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joeflsts
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 03:24


Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
The nanny states never sleep, and what vulture calls the sheeple obviously (to the minds of the nannycrats) need protecting from themselves.

Someone upthread is correct, after they take the chemicals away and block all private purchase, the apparatus will be next. Glassware is already tightly controlled in some US states such as California and Texas (in varying degrees). In Texas possession of unregistered glassware and its transfer without approval from the state are serious crimes. Owners of glassware must register with the state and all purchases reported in advance and approval requested. In California as I recall, glassware purchases are restricted to $100 a day. Most of the hobbyist-friendly glassware sellers in California have gone out of business.

So it is not at all unreasonable to extrapolate such stupidity spreading, at least to the EU and sadly to Oceanina as well.

In Texas if I understand correctly even blowing your own glass is subject to same regime.

It is a well known tactic of the drug enforcement cops when looking at a suspected clandestine lab site, to monitor electrical and water use via the public utilities. If this is deemed inordinately high it's a bit in favor of the place being a lab. So my remark about generating your own electricity was not out of bounds at all.

When the government is afraid of its people it is high time for the people to be afraid of that government.

Those who are willing to trade a little liberty for some security will soon have neither.


The Texas laws are really quite stupid and unenforcable. In fact you can walk into any Fry's in the Dallas area and buy the banned glassware off the self.

The EU stance is more frightening than the laws in Texas. If this is a signal of what is to come then I see the final death blow to home chemistry in western nations.

The Americans seem to be shifting to a more "progressive" model of government which is very, very pro EU.

The new "progressive" form of government will delight in your freedoms as they slowly, and systematically take them away - all in the name of better government sponsored care.

Joe
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 05:33


Quote:
Originally posted by len1
I didnt know chems were 'not watched' in Russia. Maybe thats because all effort was spent on people watching :). Actually many things were better in the former Soviet Union. For instance that very same work ethic. Plus people would do things essentially for free - like the work Im sharing here. People in the west are brought up to think that everything has a price. Im not suggesting it was better there - life there was freightening, it was a real police state - maybe thats what we're heading to


There was a lot of chemicals available in household or DIY type shops and there was no consumer friendly products. Everything was as basic as it can be - usually without colorants, flavors and the like. Same products were sold for years without changes in contents. It was impossible to buy industrial quantites mostly because trying to run any kind of private enterpraise was a crime (more than 10 years in prison was common for that). Goods in shops were not always available because there was usually only on or two factory which made particular goods. If there were repairing works or some problems with transportation or bureaucracy then particular goods could absent in shops for days or months.

Safety with chemicals was everybodys own concern as LE was perfectly indifferent in these matters. Medical treatment was completely free and medications were cheap. No brand names in pharmacyes, most medicines were known by their chemical names. Life was actually quite beautifull as long as you did not say anything "wrong" about soviet government, ideology or political sysytem. If someone happened to inform KGB about your nonloyality then things were very bad for you and you were lucky with only 10 years in Gulag.

Many (if not most) of officials were corrupted. Small pribes or help in aquiring western made goods was often enough to get things what were officially not available for you. About half of society was quite treatable by bribes or otherwise but another half belived sincerelly that they live in best possible country in the world and were able to report what they saw or heard. You never knew to whom you speak.

One did not need good education, job interviews or anything to get work which was enough to have house, car and children. No need to raise a loan, just some years of not very hard work - but owing more than one house (and iirc even more than one car) was crime and it was confiscated. Food, Education, science, medicine, literature, theatre etc were all well payd by state and there was no need to seek sponsors. If deciders from communist party found that your scientific or cultural work is ideologically acceptable then money was granted and also other privilegues. In every institution or enterpraise was much more workers than was actually needed. Wages were usually not main motivation for workers as these were granted anyway. Instead there were various campains by state and communist party like "Our homeland needs new books for educating future chemists" and at once best chemists of state started to write those books, got payd well and books were afterwards sold everywhere so cheaply that even some completely uneducated people might buy them just maybe once one will need it.




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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 06:55


Quote:
Originally posted by joeflstsThe Texas laws are really quite stupid and unenforcable. In fact you can walk into any Fry's in the Dallas area and buy the banned glassware off the self.
...


My understanding of the Texas law was that you are supposed to declare and register chemical glassware, not that it is out and out banned.

