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Author: Subject: Underground Gadgets & Chemical Supply
Sauron
International Hazard

Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
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Mood: metastable

He is selling schlock at platinum prices.

Iron filings, fine, but steel filings? Useless chemically.

Just as an example.

I only recall one member saying he wanted to start a business like this, and then nothing more was heard about it. I think he caught a dose of reality.

Reality does not seem to phase cracker.

Does he realize what will happen if he sells one of those Kimble ground joint adapter tubes into Texas? Tell it to the judge, cracker.

Forget, arguendo, about the CMC liability, the Txas glassware liability etc.

How about the ordinary seller's liability in case their customer is incompetent, unlucky, hapless. Suppose there's a fire. Suppose there's an accident resulting in personal injury. The chemical seller better be well insured. So you end up working x-number months out of the year just to pay the premiums on liability insurance. And the situation is far from perfect. Insurance companies will often do a deal to settle a suit and then drop you or at least jack up your premiums. Happens all the time to doctors.

Nope. It's a bad idea, all downside, no upside. Stay on the demand side, the supply side for little operators sucks.

[Edited on 19-1-2009 by Sauron]

Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
cracker
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Registered: 17-1-2009
Location: Washington State
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Thank You BromicAcid I really appreciate your view on things. No worries though, I’m a big boy and I don’t have thin skin.

I would have to agree with you and say there is still lots of work to be done on the site. Its tough to find good help, often my time is limited for website updating.

Most of our Hazmat shipping can be done through ormd ground mail by using 1 pound individual packaging. However there are several items that we use ground transport for. We contract through Unishippers for these products. They use a variety of carriers depending on the hazmat of the item or items shipped. I will take your advice and disclose this information on the site soon. Thank You

cracker
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Sauron
I want to say thank you, I will freely admit I was not aware of this Texas law. I have been reading about it since you posted. Please if you have any other advice just feel free to speak to me normally. You don’t have to be upset or disrespectful.

Learning is why I read. I want to learn anything I can where ever I can. It’s a good thing I wasn’t being close minded to your comments, I might have missed this.

You have some good points about the laws look on things. I cant argue that. But is that really reason to give up on science? Especially when were doing everything we can to comply?

Again Thank You

cracker
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Location: Washington State
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After some reading it looks like the buyer is the one responsible for the permit. However due to you bringing this to light. We wont be shipping pyrex to Texas

