Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2    4  
Author: Subject: GBL: 600 raids in Germany, Austria, Switzerland
not_important
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 06:59


Sounds similar to the Canadians:
Quote:

Mar. 31 - Canada: Restricted Components Regulations
From Canada’s Ministry of Natural Resources, and recently printed in the Canada Gazette. The full text of the regulations is available here. A few key details:

What it covers:
The following components of an explosive are prescribed for the purpose of the definition “restricted component” in section 2 of the Act:

(a) ammonium nitrate in solid form at a concentration between 28 and 34% nitrogen;

(b) hydrogen peroxide at a concentration of at least 30%, UN numbers: 2015 and 3149;

(c) nitromethane, UN number: 1261;

(d) potassium chlorate, UN number: 1485;

(e) potassium perchlorate, UN number: 1489;

(f) sodium chlorate in solid form, UN number: 1495;

(g) nitric acid at a concentration of at least 68%, UN numbers: 2031 and 2032;

(h) potassium nitrate, UN numbers: 1486 and 1499; and

(i) sodium nitrate in solid form, UN numbers: 1498 and 1499.

[Section 3 of the Act]

These components will no longer be available for sale in Canada:
No person shall sell a restricted component except in accordance with these Regulations.

[Section 4 of the Act]
Unless the seller is on the list of sellers of restricted components

The restrictions on Ammonium Nitrate come into effect on June 1, 2008 and the restrictions on all other chemicals come into effect on March 1, 2009


And the USA
Quote:

Three of the four points of paragraph 5 in the judge's order that may have the greatest effect on amateur rocket scientists are that Firefox is permanently restrained from "participating in any transaction that involves selling, giving away, holding for sale, or otherwise distributing:"

* To any delivery address or to any individual, more than one pound of any oxidizer per twelve-month period;
* To any delivery address or to any individual, any fuel for which the particle size is finer than 100 mesh (or particles less than 150 microns in size); and
* To any delivery address or to any individual, any tube 10 inches or shorter in length.

As defined in the order, "Oxidizer" means ammonium nitrate, potassium chlorate, potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium nitrate, barium nitrate, strontium nitrate, or potassium permanganate. "Fuel" means aluminum and aluminum alloys, magnesium, magnesium/aluminum alloys (magnalium), antimony sulfide, antimony trisulfide, potassium benzoate, sodium benzoate, sodium salicylate, sulfur, titanium, zinc, zirconium, or zirconium hydride.


Looks like the West as just about handy 21st century chemistry to the Indians and Chinese, rocketry too perhaps. Primary and secondary educational organizations are cut out in the Canadian case, unless they're run by the government; I doubt that many will want to deal with anything so obviously dangerous. Even higher education establishments are likely to think twice, and some breath mints mixed with carbonated beverages don't seem to me to be a great hook on getting kids excited about chemistry so those chemistry (and physics?) departments may have few students.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
franklyn
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 09:55


The inadvertent curtailment of amateur chemistry is a consequence of anonymous
diversion of chemicals for unlawful end use. Commerce involving chemical substances
is not banned, just more stringently monitored and regulated. Legitimate use not
specifically outlawed has to be defended on its own merit. This is a political matter,
not one of legislation or law enforcement. Pest exterminators always required
licensing to use pesticides, pharmacies of course require to be registered, garden
and horticultural users also need to provide information on fertilizer transactions.

Firearms use is licensed and purchases are recorded in the same way for the
same reasons. The United States has a tradition of individual firearm ownership
which is zealously protected by principally the National Rifle Association.
There is no lobby for amateur chemists, hence we are not heard or acknowledged.
The only realistic remedy to becoming a marginalised minority is to provide some
form of registration or licensing for individual end users.

.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
*****




Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 12:52


Anybody remember what happened when the US government banned alcohol in the 30's?

Look at the bright side, more power for the amateur chemist, with every legislative crackdown you gain knowledge, means and thus power over the unwitting masses. Just don't do stupid stuff which gets you caught.

The laws of nature will always prevail over ignorant politicians, no matter how hard they'll try. Suck it up, wait a few years and laugh yourself silly when poetic justice kicks in.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 13:15


This really makes me sick for the German home chemists. If you have ever visited the versuchchemie.de site you quickly see what an enthusiastic and competent bunch they are, even though most are quite young. Unfortunately, this latest political invective may, out of necessity, turn them all into total synthesis freaks.