That's actually better from the LEO standpoint, in a way. Don't have to enforce an out and out prohibition, if you are law abiding then your name is on a list down at headquarters, and if not then you can be arrested for breaking the registration law even though you did not use the glassware for any otherwise illegal activities. Bad LEO loves having lots of intrusive little known laws, so many that just about everyone has broken at least one, so that anyone can be hauled in at any time if desired.
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 10:56


Quote:

The Americans seem to be shifting to a more "progressive" model of government which is very, very pro EU. The new "progressive" form of government will delight in your freedoms as they slowly, and systematically take them away - all in the name of better government sponsored care.


Either way you don't know shit about the EU, or you're kidding (which I hope). IIRC, your current conservative government installed the patriot act and your president vetoed a ban on torturing suspects. Yay to them for increasing your personal freedom. It's saddening to see how you fall for their propaganda that "them liberals" will take your freedoms away while they'll gladly lock you up without trial.

Most EU countries have elaborate systems of social and medical care, yes. It's already in place and won't benefit from taking away freedoms, so I don't see where your logic is going.
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 11:32


Quote:
Originally posted by not_important
My understanding of the Texas law was that you are supposed to declare and register chemical glassware, not that it is out and out banned.


That is basically right, I think. You are supposed to request the permit in advance, though, and it may be denied, I think that registering after the fact (purchase) is not good enough.

I am almost sure that Fry's is breaking the law with their Erlenmeyer flasks on the shelf. (However, that is the only restricted piece of equipment I have noticed there, with the exception of the bazillion 'transformers' which are also on the restricted list.)

Quote:
That's actually better from the LEO standpoint, in a way. Don't have to enforce an out and out prohibition, if you are law abiding then your name is on a list down at headquarters, and if not then you can be arrested for breaking the registration law even though you did not use the glassware for any otherwise illegal activities. Bad LEO loves having lots of intrusive little known laws, so many that just about everyone has broken at least one, so that anyone can be hauled in at any time if desired.


I think this is the real point of the law. The idea being, if they suspect somebody of being a meth cook or whatever, they don't have to prove that to be able to lock somebody up.

I am not aware of any cases of this law being abused by LE (meaning going after hobbyists etc.) but I wouldn't necessarily know about it, so that might not mean much.
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 14:55


Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Quote:
Originally posted by not_important
My understanding of the Texas law was that you are supposed to declare and register chemical glassware, not that it is out and out banned.


That is basically right, I think. You are supposed to request the permit in advance, though, and it may be denied, I think that registering after the fact (purchase) is not good enough.

I am almost sure that Fry's is breaking the law with their Erlenmeyer flasks on the shelf. (However, that is the only restricted piece of equipment I have noticed there, with the exception of the bazillion 'transformers' which are also on the restricted list.)

Quote:
That's actually better from the LEO standpoint, in a way. Don't have to enforce an out and out prohibition, if you are law abiding then your name is on a list down at headquarters, and if not then you can be arrested for breaking the registration law even though you did not use the glassware for any otherwise illegal activities. Bad LEO loves having lots of intrusive little known laws, so many that just about everyone has broken at least one, so that anyone can be hauled in at any time if desired.


I think this is the real point of the law. The idea being, if they suspect somebody of being a meth cook or whatever, they don't have to prove that to be able to lock somebody up.

I am not aware of any cases of this law being abused by LE (meaning going after hobbyists etc.) but I wouldn't necessarily know about it, so that might not mean much.


I think you may be right, but it isn't just Fry's. I have noticed that most Hobby Town's carry Erlenmeyer flasks as well.

Joe
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 14:58


Quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Quote:

The Americans seem to be shifting to a more "progressive" model of government which is very, very pro EU. The new "progressive" form of government will delight in your freedoms as they slowly, and systematically take them away - all in the name of better government sponsored care.


Either way you don't know shit about the EU, or you're kidding (which I hope). IIRC, your current conservative government installed the patriot act and your president vetoed a ban on torturing suspects. Yay to them for increasing your personal freedom. It's saddening to see how you fall for their propaganda that "them liberals" will take your freedoms away while they'll gladly lock you up without trial.

Most EU countries have elaborate systems of social and medical care, yes. It's already in place and won't benefit from taking away freedoms, so I don't see where your logic is going.


The point of my post is that the EU is proposing sweeping changes thru new laws that will make it basically impossible to practice home chemistry.

