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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 27-6-2008 at 20:16


I think the old rule of the right of the accused to "confront/see" the accuser would take care of a lot of those "I'm calling in just because I don't like him because he has a bigger boat/hotter wife than me" calls.

I completely agree with you though, len1. It's as if people have forgotten history and wish or don't care if they go through the same crap over and over again.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 27-6-2008 at 20:31


Len, I find what you said extremely disturbing. Thankfully, I have seen nothing like that in the US.
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len1
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[*] posted on 27-6-2008 at 21:19


Magpie, from what you said - that these ads are not screening in the US - I was reminded of an old adage here - when the US sneezes, Australia catches a cold. Normally its meant to apply economically, that is, if the US has a mild economic downturn, we have a recession. But it seems to apply in the political sense as well.

MagicJigPipe, I absolutely agree. You have a right to see who is accusing you - its essential in establishing if theres an ulterior motive. I thought its a pillar of our democracy. Its astounding at how easily people can be pursuaded to trample on those pillars.


Heres a link to the ad on youtube. Its been on about 3 years now. (It seems there are slightly different versions of this ad, Im sure the one screening here has the word CAN at the end emphasized (in this clip it isnt), plus slightly different mixtures of the hotch-potch you hear).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x9vXEaGsL8

[Edited on 28-6-2008 by len1]
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 08:21


Downloading documents from suspicious websites? Think about it. They're telling your ignorant neighbors to make a judgment on what is a suspicious. How would they know that anyway? Are they encouraging people to look through other's computers? Or telling people to turn in members of their family or household? This is pathetic.

This reminds me of the book 1984 where the people were encouraged and brainwashed into ratting out their friends and family when they did something suspicious or "unpatriotic" or said something bad about the government. Because, after all, that is "suspicious" nowadays, right?

[Edited on 6-28-2008 by MagicJigPipe]




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 08:40


Apparently governments in Great Britain have a similar mindset as that of Australia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LomNIyf1oA&NR=1

I have seen nothing like this in the US - not that our government wouldn't like to do same, I imagine. I'm just hoping that anticipation of public outrage is preventing it.
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 08:48


I saw that one, too.

Anticipation of public outrage? Do you really think the average American would understand the implications and if they did would they care as long as they still have their yachts and SUVs? I don't think, so. I'm pretty sure that's not one of the reasons they haven't done it.

There is the meth hotline and nobody said anything about that. And please don't try to say it's different because "drugs are bad". It's the same thing with the same implications and same consequences.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 08:59


Quote:

Do you really think the average American would understand the implications and if they did would they care as long as they still have their yachts and SUVs?


No, unfortunately. But there is a significant protest about eroding freedoms going on in the editorial pages of newspapers. At least in the two that I read.
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 09:22


Yes, I know what you're talking about. Unfortunately, that seems to be the 1% of Americans that care enough and are intelligent enough to notice and write about it. Remember, this forum and newspapers is not a broad cross-section of the population. I think the people who write on a daily basis are in the more intelligent percentile. Also, unfortunately I think that percentage is quite low.



"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 09:53


Editorial comments or actually political action?

I have seen in Canada:
report suspicious behavior on busses, trains, etc
an editorial in the newspaper stating "people should be unable to fight trafic tickets, their bank info whould be directly tied to the gov and withdrawls made for infractions"
editorials on "why free speech should be limited"
editorial on "why the press acts as a tool of public opinion"- a defence of it, not a rejection
I could think of more examples, but Its sad, and I am on vacation.
IMO the state of freedoms is going to get alot worse before it gets better.




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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 10:11


It seems as if history really does repeat itself. Remember, Rome was a republic before it was an empire. I'm pretty sure in 200BC very few average Romans would think their descendents would be living in a virtual dictatorship.

I know it's cliche to compare the US to Rome, but you can't ignore the similarities. I mean our system of government is based almost entirely on Greco-Roman law.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 10:22


Quote:

Editorial comments or actually political action?


Just comments, no action. The comments come both from local "letters to the editor" and the more thorough complaints from editors of national newspapers.

Davster I would have to also place Canada in the ranks of those governments/people more openly Draconian than what I have seen in the US.

As poor as many of our high school students do in their government and history classes, there is, I believe, still a strong residual respect for individual rights, the Bill of Rights, etc, in the US. Library censorship and keeping track of what books people check out are highly frowned upon here. That Australian TV pitch concerning people downloading suspicious information from the internet I found particularly repulsive.
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len1
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[*] posted on 28-6-2008 at 17:21


Quote:
Downloading documents from suspicious websites? Think about it. They're telling your ignorant neighbors to make a judgment on what is a suspicious. How would they know that anyway? Are they encouraging people to look through other's computers? Or telling people to turn in members of their family or household? This is pathetic.


Yes I stopped to think about that one myself. Maybe they mean spy on what sites your mates have on their screens at work. What is a suspicious web site? Does one with instructions on how to make bombs, drugs, violent poisons, expressing non-main-stream opinion qualify? What about the very name 'sciencemadness' that in itself is suspicious. So accessing this site from work in Aus is a ligit reason to be reported according to our ad.

