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greenlight
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Oh no, damn welds....Hasn't this happened to you before previously as well with another test?
At least you know the cones function fine. That's still a whole lotta depth for a 19mm diameter SC, I would be pleased.
Will you be repeating with a new target to find the actual full penetration?
[Edited on 14-10-2016 by greenlight]
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
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NeonPulse
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Nice! Looks like we are getting good at this.
I was actually thinking of using the lost wax casting method to form a cone out of silver. It would be interesting to test I think, just never got
around to it yet.
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nux vomica
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Quote: Originally posted by greenlight  | Oh no, damn welds....Hasn't this happened to you before previously as well with another test?
At least you know the cones function fine. That's still a whole lotta depth for a 19mm diameter SC, I would be pleased.
Will you be repeating with a new target to find the actual full penetration?
[Edited on 14-10-2016 by greenlight] |
Thanks greenlight yep broken welds again thats what you get for being a tightarse and useing bits to make a target up.
Yes im pretty rapt with the result the copper casting machined ok so i had the feeling it would work.
I am going to make some more etn tomorrow so i can have a go again soon on a one piece target. 
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nux vomica
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| Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse | Nice! Looks like we are getting good at this.
I was actually thinking of using the lost wax casting method to form a cone out of silver. It would be interesting to test I think, just never got
around to it yet. |
Thanks neon pulse .
Lost wax casting a silver cone should work well, would work ok on Werewolfs as well.
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Zyxel
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How to remove plasticizer from my plastiqe.I dont know which type of plasticizer is used in this military plastiqe.I was tried with nitro thinner but
it disolve petn.I will try next time with pure pressed petn wiht aluminium or magnesium cone.
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NeonPulse
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zyxel | | How to remove plasticizer from my plastiqe.I dont know which type of plasticizer is used in this military plastiqe.I was tried with nitro thinner but
it disolve petn.I will try next time with pure pressed petn wiht aluminium or magnesium cone. |
Try using a petroleum based solvent like white spirit or even petrol this should do the trick.this will dissolve the PIB rubber that is highly likely
to be the binder, but not the explosive.
let the mix settle for a while and just decant off the excess solvent and evaporate the rest.
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nux vomica
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zyxel | | How to remove plasticizer from my plastiqe.I dont know which type of plasticizer is used in this military plastiqe.I was tried with nitro thinner but
it disolve petn.I will try next time with pure pressed petn wiht aluminium or magnesium cone. |
Nah i wouldnt bother if the binder is less than 15% Zyxel you just need a slight redesign of your setup .
This is the setup i used to get 78mm depth its only a sketch but it shows everything you need to know
Cheers Nux.
[Edited on 17-10-2016 by nux vomica]
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Thraxx
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It seems me, that the explosive for shaped charges with highest possible VoD between 8 -9000 m/s without acetanhydrid is possible prepare so:
1. Step- prepare the hexamin dinitrate HD and dry it.
2. step -prepare Dinitropentamethylenetetramin DPT :0,64g of HD + 19,5ml H2SO4+3,9ml formaldehyd (5-15C to 40g of ice,neutralised NH4OH)
3. step-like described by A.F.McKay et al,Can J Res 27B,462-468 (1949):
The DPT to solution of NH4NO3 diluted in 99%HNO3 and heated to 70-75 C for 15 min and throw it into ice.There will be mix of 30%HMX and 52%RDX.
--
This mix with negative O2 bilance can be melted with ETN (prepared with 100%HNO3).
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]
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Microtek
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I don't think adding ETN would be a good idea, if the highest possible VOD and Pcj is the goal. If you can press a HMX/RDX mix to a reasonable
density, you would get more penetration than with a melt cast ETN/RDX/HMX composition. Blast effects would undoubtedly be greater with ETN, however.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by Thraxx | It seems me, that the explosive for shaped charges with highest possible VoD between 8 -9000 m/s without acetanhydrid is possible prepare so:
1. Step- prepare the hexamin dinitrate HD and dry it.
2. step -prepare Dinitropentamethylenetetramin DPT :0,64g of HD + 19,5ml H2SO4+3,9ml formaldehyd (5-15C to 40g of ice,neutralised NH4OH)
3. step-like described by A.F.McKay et al,Can J Res 27B,462-468 (1949):
The DPT to solution of NH4NO3 diluted in 99%HNO3 and heated to 70-75 C for 15 min and throw it into ice.There will be mix of 30%HMX and 52%RDX.