American's seemed to want to elect "progressive" leaders which admire the EU.

I could care less about what conservatives have done as it relates to what I originally posted - these new laws are being driven by the EU and I'm predicting the US will follow. In government there is hardly any difference between conservatives and liberals. Both will fuck you and tell you it is for your own good. Internment camps under a liberal, Gitmo under a conservative.... History is what it is...

Joe

[Edited on 18-7-2008 by joeflsts]
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 15:27


What this thread is all about is what the police of two major EU member nations plus a neighbor have recently done, which is apparently the confiscation of lawful property lawfully acquired and lawfully posessed without due process.

On a coordinated simultaneous multinational basis.

The German, Austrian and Swiss police apparently can just make things up as they go, to suit their mood. Hang the law.




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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 15:38


What makes this sad, is along with these extra measures to restrict reagents and apparatus, the hobby is under social presecution. That tells me that this has been deliberate and planned for a very long time. I, being born in the 1970's, am astonished when I read older chemstry texts and they imply a chemical experiement is not only acceptabe behaviour but ENCOURAGED. Since the 1970's scientists and tinkerers have been labled as geeks, nerds, dorks all derogatory monikers that suggest antisocial tendicies. Then of coarse, you have the Unabomber of the 1980's mailing bombs to business owners and politcal targets. Later, you have Oklahoma City and 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. So, you see the mass media and popular culture has evolved the shy little nerdy guy into a killing terrorist. Any guess what this is leading to.

So, to summarize, you have a laundry list of stupid laws and a whole civilian populace more than eager to police their neighbors.




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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 18:03


Quote:


Many (if not most) of officials were corrupted. Small pribes or help in aquiring western made goods was often enough to get things what were officially not available for you. About half of society was quite treatable by bribes or otherwise but another half belived sincerelly that they live in best possible country in the world and were able to report what they saw or heard. You never knew to whom you speak.

One did not need good education, job interviews or anything to get work which was enough to have house, car and children. .


Thats quite interesting - I'd hazard a guess that that half of society who sincerely believed is that half which is starving right now, while the half that took bribes have found that they are best able to make a transition to what they call 'the market economy' - and you can guess which half the government is in.

But some things were very good. A while back in a Russian supermarket my wife and I were confronted by a couple of girls at stands trying to flog things of - just like in our supermarkets except they were relatively new to Russia at the time. We were quite amuzed and said yes we will buy it. They got very embarassed, and said we dont have to, maybe we were not planning on spending on this sort of stuff now.

And I thought what a difference from the stupid b..ches in Australian supermarkets, or the people ringing us at home regularly to flog things off. They would never give a second thought that maybe theyve put a person in a difficult situation, he couldnt say 'no', and now he'll buy something he doesnt need and might be short of money for somerhing he does. That's after all is why they are there - to use their persuasion to get you to do something you werent going to. If you are too easily swayed or cant control your finances is not their problem. They certainly have no shame exploiting such people. I say our people should be ashamed of this aspect of our society - and perhaps some things are better in 'our enemies' camp.

As for books. Why does a good chem book here cost $140 when in Russia you could buy an equivalent for $20. Why cant I afford to buy many books here. Why are we making money out of knowledge? Is that why we have a stupid society, getting back to the topic - because nobody wants to give something for free? IS that the reason for why were going were we are?

Registering Erlenmeyer flasks - its probably not coincidental that the most brutal state in the US seems to be also the dumbest. Anything you can do in Erlenmeyer you can do in a glass. And anyone with any experienece in chem practice at all would know that if you wanted to make trafficable quantities of drugs or explosives standard lab apparatus is useless for you. Yod be dealing in 10-100 kgs quantities of reagents for which the pots and pans anf other gear in Kmart is far more suitable. Lets ban Kmart.

[Edited on 19-7-2008 by len1]
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 18:21


Quote:
Originally posted by len1
Registering Erlenmeyer flasks - its probably not coincidental that the most brutal state in the US seems to be also the dumbest. Anything you can do in Erlenmeyer you can do in a glass. And anyone with any experience in chem practice at all would know that if you wanted to make trafficable quantities of drugs or explosives standard lab apparatus is useless for you. Yo'd be dealing in 10-100 kgs quantities of reagents for which the pots and pans anf other gear in Kmart is far more suitable. Lets ban Kmart.]

