Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Non-nitrate explosives
Zelot
Harmless
*




Posts: 44
Registered: 27-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: hopeful

[*] posted on 10-6-2008 at 22:16
Non-nitrate explosives


I've used up all of my sulfuric/nitric acids at the moment, so I was wondering about non-nitrate explosives. Has anyone heard of chlorine-based high-explosives? They sound like the easiest to produce in a pinch (minus the chlorates) from pool supplies. Any suggestions?



So... what did you do over the weekend?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-6-2008 at 01:12


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2945



View user's profile View All Posts By User
AngelEyes
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 171
Registered: 24-1-2003
Location: South of England
Member Is Offline

Mood: Skint

[*] posted on 11-6-2008 at 04:24


Azides (-N<sub>3</sub>;) and Acetylides (-C<sub>2</sub>;) also spring to mind.

Plus perchlorates, permanganates...etc.

[Edited on 11-6-2008 by AngelEyes]




\'Silk and satin, leather and lace...black panties with an Angel\'s face\'
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ScienceGeek
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 149
Registered: 22-1-2008
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-6-2008 at 09:54


AngelEyes:
Could one say that perchlorates and permanganates are true explosives? I.e., they're not just powerful oxidising agents, but explosives just by themselves...+




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Microtek
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 530
Registered: 23-9-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-6-2008 at 13:53


Organic perchlorates such as ethylperchlorate are certainly very powerful (and very sensitive) explosives, when the organic radical is suitably small.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-6-2008 at 15:19


Are there any organic permanganates?



View user's profile View All Posts By User
bereal511
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 162
Registered: 9-8-2005
Location: Madison, WI
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-6-2008 at 16:04


I believe tetrabuytlammonium permanganate is a relatively common one. I doubt it's explosive to any extent though.



I stand corrected.

http://orgprepdaily.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/tetrabutylammon...

[Edited on 11-6-2008 by bereal511]




As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life -- so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls.
-- Matt Cartmill
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 11-6-2008 at 17:27


Benzyltriethylammonium permanganate (C6H5CH2(C2H5)3MnNO4) explodes around 80 to 90 deg.C.or from heavy blows, and can ignite spontaneously. The trimethyl compound also explodes around the same temperature. There are a few others like these. Organic permanganates are even less stable than the perchlorates, if the lower alkyl permanganates even exist then they are extremely unstable.

[Edited on 11-6-2008 by Schockwave]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zelot
Harmless
*




Posts: 44
Registered: 27-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: hopeful

[*] posted on 9-7-2008 at 18:33


In the thread zinc directed me to, I found a theoretical explosive that would be fun to try-out: chlorinated isopropylamine. Sounds easy to make, with OTC precursors. You first make isopropylamine by bubbling ammonia gas through rubbing alcohol in a copper pipe. Then you chlorinate it as with the other amines and you're done. Any thoughts? Anyone willing to try this?



So... what did you do over the weekend?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
JohnWW
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 9-7-2008 at 21:07


Others I can think of, not listed above (i.e. excluding nitrates, nitro-compounds, chlorates, perchlorates, permanganates): bromates, perbromates, tetrazolates, fulminates (isocyanates) of heavy metals, organic peroxides, nitrogen trichloride/tribromide/triiodide.

[Edited on 11-7-08 by JohnWW]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 9-7-2008 at 22:09


Fulminates are different from isocyanates:

Fulminic acid is formonitrile oxide, hydrocyanic oxide:



Fulminic acid and soluble fulminates have similar toxicity to cyanides.

Isocyanic acid is:



this stuff is also not very stable. In the gaseous state it smells pungent and causes lacrimation, when condensed it irritates the skin and gives a large amount of pain under blister formation.


Nitrides (of some non-metals and heavy metals), organic ozonides, and polyacetylides would be some others. Not to mention the large amount of oxidizer and fuel mixtures.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zelot
Harmless
*




Posts: 44
Registered: 27-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: hopeful

[*] posted on 9-7-2008 at 22:14


Speaking of oxidizer/fuel mixes, is chlorate/sugar able to detonate?



So... what did you do over the weekend?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 9-7-2008 at 22:30


I'm not sure if it's possible, it could be that the mixture only has deflagrating properties or it might be that there is a critical mass for a mixture of KClO3 and sugar needed for them to detonate if they do. Mixtures with petroleum compounds like Explosif P, S and Minélites are known detonable where KClO3 was even used in WWI in mixtures as an explosive filler.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 10-7-2008 at 22:57


Has anyone tried dissolving N2O in a fuel? It's said to be "very soluble" in ethanol and ether, though I have no figures. That should be like a detonable fuel-oxygen mixture. Methanol might also work and could be more powerful. N2O is not too reactive, or toxic but a strong oxidizer, the same wooden splint test for pure oxygen is said also to work with N2O.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
pdb
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 54
Registered: 8-4-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-7-2008 at 01:15


You could add to your list the cheddites, based on mixtures of chlorates with diverse stuff, and so named after Chedde, which is a small city in France were chlorates were industrially prepared by electrolysis (located in the Alps, electricity would come from hydraulic sources).