--
This mix with negative O2 bilance can be melted with ETN (prepared with 100%HNO3).
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx] |
Isn't H2SO4 detrimental to N-nitramines like RDX?
Except if next to an electron-withdrawing group (-CO-, -NO2) N-nitramines are destroyed by conc H2SO4...
this is why RDX or HMX or other alkyl nitramines aren't done from H2SO4/HNO3 but with conc HNO3, NO2(+) salts or HNO3/Ac2O...
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Thraxx
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I have heard about the incompatibility between RDX and sulf.acid,but I red by Urbanski about W process and there was written,that the spent acid
contain 14% H2SO4 and despite was there 90%yield.May be the decomposition need some time .Reportedly the decomposition of RDX begin by contact with
sulfuric acid over 70%.
To the detonation Velocity-there is need highest possible density.Highest density is in crystal or in the melt.The pressure 2000 kg/cm2 make
loading density 1,6/with over 8000 m/s by Pent or RDX and how to do it against the thin copper?. Therefore it seems me,that better is either melt or
big crystals+liquid explosive like NG (1,59), NIBGTN (1,68),HN Sorbitol (1,58g/cm3)or EGDN (1,48).
((melt ETN 1,6 g/cm3 with 8100 m/s,DINA 1,488 with 7580m/s ))
I did small shaped charges like Axt-bullet into the cartridge shell with pentrinit and it worked well,but not three diameters of steel.I had
suspicion,that a part of pentrinit doesnt its work because the critical diameter in the thinnest parts of charge.
Therefore it seems me,that the better charge will be from crystalised Pent and the space between crystals filled with liquid NG.
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by Thraxx |
I have heard about the incompatibility between RDX and sulf.acid,but I red by Urbanski about W process and there was written,that the spent acid
contain 14% H2SO4 and despite was there 90%yield.May be the decomposition need some time .Reportedly the decomposition of RDX begin by contact with
sulfuric acid over 70%.
To the detonation Velocity-there is need highest possible density.Highest density is in crystal or in the melt.The pressure 2000 kg/cm2 make loading
density 1,6/with over 8000 m/s by Pent or RDX and how to do it against the thin copper?
Therefore it seems me,that better is either melt or big crystals+liquid explosive like NG (1,59), NIBGTN (1,68),HN Sorbitol (1,58g/cm3)or EGDN (1,48).
((melt ETN 1,6 g/cm3 with 8100 m/s,DINA 1,488 with 7580m/s ))
I did small shaped charges like Axt-bullet into the cartridge shell with pentrinit and it worked well,but not three diameters of steel.I had
suspicion,that a part of pentrinit doesnt its work because the critical diameter in the thinnest parts of charge.
Therefore it seems me,that the better charge will be from crystalised Pent and the space between crystals filled with liquid NG.
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The W proces works via an amide (amido-sulfonate) thus as explained a -NH2 with an electron withdrawing group...H2N-SO2-O-K (H2N-SO3K) to be precise.
And this survives the conc H2SO4/HNO3 mix.
The same compound can be used to make potassium dinitramide from conc H2SO4 and conc HNO3 via nitramide (H2N-NO2 again an amide with an electron
withdrawing group).
You of course know that guanidine nitrate also survives H2SO4 by yielding nitroguanidine; just like urea nitrate also survives H2SO4 to yield
nitrourea or N,N'-dinitrourea...both are examples of H2N- linked to electron withdrawing groups.
DINGU and TINGU are also such examples and I think to remember also keto-RDX or diketo-HMX.
One may also think to CH3-NH-CO-H, CH3-NH-CO-CH3, CH3-NH-CO-NH-CH3, CH3-NH-CO-CO-NH-CH3 or cyclo(-CO-NH-CH2-CH2-NH-) (as precursor of EDNA) to be able
to work from H2SO4/HNO3.
One step further H2N-SO2-NH2, H2N-CO-CO-NH2, HN(SO3H)2 or N(SO3H)3 should also be good candidates for RDX/HMX or nitramines from H2SO4/HNO3...