As for my position in the US, it is a warning shot across the bow.

[Edited on 3-8-2008 by Magpie]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
*****




Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline

Mood: crystalline

[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 16:23


Quote:
I do not believe this is a gestapo on hobbyists, I think that the damage done to hobbyists is collateral damage, which is deemed acceptable by the government.

I'm also most concerned by this.
I hope the Germans on that forum at versuchschemie raise some serious law suits. If I had been raided in this manner, I'd certainly sue, even if it meant selling all my chems to pay for the friggin laywers :P

I agree this is considered collateral damage. Germans have always been weird about a few things - take nuclear power for example. Totally irrational to prohibit it to the extent they do. They actually chain themselves to the rail tracks when a 'castor transport' (delivering nuclear waste to a storage site) happens, and people were in fact killed becuase the chained people weren't released fast enough from the rails. It is because there is a very significant green movement in Germany, and of course the fear of anything nuclear (in part due to WW2, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, essentially directly a product of German scientists, and the war itself). I think this extends to anything explosive related nowadays - and perhaps even science altogether. Science unfortunately does not have the same credentials in Germany as it used to - again for historical reasons- because so much of science was abused for the purpose of war. This is why, before the war, Germany had more than 50% of all Nobel prizes together. Whilst, after the war, the emphasis was on restructuring the country, generating a happy peaceful people that would not dabble in things that could ever be abused for war purposes. Hence the green movement too, and the antinuclear stance. Basically the emphasis shifted to the well-being of the people, rather than their achievements. The former has certainly been achieved, equality is great in Germany, and people are generally very well off. Achievement is, unlike in the US, not anymore considered a lofty desirable goal. This has both positive and negative ramifications. Positive being, there aren't many poor, not much crime (comparably), and everyone is generally happy. Generally. Negative being, Germany has lost the edge scientifically for the last 50 years.
Sometimes I think this will bounce back, but given how underfunded the univeristy/science sector is, I doubt it. It is simply considered more important to make sure the unemployed are kept happy with their benefits, rather than spending that very money on massive science projects.

It's a pity in a way. But let's not forget (with this one I address the americans here) - Germany doesn't have the oil dollar, it doesn't sell huge quantities of profitable weapons, and so on - there *is* a reason why the US can afford to fund science to the degree it does! Then, undeniably, there's an extremely competitive spirit in science in the US, which is not the same here in Europe.




Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
len1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 595
Registered: 1-3-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: NZ 1 (goal) - Italy 1 (dive)

[*] posted on 3-8-2008 at 19:21


I think todays Germany has got most things right. If its worried more about lowly unemployed than funding the ego-driven money feasts of the scientific community it has that right too - compare the beauty of most German cities to the eye-sore insult to humanity of the US inner-cities. The competitive edge in US science is more appropriate to the business envirnoment than to science, where it has produced few results.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Sauron
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

[*] posted on 4-8-2008 at 07:16


Oh yes we all remember the "beauty" of much of East Germany. East Berlin still mostly in rubble well into the 1960s, two decades after the war's end.

Interesting segue from "ego-driven money feast of the scientific community" to a discussion or urban blight.

But I am really not sure what either has to do with the thread topic, in the slightest way. Are you perhaps on the same meds as JohnWW? Skipped your anti-polemic pill today? Take two tomorrow.




Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
len1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 595
Registered: 1-3-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: NZ 1 (goal) - Italy 1 (dive)

[*] posted on 4-8-2008 at 14:29


That link was of course made in the long post above, and there is a validity to it - where does an afluent society spend its money? As for thread topic - it seems the topic of all your threads is you - something Im not the least bit interested in
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Polverone
Now celebrating 18 years of madness
*********




Posts: 3164
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline

Mood: Waiting for spring

[*] posted on 4-8-2008 at 15:09


Let's try to keep this thread about the recent chemical raids and the changing regulatory environment.



PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
woelen
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 7779
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

[*] posted on 13-8-2008 at 11:47


Things in Germany are developing into really ridiculous things. Some potassium salts are considered weapons by German law (potassium salts of certain nitrated aromatic compounds) and possession of such compounds only is allowed by people, having suitable permits.

