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Author: Subject: Unconventional Shaped Charges
Rain
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I am no expert in these matters and I have a quick question about these shaped charges.

Wouldn't it be better to use a 50 gram shaped charge facing an insensitive explosive like AN, than using the 50 gram booster in a cylindrical shape?

I mean, the penetrating "slug" of the SC travels at say 7 Km/s , essentially shocking the main charge as it penetrates it.
Whereas a cylindrical booster forms a 360 degree dispersing shock wave.

Just a thought.

"One day we will all turn into energetics, as by the laws of the universe."

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hissingnoise
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Detonators usually have concave ends and act as mini SCs. . .

Rain
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 Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise Detonators usually have concave ends and act as mini SCs. . .

Yes......, but thats insignificant compared to a 50g booster.
An detonator is only 1 g of initiation energy.

A booster would have a much more significant effect when in the form of a shaped charge, especially when it comes to initiating large amounts of insensitive secondaries.

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mfilip62
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ALWAYS mould my booster into shape charge with light bulb,and it always does the job,
yes,this is a great idea and even some conventional boosters have "hole" in the bottom.
Great for ANFO!
grndpndr
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FWIW very early attempts to weaponize CSC's utilized a minature CSC as a nose fuse the jet obviously penetrating and initaiting the main CSC HE.
Quickly abandoned with the advent of piezoelectric initiators.

More in line with the OP, 7kps for a csc would be a very low jet velocity exceeded by many modern HEs.Seems to be alot of idiosyncracys with jet formation.Itc seems at detonation the jet tip @apex doesnt have the time to reach full velocity while a booster at say close to or exceedinjg 8000 mps is near instantaneous affecting a very large portion of the main charge
versus a limited area for the SC.
On the other hand purpose built SC are used to det enemy IEDs
particyularly those made with old artiller projectiles/bombs with sometimes quite thick steel casings.I do believe the anti IED CSC devices often contain an unusual amount of a pyrophoric material in hopes of the IED explosive takes to fire rather than exploding. Hoissingnoise is absolutely correct in that commercial caps have a small hemispherical SC,at least the ones I was familiar with back in the stone age

[Edited on 23-6-2010 by grndpndr]
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Hi

Can anybody say me, which explosive might be strogner

ANNMSA (by axt)
NM 70%, HNO3 (65%) 30%

-does 65% work, or is it wasteing of HNO3 and could "replaced" with ANNM-AL (30% NM)

-=HeX=-
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I would go for the liquid mix...

If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
grndpndr
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Seems the ANNMSA would certainly be safer and judgujng by axts results seems to posess adequate brisance thw liquid likely give better performance/brisance /VOD, more intimate contact with the cone/ rest of the device.In interests of safety though Id use solid ANNMSA.

Anyone hear of HESH AT warhead circa ww2?Used/developed by the brits mainly for the new low velocity recoiless rifle by a man named Mr Burney.Intended for use against concrete bunkers it was equally successul against armored vehicles.Acronym for High Explosive Squash Head Shells the explosive in early warheads was contained in ss mesh bags.On Impact the thin shell would peel away
leaving the explosive pancake pressed tightly against the target.Highly tamped if you will,combined with the large are of contact on detonation the material to be defeated would build up a
shockwave that overstressed the material steel, or concrete causing the interior of the material to scab/spall away @ HV causing severe damage within a tank or bunker, steel or fist size chunks of material tossed about the interior at hundreds of MPH causing secondary explosions in tanks and bunkers as well as severe injurys from the spalled steel and concrete.Obsolete as an antitank warhead its still used by the brits in thier engineer vehicles in large demolition guns 165mm against fortifications.That should be included as an odd shaped charge!?

[Edited on 8-8-2010 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 8-8-2010 by grndpndr]
NUKE
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Well sorry guys for not managing to get 2nd opinion on target material... I've been pretty busy lately.

 Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr By the way an earlier comment regarding the size of the test plate we so recently debated got me thinking.At the advertised dimensions and my limited math skills the wieght of the target "steel" is something like 240Lbs!? How is it Nuke you managed to wrestle that through what appears an overgrown dense forest or does the name really fit?.Being something Im familiar with 12 in of steel rail wieghs 80lbs how is it the entire target wieghs approx 40kilos?And has the shape(irregular form) and color of a white softwood tree branch.Very similar cracks with same white softwood interior.Are we in fact looking at a northeastern softwood my gullible friends insist is a metal or is the accent not as put on as it sounds and its a eurasians species. Also as no one has the time to view the previous genuine amazing SC results made of a sadly done piece of fiberglass no one seems to dare view.This is now a good haven for members from totse etc. as compared to the first pages of a decent Original posts stickie by very professwional folks now gone bad.To call anything but the premade cone a well made fabrication is an insult to reality. Carefully done epoxy securing the CSC? nicely banded standoff leggs LOL. Ther isnt enough standoff in the steel tubing to accomodate the charge and standoff? Piss poor planning is no substitute for careful assembly.Looks like shit frankly and I suspect the performance matched otherwise we would see a carefully laid out sequence of the events and a schematic of construction as are in the beginning of this at one time excellent resource. Finally for the moment Wizard take a look @ AXT's home improvised linear charges and the commercial ones your touting are far from impressive.And yes I am out to insult most of you who have posted recently, what little verifiable work thats being done is less than substandard compared to just a few yrs previously.I dont see anyone trying to turn thir own CSC's,Fabricate single efps let alone multiple efps.Proundly dissapointing for the experts you all are! [Edited on 10-6-2010 by grndpndr] [Edited on 10-6-2010 by grndpndr] [Edited on 10-6-2010 by grndpndr] [Edited on 10-6-2010 by grndpndr]

