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len1
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Reminds me of the Soviet gulags, where everone thought all were here for a reason except himself. Realy worth a read - The Gulag Archipelago, by
Alexander Solzhenitsin, if you want to understand what really drives people.
@woelen In this case if he had his chemicals locked up in a cupboard he probably wouldnt have had this happen. And if you dont demonstrate on the
forum you make explosives while making your identity traceable, it wouldnt have happened to you either, someone might write later. So what if you had
all your chems nice and tidy. (God forbid I dont want this to happen to anyone, this is just a demonstration of logic).
[Edited on 15-8-2008 by len1]
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: | | And if you dont demonstrate on the forum you make explosives while making your identity traceable, it wouldnt have happened to you either, someone
might write later. So what if you had all your chems nice and tidy. (God forbid I dont want this to happen to anyone, this is just a demonstration of
logic). |
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Could you please elaborate?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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no1uno
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A similar home chemist arrest story from Australia, some of you may have noticed the absence of somebody from here and elsewhere? There home was
raided and they were arrested for (1) possession of glassware; and (2) possession of scientific journal articles (some 5% of which had some relevance
to either methamphetamine, methylenedioxyamphetamine and/or some analogue thereof, the rest consisted of the 'normal' range of journal articles). No
listed chemicals were found, nor was there any evidence of intent to manufacture any prohibited substance.
Notwithstanding the absence of any evidence of actual 'illegal' activity, this person is now facing prosecution on charges which combined carry a
potential 40 years imprisonment. Their household cleaning products have all been confiscated (also including several bowls of sugar and other
condiments), there glassware collection is gone and their house has been ransacked (they broke every lightbulb in the fucking place - they actually
broke them off, fucked if I know why).
Stay tuned
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chromium
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Why exactly you do not tell us who it is?
| Quote: | Originally posted by no1uno
Notwithstanding the absence of any evidence of actual 'illegal' activity, this person is now facing prosecution on charges which combined carry a
potential 40 years imprisonment. |
What you say is impossible. No one can be prosecuted if there is no crime (proven or frame-up). He/She must be accused in something that could give
those 40 years. So what this is?
[Edited on 17-8-2008 by chromium]
When all think alike, then no one is thinking. - Walter Lippmann
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no1uno
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NYET, I described precisely as it happened (as I have been informed, first-hand). The local GEFEPO has decided to launch a test-case, in order to
determine whether the legislation bans the possession of these two in and of themselves with nothing else being required. That is the way of life
here, now.
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len1
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There is no legislation in Australia carrying the penalty you mentioned for the things you mentioned. Also the place is sufficiently small that media
here carries stories of pretty much every 'bust'. So to have any validity this story needs a reference, a mention of a state, and mention of the
username, so we can see that he really has disappered (though this part in itself will prove nothing)
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no1uno
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Au contraire, mon ami, au contraire. Len1, details of the relevant legislation has been sent to you via PM. Please feel free to make a note as to
whether or not you regard it as authentic and the laws to be as described. The person described is quite probably behind the lack of the ability of
contributor's here to edit their own posts after 48 hours.
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len1
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Im sorry I was wrong. I was under the impression the penalties in qld were a couple of years max. I accessed QLD independently of the link you
posted an can confirm.
1) Interestingly the legislation makes it clear just having a link on your computer to a document/site containing instructions on how to make drugs
is sufficient to fall under legilsation (see below) So sciencemadness falls in the category!
2) Possessing a reaction vessel carries a max sentence of 15 yrs. A reaction vessel is not there defined. Could be anything - pots and pans.
3) You still didnt provide reference to the actual facts or a username. The cloak and dagger is a bit suspicious. Nonetheless the legislation is
outrageous in itself. Hail fascism! Enjoy
(PS there is thankfully no corresponding legislation yet in VIC, NSW, SA)
Publishing or possessing instructions for producing
dangerous drugs
(1) A person who unlawfully publishes instructions, or
unlawfully has possession of a document containing
instructions, about the way to produce a dangerous drug
commits a crime.