One of the guys (chemieknolle) from www.versuchschemie.de was raided and they found K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3 and a whole bunch of other chemicals. The chemicals were taken away, but now the chemicals were returned to him, except the K4Fe(CN)6 and KNO3. The reason given by the expert: "Potassium salts are considered weapons by German law". Expert????? This really is ridiculous, it is really astonishing that such incompetent people are paid by governments (and indirectly by us) and that these same incompentent people determine what happens with your property! :mad:

So, KCl, KBr, K2CO3 etc. all are considered weapons by this incompetent 'expert'. I can understand that some particular nitrated compounds are considered weapons, but this law is only read halfway by such an incompetent 'expert'. The problem in this case is not the law, but the person who has to enforce the law.




The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Sauron
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

[*] posted on 13-8-2008 at 12:36


Well, while I agree that this is ludicrous on its face, potassium (and sodium) ferrocyanide are well known as immediate precursors for HCN as is well illustrated by threads on our own forum and many places in the literature.

So one can take the legalistic position: is potassium ferrocyanide prohoboited/restricted in German law or not? If answer is yes then end of story. If answer is no then apparently the German authorities have decided to be sufficiently concerned about possible HCN sources, to overstep their authority's limits.

I hardly need to elucidate the uses of KNO3 here. Among many others, preparation of HNO3, prepn of black powder, and use in many pyrotechnic and blasting mixtures. Many or all of these have been dealt with on this forum over and over and over.

Let me repeat, I agree that these confiscations are silly, and may not have any basis in law. But let's now pretend that official concern is totally unfounded and without rational basis whatsoever.

Because that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not possession of lawfully acquired KNO3 and pot.ferrocyanide, is in fact now illegal in Germany. If not then the cops are on very thin ice.




Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
oldtimer
Harmless
*




Posts: 12
Registered: 18-8-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 01:12
Home chemist's association formed


Something is happening in Germany:

As a reaction to the events mentioned above in this thread, and to form a representation that speaks publicly in favour of people doing home chemistry and other (private) experimentation, a group of members of the German board Versuchschemie founded the

"Interessenverband Naturwissenschaft und Technik", IVNT
(interest group for schience and technology).

The constituting assembly was held on Saturday, Aug. 9. A web site (www.ivnt.de and www.ivnt.org) will appear soon, in the meantime our statutes and a membership application can be found on www.versuchschemie.de. While the group will concentrate it's activities to Germany and, to a lesser extent, other EU countries, members from all parts of the world are welcome. Annual fees are € 50 for regular members, € 20 for under 18, students, unemployed, etc.

Our main activities will be trying to influence the public perception of home experimentation, giving the home experimentator a voice, helping people (Of course, with an emphasis on members) who through their activities got the attention of law enforcement, and trying to influence rulemaking towards more liberal conditions for private science.

Any of these activities is only possible with a sufficiently large membership - only a loud voice will be heard, and only a deep war chest can move things.

I am happy to answer any questions,

info@ivnt.de

oldtimer
president IVNT
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Arrhenius
National Hazard
****




Posts: 282
Registered: 17-8-2008
Location: US & A
Member Is Offline

Mood: Stochastic

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 08:21


^^ Excellent way to respond to the issue at hand in Germany. Thanks for the info.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
joeflsts
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 09:15


Quote:
Originally posted by oldtimer
Something is happening in Germany:

As a reaction to the events mentioned above in this thread, and to form a representation that speaks publicly in favour of people doing home chemistry and other (private) experimentation, a group of members of the German board Versuchschemie founded the

"Interessenverband Naturwissenschaft und Technik", IVNT
(interest group for schience and technology).

The constituting assembly was held on Saturday, Aug. 9. A web site (www.ivnt.de and www.ivnt.org) will appear soon, in the meantime our statutes and a membership application can be found on www.versuchschemie.de. While the group will concentrate it's activities to Germany and, to a lesser extent, other EU countries, members from all parts of the world are welcome. Annual fees are € 50 for regular members, € 20 for under 18, students, unemployed, etc.

Our main activities will be trying to influence the public perception of home experimentation, giving the home experimentator a voice, helping people (Of course, with an emphasis on members) who through their activities got the attention of law enforcement, and trying to influence rulemaking towards more liberal conditions for private science.

Any of these activities is only possible with a sufficiently large membership - only a loud voice will be heard, and only a deep war chest can move things.

I am happy to answer any questions,

info@ivnt.de

oldtimer
president IVNT


This ultimately is what it is going to take around the world. There are scattered organizations in the US for example that are trying. I have also been working at a personal level in the US to get some attention to draconion laws here. The problem is:

Hobbyists in general do not have the money to get politician's attention.