pantone159
International Hazard

Posts: 570
Registered: 27-6-2006
Location: Austin, TX, USA
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 Quote: Originally posted by Sauron Another member stated that this seller is offering explosives. I cannot get their chemical inventory list to work, si I can't determine what explosives he is talking about, but, that is highly suggestive of a sting. As for being exploitative, not every seller wants $5/fluid oz for tech grade HNO3. The first must be the picric acid, which obviously does have plenty of other uses other than simply 'explosive', although I personally wouldn't want to order it (from here or anywhere else.) As far as HNO3, the seller has much better prices on much purer material in larger amounts than 1 oz. BTW - Glass beakers and test tubes (even Pyrex) are unregulated in Texas. (All kinds of 'flasks' are, however, regulated. sigh...) No 'transformers' either for TX. (sigh^2...) cracker Harmless Posts: 17 Registered: 17-1-2009 Location: Washington State Member Is Offline Mood: Pyrotechnic-Scientific  Quote: Originally posted by pantone159 As far as HNO3, the seller has much better prices on much purer material in larger amounts than 1 oz. Very True, Thank you and "good looking out" Pantone159. I have found a list of Texas prohibited materials. It’s kind of tough to be sure what all there including in there. For anyone who is interested in buying please feel free to send an email about the material you seek, even if the website pages are in a private-edit mode. Thank You Underground Gadgets LLC Sauron International Hazard Posts: 5351 Registered: 22-12-2006 Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor Member Is Offline Mood: metastable Picric acid, (trinitrophenol) is a powerful high explosive. It is usually sold with 25% water added. Despite this, it is extremely dangerous because it forms highly unstable, explosive salts with many metals. Picric acid does have many uses in chemistry. It is particularly useful in analytical chemistry for its property of forming derivatives with amines with sharp melting points, useful in qualitative analysis. It is also used in clinical labs as a reagent. For chemical hobbyists its main utility is as an explosive and as source for other explosives, such as ammonium picrate. HOWEVER, selling PA to hobbyists and shipping PA via US post office or common carrier without proper packaging, labelling, declaration etc. may well place you squarely in violation of an entire raft of Federal, state and local laws and regulations. Consult the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives - BEFORE they "consult" you. Selling picric acid is almost certainly a violation of eBay policies and can jeopardize your online business through them. The simplest and safest thing to do is to NOT sell picric acid. You will also find that getting rid of any PA inventory you already have without contraveing such serious laws will mean thousands of dollars, or tens of thousands, in specialist fees to HazMat disposal specialists. This is what I understand happens when universities find an old bottle of picric acid is some retiring professor's lab and that is why most universities now will not store picric acid or purchase it. You see, cracker, what you do not know CAN hurt you. A lot! By the way if you think that the ATFE and the FBI don't know what picric acid is, think again. THIS IS NOT OBSCURE INFORMATION. As for Texas, the Texas laws on glassware are stupic, draconian, arbitrary, capricious, and just plain horseshit. However they are enthusiastically enforced by the Texas Rangers. And importing glassware into Texas is a crime, so the buyer is not the only one liable. IMO, the seller/shipper are equally liable. Want to be a test case? My point is that Texas is not the only jurisdiction with such asinine laws, it is simply the best known on this forum. How many other legal alligators are there out there waiting to snap at you? Cracker, you have made yourself vulnerable. For what? A few bucks? You could lose your business, your home, your income, savings, even your freedom. Why? This is the reason I say you must either be crazy or have some ulterior motive. I will add a third possibility. You were simply not very well informed. Till now. Cover your ass! Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc. BromicAcid International Hazard Posts: 3140 Registered: 13-7-2003 Location: Wisconsin Member Is Offline Mood: Rock n' Roll  Quote: You will also find that getting rid of any PA inventory you already have without contraveing such serious laws will mean thousands of dollars, or tens of thousands, in specialist fees to HazMat disposal specialists. This is what I understand happens when universities find an old bottle of picric acid is some retiring professor's lab and that is why most universities now will not store picric acid or purchase it. Actually, providing you know exactly what it is, picric acid just usually goes out for incineration, might cost a couple hundred dollars to get rid of a kilogram providing it is wetted. Extraneous costs only come in when the identity of the material is in question. Many universities that I have been to in my career maintain a small stock of picric acid, though a lot are trying to shy away from it, at least in larger containers. Most common is the little 50 ml brown plastic