The name became a trademark of an explosives company which doesn't exist anymore. However, the trademark has been retained by another company, specialized in percussion caps for rifles cartridges. I like their logo, kept from the former company:
(center)(img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/pdb/cheddite.jpg")(/center)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Leander
Harmless
*




Posts: 28
Registered: 23-2-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-7-2008 at 05:43


Cheddites are cheap, simple and sensitive, but not really powerfull. KClO3 with a plain fuel has a VoD of 3000- 3500 m/s. KClO3 might be a a strong oxidiser but there are much more factors necessary to make a good explosive. The reaction surface between the fuel and its oxidiser is really small just like ANFO, and the mixture contains over 60% inerts, because of the potassium ion. KClO3/sucrose can be detonated, but with a pretty large critical diameter, and it will probably suffice a large booster.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 12-7-2008 at 17:33


Peroxochromates are another.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Picric-A
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 796
Registered: 1-5-2008
Location: England
Member Is Offline

Mood: Fuming

[*] posted on 20-7-2008 at 13:57


nitrogen halides, NI3 NCl3. very easy to make but sensitive as hell :P oh and nitrogen trichloride is light sensitive! just to add to the fun :)
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Blasty
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 108
Registered: 25-7-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-7-2008 at 22:11


Quote:
Originally posted by Leander
Cheddites are cheap, simple and sensitive, but not really powerfull. KClO3 with a plain fuel has a VoD of 3000- 3500 m/s. KClO3 might be a a strong oxidiser but there are much more factors necessary to make a good explosive. The reaction surface between the fuel and its oxidiser is really small just like ANFO, and the mixture contains over 60% inerts, because of the potassium ion. KClO3/sucrose can be detonated, but with a pretty large critical diameter, and it will probably suffice a large booster.


By adding certain chemicals to the chlorate/sugar mixtures you can make them detonate even by using a comparatively small flash powder charge. Berge's blasting powder, for example:

(scanned original, page 330)

http://books.google.com/books?id=8BdDAAAAIAAJ&printsec=f...

(transcribed version)

http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Henley-s-20th-Century-Form...


The smaller amount of potassium chromate speeds up the reaction. The wax is apparently added in order to make the mixture less sensitive to shock and friction.

I have experimented a bit with Berge's blasting powder without the wax (I will do some experiments with the wax one later on.) The mixture burns very fast, in a flash. If you confine it in a tube and set it off with a fuse it explodes in a black powder-like manner (but with more force, of course.) But if you put a blasting cap (no "booster", just a plain fulminate or HMTD cap) or even a confined flash powder charge inside it, the shock will make it detonate (I have detonated samples in Tylenol plastic bottles even by using flash powder firecrackers. You must be careful that the fuse of the firecracker does not come in contact with the charge of Berge's blasting powder and ignite it prematurely. You want the flash powder explosion itself to set off the charge, not the sparks or flame from the fuse.)

[Edited on 26-7-2008 by Blasty]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 11-9-2008 at 00:29


Quote:
Originally posted by Schockwave
Has anyone tried dissolving N2O in a fuel? It's said to be "very soluble" in ethanol and ether, though I have no figures. That should be like a detonable fuel-oxygen mixture. Methanol might also work and could be more powerful. N2O is not too reactive, or toxic but a strong oxidizer, the same wooden splint test for pure oxygen is said also to work with N2O.


Nevermind this. The MSDS says supercritical N2O in mixture with ethanol or methanol can be detonable. N2O isn't readily soluble in methanol, and ethanol most likely also not.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
sakshaug007
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 94
Registered: 11-3-2009
Location: USA-Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-3-2009 at 22:15


There's always the copper acetylide and silver acetylide compounds that are extremely explosive and easy to synthesize. Just bubble acetylene gas through a solution of silver chloride and the product precipitates out.

AgCl + C2H2 = Ag2C2 + HCl

Ag2C2 = Ag(s) + C(s) + BOOM!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
a_bab
National Hazard
****




Posts: 454
Registered: 15-9-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!

[*] posted on 16-3-2009 at 00:19


Silver chloride doesn't form solutions, as it's notoriously insoluble (just like BaSO4).

And even if it were soluble, acetylene alone wouldn't be able to take the Cl ion out of the chloride salt. An ammoniacal complex is needed for this (in order to render the salt soluble - works for copper). In practice, silver nitrate is used.

This has been discussed to death here, though. And reviving dead threads is not advisable.

Other than that, welcome :)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
sakshaug007
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 94
Registered: 11-3-2009
Location: USA-Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-3-2009 at 08:20


Quote:
Originally posted by a_bab
Silver chloride doesn't form solutions, as it's notoriously insoluble (just like BaSO4).

And even if it were soluble, acetylene alone wouldn't be able to take the Cl ion out of the chloride salt. An ammoniacal complex is needed for this (in order to render the salt soluble - works for copper). In practice, silver nitrate is used.

This has been discussed to death here, though. And reviving dead threads is not advisable.

Other than that, welcome :)



My bad, I mixed up the analogous copper chloride synthesis of copper acetylide with this silver acetylide synthesis. Thanks for the correction, and uhh... I'll put the thread to rest, sorry.
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top