It is difficult, if not impossible to get corporate sponsorship. It isn't so much a reason based on legality but more based on the fact that "profesional chemists" tend to have disdain for amateurs. Since they represent the unofficial "official" voice of buyers of most potential corporate sonspors it makes it difficult to be taken seriously.

The drug and explosive related negative news stories hurt, plain and simple.

Each major hobby tends to have it's political arm. For example the AMA represents model airplane hobbyists. Utlimately we need something similar.

Joe
View user's profile View All Posts By User
woelen
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 7779
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 11:30


I am considering joining this group, but how many members does the group have at the moment?

Unfortunately I see a tendency that professional chemists are more and more negative towards home chemistry. I am a member of a Dutch chemistry forum, not specific for home chemistry, but general chemistry. You see that most negative reactions come from professional chemists, working in industry or on universities. They simply state that home chemistry is plain wrong, irresponsible and dangerous. This has nothing to do with fear of drug-making or terrorism, they truly believe that most home chemists have good intents and do not want to do anything illegal, but they do not believe that home chemists can work safely in a residential area, without all the safety equipment and procedures, as one can expect in a serious, well-equipped lab.




The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 13:00


Quote:

They simply state that home chemistry is plain wrong, irresponsible and dangerous.


I am a retired professional chemical engineer and strongly disagree with these professional chemists. This is just a nanny state way of looking at life. They should be ashamed for taking a position that discourages inquiry into the sciences. People should be allowed to assess their own capabilities and risks.

You can find many examples in other activities and hobbies where the state does not meddle to the point of intimidation: skydiving, extreme whitewater kayaking, racecar driving, mountain climbing, etc. Even ordinary sports such as football, baseball, and horseback riding all entail a certain amount of risk to life and limb that the participant must evaluate for himself. But chemistry seems to be in a class by itself where others are deciding that the risks are not acceptable and cannot be evaluated by the participant.

People are allowed to work on their cars, use power tools, do welding, and make pottery with kilns and toxic glazes, in their own garages or backyards in residential areas. How is this so different from home chemistry?

I think the reason for this is rooted in the bad publicity that chemistry has gotten in recent years due to illegal drug making and terrorist bomb making. It didn't used to be this way. As has been eloquently expressed by Robert Bruce elsewhere on this forum a chemistry set was one of the most popular of Christmas presents as recently as the 1960's. Where were the nannies then? Why they were writing articles for Scientific American showing people how they could do sophisticated chemistry and other science projects economically at home.

[Edited on 18-8-2008 by Magpie]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 13:18


Yay :D

Academic snobbery occupies that same niche as the old axiom ......

Every crow thinks hers is the blackest.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
*****




Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 13:32


Quote:

This has nothing to do with fear of drug-making or terrorism, they truly believe that most home chemists have good intents and do not want to do anything illegal, but they do not believe that home chemists can work safely in a residential area, without all the safety equipment and procedures, as one can expect in a serious, well-equipped lab.


I'm going to bet that they're either into QM, spectroscopy or physical chemistry. That is, the kind of "chemist" that gets goose bumps from an acetone spill.

I'm pursuing a Ph. D. so I consider myself a professional chemist and will likely join this organization if it proves to be worth its salt.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
len1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 595
Registered: 1-3-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: NZ 1 (goal) - Italy 1 (dive)

[*] posted on 18-8-2008 at 15:05


Funny if one considers that most reactions of the type discussed here were made in the 19th century with labs equiped far worse than a person of typical affluence can achieve today. Its not the safety measures, rather lack of sufficient knowledge that is most worrysome. If you show yourself well equiped in that area there should be no objections
View user's profile View All Posts By User
not_important
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-8-2008 at 01:43


Ah, Len, you are being sensible, you've no career potential as a government official or job-protecting "trained professional"

I'm reminded of a company that I worked at, where new management wanted to downgrade all engineers without degrees to be technicians. This idea lasted about 1 day, until the VP of engineering pointed out that 80% of the company's patents came from 3 non-degreed engineers, and it was the non-degreed types that had come up with all the truely new product concepts and prototypes.

It appears that German police don't like much of anything:
Quote:
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BERLIN -- German police have confiscated what may be the world's fastest office chair. Police say officers happened on the contraption - the work of two inventive 17-year-olds - in the western town of Gross-Zimmern on Saturday.

