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JustMe
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[*] posted on 3-12-2003 at 16:08
The Ultimate Energetic Compound


Well, I've always been interested in the limits of chemistry. I was fascinated by xenon chemistry, chemical preparation of fluorine, exotic stuff like that that caused textbooks to be rewritten. But I've been following stories on another extreme compound and where it might lead... to some new allotropes of nitrogen... very highly energetic compounds indeed! Some of it it only theoretical, but here is a link to one of the articles:

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8033/8033notw1.html

I've read some other stuff, and although N8 (N5N3) seems impossible, there is theoretical evidence that N10 (N5N5) would be stable enough to exist at room temperature, having the structure of two five-membered rings connected to each other by one bond.

But last night I read one researcher who has an entirely different goal... N60! A Buckminsterfulverene made entirely of nitrogen! (synthesized from N10). I know that there are now C60 compounds with up to, I think, four or five nitrogens, but imagine the energy of N60!

Anyway, just wanted to throw this extreme (energetic) chemistry idea out there, if you haven't heard of it.
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[*] posted on 3-12-2003 at 18:16


It has already been discuss (in surface) in an other thread.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=81

and maybe there also:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=126

P.S.: I just want to point that there are some info on the board, not that this thread is useless :)




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[*] posted on 3-12-2003 at 18:47


On the note of the extremities of Chemistry, I was thinking about random nitrates the other day, nitrated Fullerenes and the like, but in doing searches for information I came across a dead Yahoo Chemistry board. Someone there was discussing the synthesis of Dinitroacetylene, since he could find almost nothing about it... Here is a synthesis that I propose; it is similar to that of Dihalo-acetylene compounds.

The main precursor would be 1-Chloro-1,2-Dinitroethylene. The reaction apparatus would consist of an Addition funnel, a Boiling Flask, a two-holed stopper, and an apparatus to add Nitrogen Gas to the system. Due to the nature of these reactive variants of Acetylene, it would not be safe to try their synthesis in everyday apparatus. They tend to burn spontaneously in air, you see.

Anyhow, the 1-Chloro-1,2-Dinitroethylene is added to the boiling flask, and the flask is purged of air by the N2 gas. In the addition funnel is 82% NaOH (this is the solution suggested by "War Gases" in the synthesis of C2Br2). The contents are kept cool through the use of a water bath. The addition of the NaOH solution should take 2 hours, after which time air-free water is added. In theory, a layer of C2(NO2)2 should separate at the bottom...

Now, some questions. Could any inert or relatively unreactive gas provide an atmosphere for this reaction? Because CO2 would be much easier to get than N2. Also, an ice bath could be substituted for the water bath, right? Or would that be TOO cold for the reaction to occur? And, instead of 1-Chloro-1,2-Dinitroethylene (which looks to be a strong lachrymator, similar to Chlorpicrin), could 1,1,2-Trinitroethylene react with NaOH to produce C2(NO2)2 and NaNO2?

By the way, the Dihaloacetylene compounds also decompose explosively, if you fancy such exotic compounds ;)

[Edited on 12-4-03 by Samosa]
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[*] posted on 3-12-2003 at 18:47


So sorry, then... I did search for the topic before posting, but apparently didn't use the right keywords. But having viewed the threads, I still think that the link would be of interest... THAT portion is not theoretical, but real! Cool stuff, to me.

BTW: here are the links regarding N60:

http://www.llnl.gov/str/June01/Manaa.html

http://www-cms.llnl.gov/s-t/ex_soccer.html

[Edited on 4-12-2003 by JustMe]
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[*] posted on 3-12-2003 at 18:52


Just Me: I didn't meant to say that you posted something already post, i just wanted to show you that there was maybe some other info that could interest you on other thread



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[*] posted on 3-12-2003 at 18:55


You're right, of course... thanks, then BA.
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[*] posted on 3-12-2003 at 19:34


Well.... let's make some pentanitrogen cation!

(N2F)<sup>+</sup>(AsF6)<sup>-</sup> <sub>(HF)</sub> + HN3 <sub>(HF)</sub> ---@-78 C--> (N5)<sup>+</sup>(AsF6)<sup>-</sup> <sub>(s)</sub> + HF <sub>(l)</sub>

It sounds like more trouble then it's worth, like trying to make perbromic acid, but it would make for some pretty good bragging rights. :D Xenon compounds are pretty interesting explosives, acutally anything with high nitrogen content attracts my intrest even NH4N3 is captivating to me.