I have managed to move it with help of my loyal spectators It's not very hard to do it if there's a path nearby... And also ~40kg doesn't present huge logistical challanges (like hiring a crane to lift it for you etc.) so it's perfectly managable...

I see you are still insisting on your amusing claims... I have to say I'm feeling flattered by your continuous disbelief. Well I guess you guys will never know what really happened since you weren't there so I suppose it's perfectly valid to leave it to grndpndr and people alike to speculate until a time machine (or something) is invented.

Don't forget EVERYTHING is a conspiracy THEY exist...
grndpndr
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I must have really hurt your feelings to dredge up such an old post.
All due respect but Im afraid it really does appear to ME as suspect, if others feel its genuine thats fine ive no beef with them or even you for
that matter.
Even though I feel the posting is fraudulent It wouldnt be the first time ive been wrong. So My advice is get over it, I have my opinion and unless there are photos that dont appear doctored to me my opinion stands.Why that should even phase you is beyond me unless thers truth in what I say.If Im wrong,have misinterpreted the pictures which i really dont believe. my most hunble apologys are owed to you.And would be forthcoming with proof.Speaking of proof ther are metal supply shops that sell 1to 4in diameter solid round stock up to 24 to 48in long and they will cut the stock into 1
in long pieces for a few dollar an inch,Buy a dozen 1in round slabs place your device with the correct standoff before after pics.seperate the 1in slabs and pictures of them would be undeniable proof.If shipping wasnt so high Id send you 6 to 12 3x3 squares of 7/8 mild steel to prove your device.I live next to a RR yard with plenty of mild steel for the taking both short pieces of track to demostrate the effects of line charges capability of splitting the track and sections iof steel plte for penetration test as us done professionally.If the pics are genuine why worrie about what i thinkanyway
The WiZard is In
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Miszany-Shardin

I am not 'bout to read 30-pages of posts, I will note
I did not find this searching soooo I will note in passing
the Misznay-Shardin Effect albeit it is not all that
unconventional.

http://www.experiencefestival.com/misznay-schardin_effect

being a good place to start.
grndpndr
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Theres nothing unconventional about 99% of any of the sc effects in any of the 30 plus pages I can see Wizard!

Miznay Chardin is also an accepted spelling,maybe that makes it unconventional.
hissingnoise
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The correct spelling, of course, is Misznay-Schardin effect. . .

grndpndr
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Maybe an 'adult' pissing contest where instead of lenghth we compare how many pages spell it one way how many another.LOL
Im sure your correct in the spelling however and Im sure youve seen it spelled both ways w/o comment by people who know better but have better things to occupy themselves with.

A winner for the Mizsnay Schardin effect 10 to 1 I for one am certainly glad thats cleared up!

[Edited on 31-8-2010 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 31-8-2010 by grndpndr]
hissingnoise
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You're a gas, grndpndr. . .

grndpndr
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 Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise You're a gas, grndpndr. . .

Literally i must assume as this is the internet!?
grndpndr
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Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr
 Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise You're a gas, grndpndr. . .

Literally i must assume as this is the internet!?

And why not Hissingnoise? Lifes so short take no shit enjoy every minute.If people get pissed along the way they will either get over it or not.Either way Im not in the least concerned.All i worry about especially at this time of nite is living life as best I could hurting no one if I can help it and helping everyone I can.Cheers everyone ive pissed off now, in the past ,and in the future,may you get over it.
grndpndr
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NUKE
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 Quote: Originally posted by NUKE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku4uUP_z-Gw .....

Video was down I can't guarantee this one will stay forever either...

grndpndr
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Late date apology/retraction;NUKE.