Here in New Zealand, one can buy Pyrex (or other branded heat-resistant borosilicate glass) kitchenware, from variety and hardware and similar stores, that can be used as substitutes for beakers and Erlenmeyer (conical) flasks and even as bell-jar dessicators. Are such items banned in Texa$ (the most brutal and corrupt state in the U$A as you say), along with regular laboratory glassware?
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 19:55


Quote:
Originally posted by JohnWW
Are such items banned in Texas


Texas law requires that individuals register many types of lab equipment, but beakers and test tubes are not on the list, so such kitchenware is not restricted.

Many of the items on the list are extremely/unreasonably vague. E.g., 'transformer', 'adaptor tube', 'flask heater', which could all mean many things. As absurd as it is to regulate 'erlenmeyer flasks', at least that is a more-or-less well-defined term.

BTW - I am not going to try and defend everything about Texas, but please note that our (infamously) distinguished President really pretends to be a Texan, he is really a blue-blood from Connecticut. (Although he did get elected Governor here, despite my vote against him.)


[Edited on 18-7-2008 by pantone159]
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[*] posted on 18-7-2008 at 19:56


I always love JohnWW's little rants about the USA.

It's true we have a monopoly on corruption.

On the other hand the last New Zealand cop I knew, whose name is Graham Cleghorn, was booted off the Wellington PD, where he was a grand theft auto detective, for running his own car theft ring.

And he is now in jail in Cambodia for pedophilia. Do a Google on the name and you will hear all about him. One of the most corrupt individuals I have ever known. a Kiwi.




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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 01:30


Quote:
Originally posted by len1
Thats quite interesting - I'd hazard a guess that that half of society who sincerely believed is that half which is starving right now, while the half that took bribes have found that they are best able to make a transition to what they call 'the market economy' - and you can guess which half the government is in.

Of course, although i am not quite sure about starving.
Quote:

A while back in a Russian supermarket my wife and I were confronted by a couple of girls at stands trying to flog things of - just like in our supermarkets except they were relatively new to Russia at the time. We were quite amuzed and said yes we will buy it. They got very embarassed, and said we dont have to, maybe we were not planning on spending on this sort of stuff now.

Soviet union lived according marxist ideology wich said that making easy and high profits by reselling goods is root of all evil in the world. In soviet union director of enterprise earned only two or maybe three times more than his workers. Hi did not get any profits by particular transactions but earned every month one and the same fixed wage. No matter how bad or good his business went.

Trying to collect more property than one actully needs was considered unethical and was often interpreted allegorically as stealing from those who actully need it. Trying to earn much more than common wages were was also considered unethical. There was very few advertising, nobody never did any tricks to sell you something as someones income was not related to amount of sold goods. This economy had of course very serious problems. Many of produced goods were of low quality and there was not enough of them. Leaders had no motivation to exert oneself as wages did not depend on achieved results.

Quite beautiful aspect of that time was general intellectual atmosphere. This is one of few things i trully miss. There was no foolish advertising, TV and radio had almost no low quality entertainment. Radio played mostly classical music, aproximately quarter of time was completely uninteresting ideological propaganda but after that everything had intellectual touch in it. There was lot of popular science and educational programs. Books where cheaper than chocolates. People did not talk about Teletubbies, Colgate toothpaste or special prices on new Toyota automobile, and even when drunk they often talked about geography, science or culture as this was what they just read from books or saw on TV.


[Edited on 19-7-2008 by chromium]




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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 06:14


@len1&chromium- Absolutely fascinating! I never had this much insight into Soviet Society. I can remember growing up in Reagan America in the 1980's and being told that the Soviet Union was an Empire of Evil. But thanks to your generosity with information, I got a common- man vew of what Soviet life was truly like. It sounds like it was oppressive but the intellectual atmosphere sounds like a dream. Do we need a police state in the USA so we can have an inspiring atmosphere? Or, are we going to be so oppressed that we will simply have nothing to live for.



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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 08:49


Yes, thanks chromium for that fascinating insight into soviet life. I always suspected that htere was strong support of the arts and intellectual pursuits by the government but never knew that it also existed at the level of the common man.

Quote:

Do we need a police state in the USA so we can have an inspiring atmosphere?