Aniline is also of that kind...aniline nitrate can be reacted with H2SO4 to yield a nitramide that rearranges to a p-nitroaniline
(p-nitroaminobenzene)
O3NH3N-C6H5 --H2SO4--> O2N-NH-C6H5 + H2O
O2N-NH-C6H5 --> H2N-C6H4-NO2
***************************************
About density, yes density of crystals is usually higher than density of melt-cast material (only a few exceptions)...because packing into crystals is
usually better than into anarchic "glass" transition (see density of crystaline silica (quartz) vs silica glass...or density of crystalline rich
polymers vs crystalline poor polymers (of course same polymer on a molecular level))...
But density of "bulk crystals" may or may not be denser than melt-cast material because of voids between crystals...
Melting RDX is bad news since mp > decomposition T°.
The concept of filling the voids with another dense HE is interesting...
ETN seems a good choice for that purpose because of low mp and good detonic properties...also with a slighly >0 OB vs slighly <0 OB of RDX...the
energy output will be better.
Mannitol hexanitrate could also work because even better on detonic parameters than ETN but with more stress (mp 112°C and deflagration T° 185°C).
I would even go for 1,2-dinitro-1,1,2,2-tetramethylol-ethane tetranitrate ester (O2N-O-CH2-)C(-NO2)-C(-NO2)(-CH2-O-NO2)2 a low melting point solid
who's molecule is related to NIBTN (nitroisobutylglycerine trinitrate ester / trimethylolnitromethane trinitrate ester).
[Edited on 1-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Thraxx
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The dinitro tetramethylol ethan tetranitrate is me not known I must take a look in Fedoroff.I hope,that this stuff is more stable than NIBGTN.
//Manitol hexa (?)nitrate made with 65% nitric acid has a m.p. about 82 C,but it is a mix of pentanitrate with 6 % of hexanitrate.Similar is with
ETN-made 20 g E+50ml fuming nitric +100 ml sulfuric acid is really ETN with violant blow ,but the ETN made with weak acids is brizant too,but not of
such power and its blow is weak. PETN from 65% acid is not Petn-look at the m.p.,there is about 90C with decomposition and shoul be about 120 C.//
My idea was satted dilution of solid HE(1) in the liquid HE(2),which is solvent .Such hot dilution fill the charge shell without bubbles and by the
cooling crystalise the solid HE(1) and build the crystal matrix which detonate in crystal velocity and carry away the liquid HE(2) for to detonate of
such high velocity too.NG is able to detonate even 9000 m/s .Necessary is the strongest possible initiation.
Such matrix could be done in gelatine too,but it seems me,that NC make it slow.
In very small shaped charges would be better some nitrated primer.
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Thraxx
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This could be an easy way to HMX:
1.step-DPT
14 g Hexamine + 30 ml (45g)85 % Nitric acid = 5g of DPT 65% +RDX
/Di Cerruione L.A. -Amer.Chem.Appl.(1948)/
2.Step-HMX75%/RDX mix
1 mol DPT +1,6 mol AN + 3,2 mol 68% nitric acid --- 1 h for 60-65 C and to watter.
/ should be in us patent 2678927(1954) and in : CA 49,7606h (1955) author Rait or Reit /
................................................................................................
infos found in Orlova after I did experiment asking answer for question,if the use of Mg nitrate and his doublesalt with Amon.nitrate is usfull
in amateur synt. of RDX.1 mol Hexamin + 6 mol HNO3 == 6 mol H2O + 1 mol RDX + other140,2 + 6x 63,01 == 6x 18,02 + 140,2
+ 378,06 == 108,12 + 1 : 2,7 Orlova wrote,that the RDX is building by 1:4 -1: 500 ratio
with yield by 1:8-1:30 and maximum at 1:26 and optimum temperature 20C .In the range 1:3,5 and 85% HNO3 will appear the DPT .// 1:8=140,2 + 504 (=336
ml) HNO3//vol. 1g : 2,4 ml.Therefore ratio 1:2,7 should make it impossible and therefore the possible activity of nitrates will be visible. Mg (NO3)2
= m.w.= 148,31 anhydrate + 6 waters = 148,31 + 108,12 = 256,43 for hexahydrate. 1 mol of Mg nitrate hexahydrate
for each mol of Hexamine,melted at 165 C and cooled.Example: 1)14 g H + 30 ml (45g)Nitric acid (1:3,2) + melted 20 ml of Mg N anhydrate = 5g2)14 g
H + 30 ml (45g)Nitric acid (1: 3,2) = 4g 3) 14 g H + 30 ml Nitric acid + melted 15 g of Hexahydrate + 15g AN = 1,5g
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]
[Edited on 15-10-2016 by Thraxx]
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greenlight
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Took a small EFP charge I made out because I haven't been out for a while and I am still preparing another 40mm EFP.