The pair had added a lawnmower engine, bicycle brakes and a metal frame to the revolving chair - making into a go-kart-like vehicle.

Police said in a statement Monday the inventors insisted they had only tested it over a few meters, but witnesses reported seeing it on several streets.

They are being investigated over a variety of possible offenses, including defying insurance regulations, driving without a license and violating registration requirements.

Police did not say what top speed the chair could reach.

Groß-Zimmern? Hardly a big town, cops must have too little to do so they spend time shutting down creativity.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
len1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 595
Registered: 1-3-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: NZ 1 (goal) - Italy 1 (dive)

[*] posted on 19-8-2008 at 05:55


Yes, you are absolutely right. Most places I worked at my colleagues thought I came from another planet. Well I prefer that than the planet they come from.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
The_Davster
A pnictogen
*******




Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: .

[*] posted on 19-8-2008 at 07:44


Wow. Even in canada the gas powered couch was not confiscated. I have seen several.



View user's profile View All Posts By User
woelen
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 7779
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

[*] posted on 1-9-2008 at 12:38


Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
Lippert Lehrmittel is the name of the company, but also the family name. Their website is www.chemikalien-shop.de. The company is run by Janina Lippert, but customers relations is done by Rainer Bogatzki, who did this in a perfect way with good service.

This company was a great source for chemicals in small quantities. Here you could buy e.g. 100 ml of SOCl2 for just a few euros, also private persons. I also purchased some chemicals from this company in small quantities. But according to messages on Internet (whether it is true or not, it is unclear to me), the company had a second 'shadow company' which was selling GBL on a multitonne-scale, some customers needed to be supplied by tank-trucks or with drums of hundreds of liters. I hardly can believe this story, given the perfect service, quality and adherence to rules and regulations of the company. This really was a good company, also respecting all rules of the EU, and not some shady thing like the chemical closet.

[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen]

Through private communication I was informed that indeed HUGE amounts of GBL were sold. This was not through the official webshop, but through some other channel.

What is really disturbing though is that thrustworthy people, who purchased something in small quantities from the webshop, were raided, while they did not have anything to do with the huge sales of GBL.




The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
chief
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 630
Registered: 19-7-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-9-2008 at 04:48


My latest german experience is like that:
==> Politics and high bureaucrats say: Everything half as bad,
==> but Chem-Lobbyism ("Verband der chemischen Industrie", http://www.vci.de/, and others maybe too) "warn" the traders, not to sell certain things:

Eg. one can phone the "BundesOpiumStelle", in Bonn (http://www.bfarm.de/cln_029/DE/Home/startseite__node.html__n...),
and they will say: ==> "The certain thing is permitted".
--> Then you call the trader, and they tell you they don't want to sell, because they fear the bureaucrats, and because they have their order (warnings etc.) from the lobby, not to sell !

It seems, that at the head of the country there are still some people right in the head, but lower-rank-bureaucrats abuse their possibilities (they just brake the law, backed by the boss, knowing that to sue them is too expensive for most small businesses; and if sued successfully: they don't pay personally anyways ).

It's mainly a lobby-thing, I believe:
==> Separation of the customers from the industry is almost complete: Ordinary people just have to buy the water-thinned things from the drug-store, and give the 1000+ % profit to the few remaining companies
==> and now: Maybe just also separate the small businesses from their busines.

Without the lobby-ism of big chem-companies, they could by far not exist that well. The more they forbid simple things, the more important they get, so spending the money o the lobby-ism is just a good investment for them ..., and they just ride the wave and use the occasion (anti-terror etc.)

Besides most of the terrorism anyway, as from the newspapers, is made via military explosives: They have theyr sources in the armies etc., and viewed in that light: Maybe the one or other attack is just "planted" by some secret agency ... and it regularly was in the past, as 20th century-history tells ... .

So far ...

[Edited on 21-9-2008 by chief]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Suspicious

[*] posted on 26-9-2008 at 14:01


Quote:

What is really disturbing though is that thrustworthy people, who purchased something in small quantities from the webshop, were raided, while they did not have anything to do with the huge sales of GBL.


We shouldn't make generalizations or assumptions. Just because he/they sold large amounts of GBL does not necessarily mean that they are untrustworthy.

Also, the people that purchased GBL are also not necessarily untrustworthy. Just because you make, sell or consume drugs does not mean you cannot be trusted. This is a common misconception.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
 Pages:  1  2    4  

  Go To Top