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thumbup.gif posted on 5-12-2003 at 08:09


Samosa:
The alkali-metal hydroxide dehydrohalogenation method is said to give "very low yields".
You might want to try calcium oxide (not to be confused with calcium hydroxide), which is a base more powerful that alkali hydroxides. Or calcium ethoxide, prepared by reacting cacium oxide with ethanol. It seems a better option, since it is soluble in some solvents and does not have such a strong crystalline lattice, which might hinder the reaction.
The precursor could also be 1,2-dichloro-1,2-dinitroethane, although it would require double dehydrohalogenation.
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[*] posted on 5-12-2003 at 14:46


Just a thought, Octaazacubane. (N8):)
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cool.gif posted on 31-12-2003 at 08:48


Another idea on preparation of C2(NO2)2:
I think it could be prepared by reacting calcium carbide and nitryl chloride (NO2Cl) to make calcium chloride and the desired compound. Nitryl chloride is made from anhydrous sulfuric acid and chlorosulfuric acid at 0 C. Chlorosulfuric acid is made by reacting dry hydrogen chloride and sulfur trioxide.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2003 at 09:32


Just curious, but how does Sulfuric acid and chlorosulfuric acid make nitryl chloride?

H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> + HSO<sub>3</sub>Cl ---> NO<sub>2</sub>Cl ?

I think you might have a reagent mixed up as you have no nitrogen at all on the reactant side, unless it reacts with air maybe. Did you mean anhydrous nitric acid maybe? If so, that reaction works yielding Nitryl chloride and sulfuric acid.

H<sub></sub>NO<sub>3</sub> + HSO<sub>3</sub>Cl ---> NO<sub>2</sub>Cl + H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>

[Edit] Ahhh, I see from another post you did mean nitric.

[Edited on 12-31-2003 by Mumbles]
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[*] posted on 2-1-2004 at 13:43


Theoretic: I first read about your dinitroacetylene idea on <i>Kewls welcome, have I got recipes for you!</i> I thought you were joking (u were but...), nitrychloride explosively reacts with some organic compounds (I would say not just organic compounds). IF the reaction could take place at all it would be an explosive one, making caclium chloride nitrogen CO<sub>2</sub> and other byproducts from side reactions



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[*] posted on 3-1-2004 at 06:08


Kaboom:
A solution would be to cover calcium carbide with an inert solvent such as carbon tetrachloride (not chloroform) and slowly drop in nitryl chloride. It would dissolve, and slowly reach the carbide, thus the reaction would be moderated. A problem is that dinitroacetylene (let's say DNA from now on) is likely to be soluble in carbon tetrachloride and could react with nitryl chloride...
My concept was that the nitryl ion (NO2+) that results from an ionisation equilibrium in nitryl chloride (I assume) would react with the carbide ion (C2--):
2NO2+ + C2-- => C2(NO2)2.
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 20:00


Currently, the main strategies employed for strengthening explosive compunds is the addition of furoxan groups instead of nitro groups to hydrocarbons, making strained cage compounds, and, making nitro ureas. Currently the most powerful explosives are dinitroazofurozan(DNAF) vod = 9700-10000, octanitrocubane(ONC) vod = 9800-10000, and 2,4,6,8,10,12-hexanitro-2,4,6,8,10,12-hexazatricyclo(7,3,0,0)dodecane-5,11-dione(HHTDD) vod= 9700. Keto RDX is also pretty damn decent with a vod of 9500. The three highest ones have problems DNAF is very sensitive, HHTDD is decomposed easily by water, and they haven't yet made the densest all powerful isomer of ONC. Keto-RDX however is powerful as hell and quite insensitive, unfortunately its not something you could do with over the counter chemicals, however there are a few good companies who sell to individuals. Once I get the needed funds it could be promising synthesis...



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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 05:07


Mendeleev: extract triazone from N-Sure or Blend-Plus or other slow-release nitrogen fertiliser (many contain triazone, but perhaps not all. Check first!), react with anhydrous nitric acid, you get K-RDX...



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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 17:36


Yeah, the exotic chemical is the result of condensing formaldehyde, nitroguanidine, and tert-butylamine. This product, 2-nitrimino-5-tert-butyl-hexahydro-1,3,5 triazine. It is then subjected to chloride assisted nitrolysis, and poof! Mono-keto-RDX. NH4Cl addition improves the yield. And thanks for the fertilizer idea Nick F, I didn't expect to find triazine in fertilizers.