This one had a metal casing and metal tamper with a thicker liner to see if it increased the performance for a small size charge.
Liner diameter : 22mm
Liner thickness : approx 1.6-1.7mm thick
Charge material : PETN PE (15 grams)
Target was 10 mm thick steel plate and standoff distance was 80 cm.
Forgot to get photo of charge right before detonation but it was taped to a wood block.
I think the charge weight was a bit too much and overdrove the liner causing it to hit in two spots as can be seen in the photo with a bit of spalling
around the entry hole.
I think if this breakup of the slug had not happened I would have got a full penetration. It nearly made it through and opened the back of the plate
up like a half opened tuna can 
Next one will be the 40mm version against a 19mm target.
[Edited on 18-11-2016 by greenlight]
[Edited on 18-11-2016 by greenlight]
[Edited on 18-11-2016 by greenlight]
 
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by Thraxx | The dinitro tetramethylol ethan tetranitrate is me not known I must take a look in Fedoroff.I hope,that this stuff is more stable than NIBGTN.
//Manitol hexa (?)nitrate made with 65% nitric acid has a m.p. about 82 C,but it is a mix of pentanitrate with 6 % of hexanitrate.Similar is with
ETN-made 20 g E+50ml fuming nitric +100 ml sulfuric acid is really ETN with violant blow ,but the ETN made with weak acids is brizant too,but not of
such power and its blow is weak. PETN from 65% acid is not Petn-look at the m.p.,there is about 90C with decomposition and shoul be about 120 C.//
My idea was satted dilution of solid HE(1) in the liquid HE(2),which is solvent .Such hot dilution fill the charge shell without bubbles and by the
cooling crystalise the solid HE(1) and build the crystal matrix which detonate in crystal velocity and carry away the liquid HE(2) for to detonate of
such high velocity too.NG is able to detonate even 9000 m/s .Necessary is the strongest possible initiation.
Such matrix could be done in gelatine too,but it seems me,that NC make it slow.
In very small shaped charges would be better some nitrated primer. |
Questions:
-Do you type by holding your breath?
-Don't you have a "enter" case on your keyboard?
-Are you trying to write with the minimum space at screen?
It would be much easier for us to read what you post and follow your ideas/point if it was a bit aerated/less compact. 
For the rest your idea is stil good to dissolve and allow for crystallization of two HE but:
1°) the cystallizing HE may be into an unsuitable lower density...since density of crystals often depends onto the solvent...so this is poker...you
have to try and see if you are denser, equally dense or less dense than expected.
2°) Also if each compounds are dissolved into each other, the lowering of the melting point (freezing point lowering see colligative laws) might be
such that the mix doesn't come back to a solid form or to a defined crystalline form (thus anarchic less dense glass transition).
With my proposed process (suspend the high melting HE into a molten low melting HE (a few degrees higher than mp) and cool immediately down
afterwards) you at least know the density you will get.
[Edited on 18-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Thraxx
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"the cystallizing HE may be into an unsuitable lower density...since density of crystals often depends onto the solvent...so this is poker...you have
to try and see if you are denser, equally dense or less dense than expected."
....I thought,that crystal is like melting point typicall for each stuff.If not,then it is a bad message for me.
I thought,that like liquid in the two fase system could be there ETN-NG overfeeded solution/ melt .It is solid stuff at RT,but at abbout 40 C it
melt .Stabilised should it be through amin TMTNA(R Salt) which should be there moreover like fuel.Like crystals trajectory could there be RDX made
through hot aceton solution .
(Shells of very diffrent shapes could be easy made of galvanoplastic copper. Sense of such shaped charges I see in the combination of diffrent
materials under pressure (like jet) or in detonography.The armor pierced function is problem of army.)
picture-ETN/NG melt
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nux vomica
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Just cut up a target that i fired a 19mm shaped charge at and found that either i had too big a charge or haveing two different explosive together
isnt a good idea.