Id like to offer my apologys to Nuke for over the top nitpicking of your posts.Particularly the effort hes said to have invested in the 90mm CSC.I wont try to justify my criticisms but in my defence the pics seemd w/o order.The effects somewhat suspect at least to 60s/70s RHA armor steel.
Recent reading as regards target effects other than armor steel have clarified how kinetic and chemical weapons react on mild steel and worse brittle cast iron.
The only questions I have are noncritical/non accusatory, just curious as to the sources of the 84/90mm Conical copper SC that appeared so perfect it appeared to be made by a nation state contractor.Failing that a very costly$250 US piece of 4inx4in solid cylindrical copper chucked in a lathe and machined out by a tool and die maker.Unliikely so either it was a very well turned piece of which Im envious.Or It may have been liberated from a demonstration set of how the Carl Gustav recoiless rifle warhead worked,or even the 90mm us RR demo set.Byda the spec ops still use the carl gustav with modernized warhead extended range rocket propelled 84 mm swede RR. Ive had some success with EFPs but nothing to = what you did with the SC.I love the simplicity of the efps and off route damage that can be inflicted using proper platters.Next one I*m hoping to buy 33$ worth of 4inx1in thick OD copper round
so I can have a local machinist make 1maybe 2 120degree angle copper platters with mild 4in steel confinement and end cap/plate welded to concentrate every bit of energy into forming and propelling the efp at close to 2kps using a 7500mps + HE.Using a kinepack type HE 75/25 and a salvage steel concave platter 4 ozz penetrated 1in of hot rolled steel plate.Nothing compared to your accomplishment but I was pleased as the imp platter performed from 3in dia reformed ityself to less than 1in penetrating with a 1in1/4 hole looking more like a HV cannon strike than Imp device.
As I said IM WORKING ON SOME COPPER,as well as trying to fab a imp woodworking type lathe in order to attempt copper cone forming,and I wopuld like to buy a 1in piece of 4in solid cylidrical co0pper stock and have it machined wuith a 120degree angle on each side,modernized platter charge .Steel is the last thing to worry about here its a waystation crew relief rrtrack repair depot with mounds of 1-2in cold rolled steel and pieces of worn out RR track, the mil claims 1 lb of TNT will split80lb yd rr track w/o tamping! I will find out with a 3ft piece of worn track that walked into my yard witha TNT equiv, as this is 80lb/3ft RRtrack, very thick.
I have lost count of the 1in rolled steel by8x6/12x14!HEAVY steel tough to cvarry for a witness plate,my cars to small!Fr4iends PU truck w/tommy lift. In any event I hope my apologys accepted.If not I cannot blame you or worry over it. Humbly yours, PNDR

Lastly I have a qu3stion regardoing if anyone has a clue as to proper alloys of copper to use in a SC?Online metyal suppliers have quite a few copper alloys to choose from.Some with higher tensile strenghth particularly after work hardened and of course it can also be annealed to be as soft as possible.IIRC I ran into a chromium alloyed copper,obviously a high tensile strenghth copper alloy.
Tellurium copper alloy? the purpose??Some meant for electrical use another a general purpose copper alloy and Im sure there are dozens more and we havent even discussed
what types of mild steel or mallebale Iron are or can be used used in modern EFPs in material shortage emergencys.
I had read a malleable but very hard heat treated Iron was used with good effect in EFP's. The exotic materials/designs havent even been discussed where\$isnt an issue;nation states,or backers.
nitro-genes
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Just one question, not accusing you of anything....

Based on what facts exactly do you not only seem to know it is RHA, but from the 60's/70's as well?

grndpndr
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Havent the slightests what your talking about.I never implied it was in any way RHA from yesteryear.Only that i wouldnt expect it to behave as such and obviously it didnt.

Reread the posts and youll discover the "target plate" was discussed as a mystery metal my reference to RHA was as a baseline not claiming the material was RHA AS ITS BEHAVIOR AMPLY DEMONSTRATED.THAT my friend you dont find lying about for the taking.So If you have suspicions take them elsewhere AS I COULD GIVE A SHIT.

In any event modern steel armor is no longer called RHA,it was back in my day ergo my reference to armor plate as RHA
which this material was quite obviously not if youd ever had any experience with armor

[Edited on 15-10-2010 by grndpndr]
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Hi guys

does anybody got some detailed infos about the L/D-ratio to the Linerthickness at a normal EFP ?

example:

EFP-Charge, Steelpipe with 70mm D, Head Height 1.2 CD or 1.0, Explosives will be manitolehexanitrate, picrid acid, and only a few percents PETN...

Thickness of Liner if steel: ?
Thickness of Liner if copper: ?
grndpndr
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I was fortunate to finally see Nukes video under different name.Intentional or no it was his vid.What was lacking in the posted SM video was 2 shots of the target material a light tan straight stump with the bark removed.The second shot showed the top of the cylindrical 'metallic" target with a light outer core of newer growth and inner core of heartwood.Yall been had. 'You tube' under "Explosivly formed penetrators",it was mislabeled but identical OT the shots of the wooden target.Vindication.
He goes un der the Nombre incognitus 001 the expanded video is mistitled 'Explosive compilation 2'.I was simply browsing and came upon (nukes or) this video. Theres your reference and proof HS.[Edited on 10-12-2010 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 11-12-2010 by grndpndr]
hissingnoise
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Right, you saw a video confirming your suspicions . .