Maximum penalty—
(a) if the dangerous drug to which the instructions relate is a
thing specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 1—25 years imprisonment; or
(b) if the dangerous drug to which the instructions relate is a
thing specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 2—20 years imprisonment.
(2) It is a defence to a charge of an offence against subsection (1)
of unlawfully publishing instructions, or unlawfully
possessing a document containing instructions, about the way
to produce cannabis as a commercial fibre or seed crop, for a
person to prove that the person published the instructions, or
possessed the document containing the instructions, for a
purpose authorised under part 5B.2
(3) In this section—
document containing instructions about the way to produce a
dangerous drug includes anything designed to enable
electronic access specifically to the instructions.
Example of a thing designed to enable electronic access to instructions—
a document containing a computer password specifically designed to
give access through a computer to the instructions
publish includes publish to any person and supply, exhibit
and display to any person, whether the publication is made
orally or in written, electronic or another form.
Possessing relevant substances or things
(1) A person who unlawfully possesses a relevant substance or
thing commits a crime.
Maximum penalty—15 years imprisonment.
(2) In this section—
relevant substance or thing means—
(a) a substance that is, or contains, a controlled substance
and the gross weight of the relevant substance is of, or
exceeds, the gross weight specified in the Drugs Misuse
Regulation 1987, schedule 8A in respect of the relevant
substance; or
(b) substances that together are, or contain, a controlled
substance and the total gross weight of the relevant
substances is of, or exceeds, the total of the gross
weights specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 8A in respect of the relevant substances; or
(c) a thing specified in the Drugs Misuse Regulation 1987,
schedule 8B.
Schedule 8B
1 condenser
2 distillation head
3 heating mantle
4 manual or mechanical pill press, including a pill press under
repair, a modification of a pill press and parts for a pill press
5 rotary evaporator
6 reaction vessel, including a reaction vessel under repair or a
modification of a reaction vessel
7 splash head, including a splash head under repair or parts for a splash head
[Edited on 17-8-2008 by len1]
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no1uno
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Maybe the person involved is mildly concerned about the possibility that, especially given that you have already made the point that SM may well be
classed as falling within the ambit of s.8A and the prosecution brief has not yet made clear what they are and are not going to attempt to prove, that
it be made clear that they are not seeking to 'destroy evidence' (the penalties for that, once proceedings are afoot are severe). There is also the
other possibility, that knowing that this is one site frequented by LE, who being in possession of the material dealing specifically with their
predicament, the person might justifiably not want to be associated with any username that might make their life more difficult than it already is.
Just a series of possibly erroneous conclusions, I don't actually know
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len1
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In that case, if all he was doing is science at home, Im very sorry. Qld will eventually pay for this - its destined to become a technological
backwater.
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no1uno
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Yeah, clever state my arse
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chromium
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| Quote: | Originally posted by len1
1) Interestingly the legislation makes it clear just having a link on your computer to a document/site containing instructions on how to make drugs
is sufficient to fall under legilsation (see below) So sciencemadness falls in the category!
2) Possessing a reaction vessel carries a max sentence of 15 yrs. A reaction vessel is not there defined. Could be anything - pots and pans.
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I do not know what QLD is but i still can not belive this is what it looks like. Maybe Sauron could comment, he can understand legislations better
than most of us.
Many online scientific journals contain information on making drugs and are in obligatory usage at universities. Patents too, contain such
information.
Something that is so undefined as reaction vessel just can not give you 15 years in prison, otherwise every citizen could be prosecuted for having
one. For example if one will sue that australian citizen X. has reaction vessel then courts must have some way not to prosecute him. Otherwise they
can soon do nothing more than just give everyone 15 years for nothing.
Maybe this law is just something which can only be used to maximise charges when crime (like making drugs or explosive devices) is already proven?