The bottom around the cone was 14 grams of cast 2/5 ratio etn - ptn mix as used by neon pulse and Mr anonymous and the top charge was 12 grams of
petn plastique,maybe that was a bit too much filling looking back now.
By the look of the copper spray on top of the target something went wrong half way through the jet travel as the hole is perfect and the carrot didnt
enter the hole.
Penertration was around 36mm and hole was around 3.5 mm dia, the rodsticking through the target is 3.2 mm dia.
     
Oh well at least ive got some more cones ive been working on.
  
Cheers Nux.
[Edited on 5-12-2016 by nux vomica]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Give me a feeling of deja-vu 
Gandalf hat
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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NeonPulse
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Iv'e not had a problem with the 2-5 cast ratio. This was devised by mr anonymous himself. The last one I tried the result was pretty good. The whole
charge was homogeneous as far as I know, with the PETN of equal sized particles and density and just enough ETN to keep it nicely suspended. Too
little ETN and the cast seems dry but too much and there's a layer of ETN on top which could ruin the wave. I think it is a promising filler if only
it wasn't so dangerous to make bigger shots....
Anyway here's one of my latest shots. i decided to use PLX as a filler mostly because there was a debate between myself and a friend as to weather or
not PLX would form a decent jet. of course i knew it would from experience but had to prove my point.
https://vimeo.com/193344377
I just wish i had of used more steel plates since this jet was not stopped by 10 X 8mm plus a 20mm slab on top.
I remember starting shaped charges and looking at a couple of steel sheets and wondering if i could make a decent enough cone to pass through them,
Nowadays, it's Gee, i wonder how many plates could i get this cone through?
Nice cones there! are they cast copper?
[Edited on 6-12-2016 by NeonPulse]
[Edited on 6-12-2016 by NeonPulse]
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nux vomica
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| Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse | Iv'e not had a problem with the 2-5 cast ratio. This was devised by mr anonymous himself. The last one I tried the result was pretty good. The whole
charge was homogeneous as far as I know, with the PETN of equal sized particles and density and just enough ETN to keep it nicely suspended. Too
little ETN and the cast seems dry but too much and there's a layer of ETN on top which could ruin the wave. I think it is a promising filler if only
it wasn't so dangerous to make bigger shots....
Anyway here's one of my latest shots. i decided to use PLX as a filler mostly because there was a debate between myself and a friend as to weather or
not PLX would form a decent jet. of course i knew it would from experience but had to prove my point.
https://vimeo.com/193344377
I just wish i had of used more steel plates since this jet was not stopped by 10 X 8mm plus a 20mm slab on top.
I remember starting shaped charges and looking at a couple of steel sheets and wondering if i could make a decent enough cone to pass through them,
Nowadays, it's Gee, i wonder how many plates could i get this cone through?
Nice cones there! are they cast.
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I think the etn/ petn was a good ratio and mixed ok i just put about 10 grams of petn plastique on top.
Nice result in the video neon pulse PLX works well any video of synthesizing
ethylenediamine comeing up , you tube can get fxxked for deleting your videos, there is that much shite on there thats should be flagged but it
appeals to the punters that you tube advertiseing aim at.
Yes i cast them then machine them up to size i think 50mm would be the biggest i could cast with the crucible ive got.
[Edited on 7-12-2016 by nux vomica]
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Tsjerk
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Possibly the petn detonated faster than the petn/etn resulting in a double shockwave?
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nux vomica
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Funny how certain movies become classics around the world ,did they get the lips sync ok when they dubed it to your language or was it ilke when we
watch a kung foo movies and the persons talking when the lips aren't moveing .
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nux vomica
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I was thinking along those lines myself Tsjerk , i will use straight petn plastique from now on so that fail cant factor in next time.
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greenlight
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Did a quick test with an older batch of PE and thought this might be the right place to post the pictures as the test demonstrates the Munroe effect.
I just took a 25 gram block and embossed SM (for sciencemadness) in it in
mirrored letters before placing it down on a 1.5 inch thick steel plate.
[Edited on 18-2-2017 by greenlight]
[Edited on 18-2-2017 by greenlight]
[Edited on 18-2-2017 by greenlight]
[Edited on 18-2-2017 by greenlight]
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
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