Edit: Scratch that first thing about the exotic chemical, it is tert-buytlamine, I was thinking of another similar nitrourea when I was talking about the condensation and NH4Cl.

[Edited on 14-1-2004 by Mendeleev]
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[*] posted on 31-7-2006 at 12:42


Quote:
Originally posted by Nick F
Mendeleev: extract triazone from N-Sure or Blend-Plus or other slow-release nitrogen fertiliser (many contain triazone, but perhaps not all. Check first!), react with anhydrous nitric acid, you get K-RDX...
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[*] posted on 31-7-2006 at 17:37


Quote:
Originally posted by JustMe
Well, I've always been interested in the limits of chemistry.
I've been following stories on an extreme compound and where
it might lead. imagine the energy of N60!

I tried previously to suggest a way in which something more modest
might be achieved. Since I am not taken seriously it went unnoticed.

see -> http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6027

.
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[*] posted on 31-7-2006 at 23:13


Speaking of allotropic explosives perhaps:

Magnesium Nitride + Deuterium Oxide (heavy water)--->

Mg3N2 + 2H20 ---> NH6 + Mg(OH)?

The idea is this: normally magnesium nitride reacts with normal H2O to form ammonia gas and magnesium hydroxide.

However in our reaction we substitute normal water for heavy water (deuterium oxide). In hopes that we may form the dueterium analog of ammonia with a content of six hydrogen atoms instead of three.

This deuterium ammonia is then nitrated to dueterium ammonium nitrate. Which may be represented by the formula: NH7NO3?

Of course if such an explosive analog of ammonium nitrate could be synthesized, it would be very oxygen deficient. However the excess hydrogen would simply be extra gas in the explosion which could react with atmospheric oxygen to further enhance performance.

Perhaps, the deuterium ammonia analog cannot be formed or nitrated, although it seems like a reasonable idea to me, I thought I'd just throw it out there!:D


I just had another thought! It maybe that the extra hydrogen in the analog would not come out as loose H2, but rather may once again form heavy water upon detonation, meaning an oxygen positive explosive once again!
The result would be an explosive with greater density and with a higher temperature and energy content.

[Edited on 1-8-2006 by Sickman]
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[*] posted on 31-7-2006 at 23:22


Sickman; no. NH7 is never ever ever going to happen. There are not enough valence electrons on the N atom to bind seven protons.

You will just have this reaction:

Mg3N2 + 6D2O -> 3Mg(OD)2 + 2ND3




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[*] posted on 31-7-2006 at 23:39


So Nerro, what is 2ND3 and can it be nitrated?
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 00:14


I seem to remember hearing about another explosive that seemed rather exotic, involving liquid nitrogen and specialy prepared Silicon, don`t quote me, but I think it was something like 7 times the power of TNT.
and apparently discovered purely by accident.




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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 00:43


Is not 2ND3, the deuterium ammonia analog I was hoping for by my reaction of magnesium nitride with heavy water (deuterium oxide)?

Would it not form upon nitration exactly the deuterium ammonium nitrate analog I had in mind?

I think my mistaken formula is what threw Nerro off.

What I was trying to represent by my formula was the extra hydrogen atoms in the deuterium molecules + the hydrogen from the nitrate group representing the total number of hydrogen atoms in the new compound, not that 7 hydrogen atoms would bond to a single nitrogen atom.:o

[Edited on 1-8-2006 by Sickman]
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 00:50


2ND3 means 2 molecules of ammonia, the hydrogen atoms on the ammonia molecules are all replaced by deuterium atoms which are 1 proton and 1 neutron in the core and 1 electron in the shell rather than the usual 1 proton and 1 electron in the shell.

Obviously it can be nitrated, add DNO3 or HNO3 and evaporate the water (preferably D2O ;) ) to yield either ND4NO3 or ND3HNO3 :)




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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 01:58


So is my idea new or has this deuterium analog of ammonium nitrate been prepared before and described in the literature?

Please give references to patents etc.

Is there any information on explosive power and characteristics compared to regular ammonium nitrate, I would assume a greater velocity of detonation and quantity of gas per kilogram of explosive?

I would also assume that the interesting ammonium picrate analog is also possible by reacting picric acid with the deuterium ammonia analog!

In fact I can think of many possible explosive substances possible using deuterium as a substitute in just about every high explosive imaginable that contains the light H2 molecule!

We can increase both density and energy content, however the cost of heavy water (deuterium oxide) is a draw back for sure, although it is very much OTC if we are wanting it!

[Edited on 1-8-2006 by Sickman]
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