Internet forums with theyr anonymity have one big problem. If someone does not log in for a while we do not know if something has happened to him or
he is just busy. There are quite some formerly active members of whom we know nothing. Pre-internet communication forms did not have this problem. Now
it may be possible to eliminate half of the members before other half will get clear evidence that something is indeed happening.
[Edited on 17-8-2008 by chromium]
When all think alike, then no one is thinking. - Walter Lippmann
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not_important
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QLD = Queensland, home of the Moreton Bay penal colony at one time.
Various institutions have made laws as vague as the one regarding "reaction vessel", in the USA the law in Texas was so written that a coffee maker
could be considered as apparatus in a drug lab (as indeed it is, used to prepare extracts of the addictive substance caffeine). Laws that put a
goodly portion of the populace in violation of them are useful, they can reinforce other charges or simple be used to lock up an annoying but
otherwise law abiding citizen to shut them up for awhile; otherwise the laws just sit there generally not enforced until needed.
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Sauron
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Any comment I would make on this asinine and reactionary legislation, which is a complete violation of basic principles of freedom of thought and
inquiry, and an example of a police state run amok and trampling the rights of the populace, can only be obscene and gesticulatory which really does
not work well over the Internet.
Even those barbarians in Texas would not dare to go so far.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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no1uno
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What they are generally kept for is to ensure that when the flying monkey squad (Qld Police are led by Judy Spence, the original wicked witch of OZ,
east) fucks up and spends a shitload of its brand new annual budget flying forensic chemists about the place (plus paying for >10 pigs all day and
then on overtime) on something that turns out not to be a drug-lab, that they can show some result.
The result in this case will be other than expected, they seem to have ignored the fact that penal provisions are habitually read in the manner most
beneficial to the accused person. As a result, legal action is pending the conclusion of the prosecution, but just be aware of the situation.
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Sauron
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Once a law is passed the intent of the people who drafted the legislation is out the window. It's then a tool in the hands of the prosecutors, who
take what was intended to be a scalpel and instead weild it like a machete in the hands of a psychopath.
My old pal Gordon Liddy when he was an assistant secretary of the treasury department drafted the Omnibus Crime Control Act, I had occasion to discuss
it in detail with him and he told me flatly that it was being used in a manner totally inconsistent with what he wrote and for that matter, contrary
to the intent of Congress.
A very similar situation prevails with the RICO laws, which were intended to apply very narrowly to traditional organized crime (e.g., the Mafia) and
which basically deprive defendants of basic constitutional rights. However from the git-go prosecutors have applied RICO to a lot of cases that have
nothing to do with the Mafia.
Same goes for civil property forfeiture "arrest the money" cases.
Bad laws that ought to be done away with.
But this Ozzie thing is the worst I have heard of. The cops and the prosecutors want to win cases without the inconvenience and hassle of evidence,
proof of criminal intent, and so on - you know, all those little details that the pettygogging lawyers use to frustrate good old fashioned justice.
Next step will be dispensing with trials and proceeding straight to summary executions (lynching by any other name.)
[Edited on 18-8-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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len1
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I am just stunned by the lack of education brutal disregard for consequences in this legislation.
Possession of heroin is listed in the same clause with the same punishment as possession of a condenser. Its as if it was drafted by stone age
people, to whom both things look equally illegal.
I suppose they decided to leave it to the judge to use his judgement - theorectically he can dole out 1 yr for possessing heroin and 15 years for
possessing a condenser. With so much left to the judges mercy why not then dispense with the law books (and legislators!) altogether and save a lot
of money. Just bring people in front of the judge and see if he likes them.
Thank God I left queensland all those years ago. The climate is great, but as for this ..
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MagicJigPipe
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This is absolutely F**KING REDICULOUS. This is the kind of tyranny that demands immediate action. It's far past the point of protest, petition and
demonstration (if even that is still tolerated there). I don't even want to come out and say exactly what I mean but I'm sure the message is clear.