bottles, larger older stuff is usually disposed of. Only issue with disposal in those instances is if some idiot put it in a glass bottle with a metal cap, that is where the major issues come into play. Really though I’ve never had much use for the stuff. Shamelessly plugging my attempts at writing fiction: http://www.robvincent.org Sauron International Hazard Posts: 5351 Registered: 22-12-2006 Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor Member Is Offline Mood: metastable Ah, you musn't be very much into amines, then. Or heterocycles containing nitrogen. Or alkaloids. I can think of lots of non-energetics uses for picric acid, but when and if I need it I make my own. Yeah, metal caps, really clever. Solutions of PA as usually found in med-tech labs are just as bad. I'm an old fart and so I regard PA as just PA and no big deal, but I do not reside in the Land of Liability & Legal Excess. Not so friend cracker. Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc. piracetam Hazard to Self Posts: 53 Registered: 20-5-2008 Location: 73X45 Member Is Offline Mood: copacetic shit, I never had problems ordering 3-necked flasks, condensers, and other pyrex glassware while living in San Marcos. yeah, DPS requires you to register your glass with them (permits NAR-120, NAR-121), but it's not illegal to purchase said items (unless the law has changed over the last year) [Edited on 18-1-2009 by piracetam] [Edited on 18-1-2009 by piracetam] Sauron International Hazard Posts: 5351 Registered: 22-12-2006 Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor Member Is Offline Mood: metastable My recollection is that you have to ask Texas DPS for permission to purchase each and every item each and every time and that failing to do so, and just going ahead and buying the regulated glassware, is a violation, as is the importing of such glassware into Texas (without a by your leave from DPS). It's a gotcha. You can get away with it, but come the day...Gotcha! So much for the Land of the Free. Santa Anna might as well be still in charge. Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc. piracetam Hazard to Self Posts: 53 Registered: 20-5-2008 Location: 73X45 Member Is Offline Mood: copacetic yeah you're more likely to get pulled over for changing lanes without signalling (quite unlikely). as much glass as I've purchased (not to mention NA delivered HAZMAT, and NaCNBH3), HPLC pump and detector..never a knock on the door. even saw a cop drive by as I had the garage door open while nitrating some hexamine (I was shitting bricks, no doubt) Sauron International Hazard Posts: 5351 Registered: 22-12-2006 Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor Member Is Offline Mood: metastable As I understand it, the law has two main purposes: 1. To give the cops something to charge drug cooks with if they can't actually find drugs at the time 2. To intimidate the sheeple. The problem is that as far as the cops are concerned, every home lab is a drug lab, and every home lab is a "clandestine" lab - even if it is neither. See all the threads about home lab busts on this forum. "Just because you are paranoid, does not mean they are not all out to get you." - William Rotsler [Edited on 19-1-2009 by Sauron] Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc. piracetam Hazard to Self Posts: 53 Registered: 20-5-2008 Location: 73X45 Member Is Offline Mood: copacetic  Quote: Originally posted by Sauron My recollection is that you have to ask Texas DPS for permission to purchase each and every item each and every time and that failing to do so, and just going ahead and buying the regulated glassware, is a violation, as is the importing of such glassware into Texas (without a by your leave from DPS). there's a head shop in San Marcos called High Times (of all things), which sells Simax erlenmeyer flasks. Bear never got hassled by the local cops for it. play your cards right, know the local/state laws, (and ffs, have a good alibi, like a legitimate business license), and there would be no need to be paranoid. perhaps I was lucky, I had neither intimidating the sheeple is irrelevant, law inforcement is big business (but you already knew that).. buying a permit is like paying another state tax, on top of getting a business permit. always been about money [Edited on 18-1-2009 by piracetam] Sauron International Hazard Posts: 5351 Registered: 22-12-2006 Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor Member Is Offline Mood: metastable I guess you mean Beer. I doubt you would get very far marking your 5 L, 3 necked 24/40 RB flask "Mr Coffee" or your meter long Allihn condenser "Moonshine" - would you? What we are talking about are crusading cops faced with the simple reality that the war on drugs has been a lost cause forever, and who are trying to save face by going after peripheral, mostly irrelevant things that are easier to target, like glassware, "paraphernalia" and so on. The bottom line is that the pot farmers are doing very well, and will even if Dudley Do-Right seizes every roach clip and bong in the universe. But to return to the thread topic, the only sane thing for a SELLER of lab supplies to do is Just Say No to Texas sales. Frankly I think the sanest course would be to sell Mexican silver and turquoise on eBay as there is probably a lot more$ in it, and no collection ofKIeystone Kops trying to take you down.