A police state based on the philosophy of the current occupants would be the worst of all worlds. After all, aren't they the ones who have coerced and tried to eliminate PBS.
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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 15:11


I grew up in Spain under Franco and went to school there from the early '60s through the early '70s. One could do just about anything or purchase anything. Virtually anything non-radioactive was available OTC (glassware, picric acid, acids, salts, organics, chloral hydrate, alkaloids-including opiates, stimulants, depressants, etc.) with no questions asked from the farmacia or chemical companies - but one would end up going to jail for cannabis possession.

During those years, Barcelona was the safest large port city on the Mediterranean. A man or woman could walk anywhere at any hour with no fear of mischief occurring.

As long as a person did not blatantly criticize the government or advocate for one of the separatist groups, they were likely to be left alone. If you were involved with the wrong people, you could end up in prison/jail. The Guardia Civil were always present - if only just visible in the distance. It was arguably a dictatorship.

After Franco's death, it was as though flood gates had opened. Many in self-exile or otherwise returned. Anarchists, Marxists, separatists, etc. Barcelona/Catalunia had always been a very "progressive" region and many of these were there underground anyway. New "freedoms" were discovered by many. Many of them were good and welcome along with many that were destructive.
Aside from the rallies and festive feelings in the air and after the "new rule" of parliamentary democracy came in, one of the first things I noticed was graffiti (everywhere) of political or sexual nature - defacing the beautiful stone buildings. Pornografia - once forbidden, being sold everywhere in public, and the open use of cannabis. Shortly after this, one could no longer purchase the above mentioned raw chemicals that had physiologic effects without paperwork and later, salts, acids, organics started becoming more restricted.

The size of the government increased dramatically and has continued to since that time. I have family still there and so keep abreast pretty closely with what is going on.

Today, there are many barrios in Barcelona unsafe to walk through, night or day. This is unfortunately largely due to the hugh influx of peoples from Northern Africa and their associated problems of not wanting to assimilate as they once did (more so). There is considerable drug problem/trafficking and this is increasingly being used as excuse to further tighten restrictions on all chemicals.

It will be interesting to see the fireworks community response if they start seeing restrictions (Spain has wonderful fireworks).

As the EU becomes more powerful, the central authorities will be increasingly remove "privileges" granted to the citizens. This happens everywhere; as individual rights increase - government control decreases. As government control increases - individual right decrease. Axiomatic. The saying ..a government powerful enough to provide for all ones needs is also powerful enough to take all... - is enlightening.

I think less government "help" is more in line with the objectives of most in this wonderful group of thinkers. This at least is my hope.

I agree with some of the above posters that the seemingly poorly written/ambiguous laws we see more and more CAN and will be used if the authorities chose to apply them to suit there desires. All of this does not seem encouraging.
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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 18:05


Spain has had a colorful past as well so it seems. I guess the important thing is having hope that there can be somewhere else for us to go if it gets too bad. Maybe living in a third world nation for 8 or 10 years( or more) may be the answer until some major government overhauls can be done in the first world.



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[*] posted on 2-8-2008 at 21:16


@garage chemist, Please post here and let us know your all right. If you have any info about the raids, the original topic, please post that also.



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[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 04:58


In Germany three new changes have occurred:

1) Starting at July 1, 2008, online sellers of chemicals are responsible for abuse of the chemicals they sell. So, if one of the customers of such a company does something illegal with one of the chemicals they sell, then the owner of the company will be punished for this.

2) The following compounds may not be sold to private individuals, starting at July 28, 2008:
1. Ammoniumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 6484-52-2) und den in Satz 2 genannten ammoniumnitrathaltigen Zubereitungen,
2. Kaliumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 3811-04-9),
3. Kaliumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7757-79-1),
4. Kaliumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7778-74-7),
5. Kaliumpermanganat (CAS-Nummer 7722-64-7),
6. Natriumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7775-09-9),
7. Natriumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7631-99-4),
8. Natriumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7601-89-0),
9. Wasserstoffperoxidlösungen mit einem Massengehalt von mehr als 12%

3) At the end of July 2008 a letter is sent to all pharmacies, with the subject 'Verdachtsmeldung'. This means that any suspicious purchase of chemicals should be mentioned to the police. The letter explicitly mentions that purchases of oxidizers are suspicious by default. From now on, when you buy chemicals in a pharmacy, you need some sort of ID. .

These three new laws/rules make it almost impossible for a German amateur chemist to obtain any chemical in Germany. This is a very effective way of completely ruining the hobby of home chemistry. At the German forum (somewhat like sciencemadness, www.versuchschemie.de) things are discussed in great detail, but it looks like doing home chemistry in Germany is almost impossible, except for the most simple things like making bubbles of soda and that kind of stuff.