Sometimes drastic times call for drastic measures.
I've got my eyes on the Australian people. I would really love to see them set a good example for the rest of us.
I think this is past the point of words. However, that is, of course, ultimately for Austrailians to decide in a time where personal decisions are
aren't the norm.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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len1
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One of ther key sources of income for Queensland, is the retirement dollar, and the technology dollar, the former has been for ages, the latter they
are keen to cultivate.
Maybe you would like to acquaint people who are thinking of moving to QLD, as they are browsing thru the glossy leaflets put out by the Queensland
State Government, with the following legislation which the same government passed. Even if they do no science at home (and many people developing
patents do work at home), I have found those who are still outraged by the brutal disregard for personal freedom.
The act is called Drugs Misuse Act 1986. (This is a current act as you can see in the URL, it has just been amended many times since its
introduction)
www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/D/DrugsMisuseA86.pdf
the following is the regulation the act refers to (the act outlines what you must and mustnt do in schedules, and the penalties, the regulations say
what the schedules contain).
www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/D/DrugsMisuseR87.pdf
The take home message being: if you plan to do RD in your spare time, and/or value personal freedoms, dont move to Queensland.
[Edited on 18-8-2008 by len1]
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Ramiel
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If we are talking about the person I think we're talking about, I think we can assume he had it coming, shocking state of the legislation
notwithstanding.
Caveat Orator
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MagicJigPipe
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Who would that be? Does panache live in Queensland or NSW?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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no1uno
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A person with NO (a) listed chemicals; and/or (b) demonstrated intent to produce anything illegal - had it coming?
That is like suggesting that chicks who (a) wear short skirts; and (b) go out at night; deserve whatever happens to them, up to and including
rape/murder.
Then again, you might have some way of justifying the statement made, fucked if I can see it but
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JohnWW
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Queensland has one of the world's most corrupt Pig forces; - they routinely take bribes, especially where drugs or even the slightest suspicion
thereof is concerned, and they especially solicit bribes from alleged "suspects" whom they know are rich and/or influential. The Australian Federal
Pigs, the New South Wales State Pigs, and Victoria State Pigs are not far behind; while the West Australia Pigs are noted for their brutality. (I am
not sure about the Northern Territory, South Australia, and Tasmania State Pigs).
Scores of them have been exposed for corruption offenses over the last 30 or so years, especially with the rise there in the 1970s of drug "kingpins"
who used to smuggle in tons of heroin from southeast Asia on ocean-going yachts. However, this smuggling method is now too risky, due to pirates off
the coasts of Thailand, Indonesia, Burma, and Malaysia, and due to beefed-up Australian Customs and Coastguard patrols off the Australian coast. Even
anti-corruption squads have been "tainted". Just a few months ago, the Deputy Commissioner of the Australian Federal Pigs, in Canberra, A.C.T., who
was regarded as "untouchable", was exposed for taking bribes from drug-dealers in return for being "tipped off" in advance about pending Pig raids.
Those Queensland drug laws were passed during the many years of the Fascist State government (which looks like being permanently out of power now,
along with the former Howard Federal régime) of Joh Bjelke-Petersen, a Bible-banging hypocrite and blatant racist. However, due to its inertia and
fear of upsetting a small but vocal "wowser" minority, the Labor Government now in power there still has not gotten around to repealing the oppressive
laws and returning to the previous status quo, even though the laws are clearly contrary to and countermanded by Federal human-rights laws
(particularly the equivalent of the U.S. First, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments).
[Edited on 19-8-08 by JohnWW]
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Sauron
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I think if Ramiel wanted to name names he would have done, so baiting him to do so is just a waste of time.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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12AX7
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Impressive JohnWW, three whole paragraphs without using a dollarsign! Pork farming seems a rather trangential subject to politics, though, I'm not
sure I understand your repeated references to that there.
Tim
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