[Edited on 19-1-2009 by Sauron]

Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
granitestaterecovery
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those concerned with Local, State and federal laws concerning the sale of any item from any company should at least have a clue what there talking about when interjecting into the affairs of somebody who is in the business. Making accusations concerning the imaginative scenarios just makes you sound more of an idiot then if you new what you were talking about.

When a customer fills out an order form for chemicals or equipment That is the time when it is checked against all applicable laws before any transaction takes place.

And the crusade / war on drugs is nothing more then a congressional money pit which dumps obscene amounts of tax dollars into hiring more cops. They could spend a 10th of the money on helping those on drugs but then the war would be won and 33% of Americas workforce ( cops) would be in unemployment lines.....

Granite State Recovery & Recycling

All our scars in life are self inflicted
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus

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Bashing each other's 'credibility' has NOTHING to do with the topic, nor is it constructive.

So CUT THE CRAP!

Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
ordenblitz
National Hazard

Posts: 259
Registered: 18-7-2004
Location: Northwest
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Cracker.. I am referring to two things I happened to see in your list. The Picric acid as mentioned by other members and also the "gun cotton". Nitrocellulose which if over 12.6% nitrogen content, is considered a high explosive and contained in the list on the federal register as such. No matter what anyone tells you, PA has always been on the list as HE. Just because the feds look the other way for small quantity common lab uses of it, does not mean they cannot come and get you if they feel like it.

Another common mistake people make is assuming that just because something is shipped as flammable solid or a lower class does not mean it is considered as such by the ATF. DOT typically classes things based on any items inherent danger during shipment. ATF's job is to determine what danger it poses in the hands of Joe public. That flammable solid label is for shipping purposes only! For instance, if you purchase blasting caps, and I have in the past, from a supplier far away and they need to be shipped, they will arrive as Explosives 1.4S via common carrier. Upon arrival they need to be inventoried and stored as 1.1D.

I guess if you really need the money and your brave.. keep on. But as someone who has seen the working end of the ATF.. I highly recommend you forget selling listed things to unlicensed customers and sleep better at night.
Sauron
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Nit to mention that nitrocellulose autoexidizes and can go bad on you in a hurry. There's a lot of propellant technology involved in keeping that from happening, but not knowing the provenance of cracker's product, its storage history or age, I' say it'a fire waiting to happen.

And as someone who also knows ATF well, I second the excellent advice from the last post.

Post- 9/11/2001 USA is not a place to be selling unlicensed explosives and that is what you are doing, cracker. I doubt you have proper storage, I doubt you have a federal (or state or local) license for explosives, and you certainly don't have approval to sell them on the Internet to Joe Blow.

[Edited on 20-1-2009 by Sauron]

Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
Sauron
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@cracker

What will it take to convince you?

A raid by Federal agents?

Don't let it come to that.

Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
DJF90
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Is picric acid solution still regulated as a high explosive? If not then an alternative could be to sell a solution of PA, rather than as the solid compound itself.
hissingnoise
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Since it *is* a high explosive picric acid can't be sold on the open market in any form---I don't know what cracker was thinking, but he's apparently in the process of removing it from his list. . .
Sauron
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Good. He's doing the right thing.

Nitrocellulose below 12.5% NO2 is sold by the gallon in hardware and DIY stores as lacquer thinner. It is still extremely flammable and volatile.

FWIIW A friend of mine who worked at Tulate University chemistry dept was busted by ATF in early 1970s for making explosives. What explosives? A few grams of EDNA, a few of RDX, a few of PETN, a few of PA as I recall. Totally trivial amounts. But they convicted him anyway. Now tell me, aren't matters worse now then they were in the first Nixon administration when it comes to this sort of thing? Yes/No ?

I was a private detective at the time and the guy was my wireman (surveillance specialist). ATF "visited" my office and threatened to indict me for obstruction of justics if I assisted his defense attorney.

Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
hectic
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Cracker - Briefly looking thru your catalog, I've already noticed a few packaging errors:

-Chloroform is in a clear bottle. I thought that perhaps this was only for displays purposes, I.e. to show that the lisquid is very clear. But as I'm sure you know chloroform must be packaged in an amber bottle.

-Your label for methyl amyl ketone says MEK in big letters right below the chemical name. MEK is methyl ethyl ketone.

-The contents of the carbon tet are unclear. This thread seems to indicate that it is 25% CCl4 and that the product is for air quality testing. But what is the other 75%, a lead salt, TEL, or something altogether different?

This is not a knock against you. In fact, if you're legit, I wish you luck. However these issues I've listed sort of go hand-in-hand with the concerns raised by others in this group - that is, the need for some source and specification data to be included in your listings.
Sauron
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CHCl3, even in amber glass, needs to be stabilized with methanol or else it goves off phosgene, bad bad bad.

If methyl amyl ketone and not MEK, which isomer of the amyl chain? n-amyl? Or?