The british ad does not contain so many nasty phrases to my taste - the one exception is the bit where she lifts the venitian blind, thats a clear signal - spy on your neighbours. Why not check out and see what they have in their garages - after all they are unlikely to be making bombs right outside you window? Plus they cant expect the general public to know the difference between a bomb-making terrorist setup, and just a home chemistry lab. So the take home message is home chemistry must be reported.

Get better? Human history has shown that only happens after a major calamity - so I wont expect it anytime soon.

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by len1]
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[*] posted on 1-7-2008 at 11:55


Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
The US is much worse in some ways. I get the feeling that neighbors/other people seem to think they know what's best for everyone else here (more so than in other societies).

This doesn't really count as a "neighbor incident", but one time my landlord "came a'knockin'" so I invited him in (big mistake). I had a distillation setup stored in the second bedroom which served as a huge storage closet. I made the stupid mistake of showing it to him and explaining what I do...

About a week later my girlfriend called me while I was at work to tell me that someone had broken into the house and all of my glassware had been smashed. There was an eviction notice on the door and a text message on my phone calling me a "meth cook". I also discovered a bag full of empty iodine tincture bottles hidden in a dresser drawer in that same room (it wasn't mine). The cops never busted down my door but I know they were watching me as I packed. I even reported the break-in to the cops and showed them the baggy of tinctures... nothing came of it.

So, because of someone elses ignorance and hysteria and the indifference of the police I lost my apartment.

I can't believe I haven't told this story on this forum yet... Wait, I think I told half of it...

I'm telling you guys, we must rise up and put down this bullshit (this does not necessarily mean violence). If we (the non-ignorant American people) don't we will find ourselves living in a full-fledged police state.

[Edited on 6-26-2008 by MagicJigPipe]




I agree completely, the U.S. is much worse about it than other countries. As much as i love my native country, it often frustrates me with the ignorance of it's inhabitants. Also, I'm not unusually violent but I would try to find a way to take revenge on whoever smashed your lab if you know for sure who it is. Perhaps some good old fashioned non-chemical tire iron therapy?

[Edited on 1-7-2008 by Skrinkle]

[Edited on 1-7-2008 by Skrinkle]
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 1-7-2008 at 15:02


Haha! Yeah, I seriously thought about it for a while afterwards. I knew where he lived. In fact, we were on pretty good terms until that day.

I ultimately decided against it.

It was very tempting though.

IMO, the guy getting his ass kicked would be more humane and better justice than him going to jail or getting fines. IMO, there is nothing wrong with vigilante justice ONLY when the legal system fails.

However, it's over with now. And I no longer get enraged when I think about it.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 12-7-2008 at 16:42


JigPipe has a legit paranoia, having bullshit happened to him.

I'm just about at the same point now after reading this forum and many other subjects of this website.
Some guy name Soxlet sworn that a person just requesting merchandise from Spectrum that didn't have the qualifications to procure chemicals from them would be hunted down like a dog.

Well, after I placed my order, I decided to cancel, I cleaned my computers, checked my inventory for "bad" chems, and cancelled a few procedures. Wasn't making anything bad, and I hate explosives after a bad event 20 years ago.

Damn it!!! I still have some HCl and H2SO4, some fuse, maybe a little ether, a drop or two.

If they come to my house, they'll more that likely take the computers, and see the link to this website in my favorites, which automatically signs me in.

They'll be able to search for any posts. Damn it!!! I couldn't erase that compromising reply on evil lurkers post when I erased all the others. Effin' software.

I can't even talk to my wife about this. I told her I'm making fuel additives for my truck. At least that's where all the leftovers go.

She thinks I'm a teetotaler. Since I refined that vodka and sampled it, I guess that's all over.

Damn hobby!!!

If I get a little more worried, I'm going to delete this post, IF I CAN!!!
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 15-7-2008 at 19:08


I did the same thing except it was over at WetDreams. I had about 50 or so posts over there. I went through and deleted them all and had my account deleted. I will certainly never go back. Not only is it not a good forum, IMO but it's just too risky to post over there.

I just recently sorted through my thousands of pages of chemistry related printouts. I took out anything that referenced any kind of explosive/drug related chemistry and burned it. I also regularly delete my history and various things like that from my HD. It doesn't take much effort and it could save your life in the future.

Considering the times we live in I don't think this is paranoia. This is just being cautious.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 15-7-2008 at 20:31


Quote:

I also regularly delete my history and various things like that from my HD. It doesn't take much effort and it could save your life in the future.



what you dont have the mission impossible melting hard drive yet!!!!

the anonymous tip will bring down many
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 18:42


I actually thought about doing that. It shouldn't be too difficult. Just surround the HD with thermite and some kind of ignition powder/system that can be initiated with a switch. I'm seriously contemplating doing something like that with all of my chemistry files just for the fun of it. Projects like that are very interesting.

I wonder if some sort of electromagnetic device would be more efficient? Probably not...

What was that movie that I saw something similar to that in? Was it the X-Files?




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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thumbup.gif posted on 19-7-2008 at 19:51


the EM pulse is slick and more elusive then slag making

but the thermite makes a better statement of freedom....:D

[Edited on 20-7-2008 by roamingnome]
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