.... yes, they do cut through them.
We often did it in my back yard. 
The thing is... straight swords were designed to be used in fights with opponents wearing metal armor. They were not wearing 8 inches of steel
plating.. it was thin and light to allow some (though not much) mobility. (To clarify, curved blades were designed in areas where people wore leather
armor. Curved blades cut, while straight blades hack. Middle eastern, Asian, etc blades are curved and SHARP where straight blades were only EDGED.)
Badger Blades designs their straight blades to hack through metal armor (i.e. sheet metal). This is what washers, dryers, stoves, and cars (and more)
are made of. We do not claim to be able to slice through the tempered engine block of a car (though it may be possible with months of dedication),
however, you can (and are encouraged to) hack through any appliances you legally own. The warranty covers breakage during most forms of use, abuse,
and stupidity...but not intentional breakage (torches, vice grips, and trains are all considered intentional.)
To cover a few other posts quickly.... Damascus steel had a very specific content that people have been trying to replicate for forever. If they ever
actually do, it STILL won't be Damascus steel. And anyone showing you a sword or dagger with the cool looking lines on it calling it Damascus should
be smacked. Damascus steel came from DAMASCUS! The cool lines came from the process of folding the blade (now most commonly re-created with acid
etching).
And no one folded a blade 16,000 times. It would shatter into little tiny bits.
Back when swords were the best defense, steel was not available in nice, handy bars with chemically guaranteed consistency. You started with a hunk of
it and you beat it out flat. You then re-heated it, folded it, and pounded it some more. This spread the carbon more evenly throughout the length of
the steel. Eventually, you fashioned a sword out of it.
HOWEVER, you didn't fold it 16,000 times. This is a math issue the ignorant don't seem to understand. (And before you get all up in arms, ignorant =
unknowing, not stupid.) To explain:
You take a hunk of steel... pound it out. You now have ONE layer of steel.
You fold it and pound it out again... You now have TWO layers of steel.
Do it again and you have three right? Nope! You have FOUR.
Again and you have EIGHT
Again and you have SIXTEEN
While this may seem a redundant repetition, the number of layers increases exponentially. After only ten FOLDS you have 512 layers. After twenty
folds, you have 524,288 layers. Each time you heat and beat steel you weaken it. If you folded steel 16,000 times, you would have little metal bits
laying around.
New methods allow us to create the sword shape from properly carbonized steel and then temper it ONCE. The carbon content and the quenching method
determine how hard, flexible, and sturdy your blade is.
As a final note, for the safety of all, 220 and 440 (the stainless steels) are great when tempered for kitchen knives. However, if someone sells you a
tempered stainless steel sword, please do not bang it on anything. Hang it on the wall and let it be pretty for you. Tempered stainless steel does not
have the ability to be flexible when struck. Instead of a slight wobble, you will get the "glass" effect, and could seriously damage yourself or
others with the flying shards of metal.
|
|
|
bquirky
Hazard to Others
Posts: 316
Registered: 22-10-2008
Location: Perth Western Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
some kind of pyrotechnics in the sword blade might be fun perhaps some kind of low power substance that gives a nice satisfying flash when it gets
whacked against something
you could go all out and get yourself a sealed CO2 laser tube off ebay and build a small short duty cycle power supply with an off the shelf HV
inverter and a lithium battery pack and make a pretend light saber! sorting out the optics to get a nice tight culminated beam at that wavelength
might be fiddly but you could burn your name in most walls like Zorro !
Just don't run the tube too long in one go without cooling fluid or you will damage the electrodes & mirrors.
|
|
|
chief
National Hazard
Posts: 630
Registered: 19-7-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
@Belle: Are there any real Damascus-swords left anywhere on the world, eg. in Exhibitions/Museums etc. ?
Then: When you cut through a oven, do you also cut through the massive cooking-plate ?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