Suppliers from other EU-countries are kept on eye on by German customs. Parcels coming from one of these suppliers will be checked by customs when they go into Germany. So, online buying chems from e.g. the Netherlands or Austria is not an option, unless you pick up the chems yourself by driving to those countries and picking up the chemicals.


If I read all these things, then it really makes me sad and worried. How long will it take before other EU countries also introduce such draconian rules? In just two months time, the situation has changed for Germany from being one of the best countries for home chemistry to being the worst country for home chemists, probably of the entire western world.



[Edited on 3-8-08 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 05:09


OK, just WTF prompted this?
Usually inane regulations come out of some highly publicized incident, but what exactly prompted them to go gestapo on hobbyists?

The chems now essentially banned are obviously explosive precursors, odd considering their cover was GBL, a drug precursor.

I don't get their game, they aren't even pandering to the unwashed masses this time.

:mad:




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[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 05:17


This also is a complete mystery to me. I simply do not understand what is going on in Germany, although I only live a few tens of km from that country (and I occasionally visit it). I do not believe this is a gestapo on hobbyists, I think that the damage done to hobbyists is collateral damage, which is deemed acceptable by the government.



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[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 05:27


Theyve leap-frogged us. Here KMnO4, H2O2 are still perfectly fine. Pity - I found them very trusting people compared to our locals.
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[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 05:37


Collateral damage? What was the real target then? We all know how the media loves to to take any incident and sensationalize it, but there is no word on anything prompting this.



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[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 05:42


Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
In Germany three new changes have occurred:

1) Starting at July 1, 2008, online sellers of chemicals are responsible for abuse of the chemicals they sell. So, if one of the customers of such a company does something illegal with one of the chemicals they sell, then the owner of the company will be punished for this.

2) The following compounds may not be sold to private individuals, starting at July 28, 2008:
1. Ammoniumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 6484-52-2) und den in Satz 2 genannten ammoniumnitrathaltigen Zubereitungen,
2. Kaliumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 3811-04-9),
3. Kaliumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7757-79-1),
4. Kaliumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7778-74-7),
5. Kaliumpermanganat (CAS-Nummer 7722-64-7),
6. Natriumchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7775-09-9),
7. Natriumnitrat (CAS-Nummer 7631-99-4),
8. Natriumperchlorat (CAS-Nummer 7601-89-0),
9. Wasserstoffperoxidlösungen mit einem Massengehalt von mehr als 12%

3) At the end of July 2008 a letter is sent to all pharmacies, with the subject 'Verdachtsmeldung'. This means that any suspicious purchase of chemicals should be mentioned to the police. The letter explicitly mentions that purchases of oxidizers are suspicious by default. From now on, when you buy chemicals in a pharmacy, you need some sort of ID. .

These three new laws/rules make it almost impossible for a German amateur chemist to obtain any chemical in Germany. This is a very effective way of completely ruining the hobby of home chemistry. At the German forum (somewhat like sciencemadness, www.versuchschemie.de) things are discussed in great detail, but it looks like doing home chemistry in Germany is almost impossible, except for the most simple things like making bubbles of soda and that kind of stuff.

Suppliers from other EU-countries are kept on eye on by German customs. Parcels coming from one of these suppliers will be checked by customs when they go into Germany. So, online buying chems from e.g. the Netherlands or Austria is not an option, unless you pick up the chems yourself by driving to those countries and picking up the chemicals.


If I read all these things, then it really makes me sad and worried. How long will it take before other EU countries also introduce such draconian rules? In just two months time, the situation has changed for Germany from being one of the best countries for home chemistry to being the worst country for home chemists, probably of the entire western world.



[Edited on 3-8-08 by woelen]


This comes as terrible news especially as I have seen numerous German influences on chemistry literature in the late 19th century/early 20th century. Americans would marvel at the inovative geerman chemical industry. We would not have cheap Ammonia without the German chemists. So the irony is more bitter than strychnine, Germany once the center of chemical invention is now the center of evil globalist scientific oppression.:mad::mad:

Governments are to blame for sure but all those selfish greedy drug dealers are to blame too. Just because they want to make money without a honest days work, the fun and wonder is taken away from science ultimately resulting in another dark age.




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