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Author: Subject: The Ultimate Energetic Compound
Marvin
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 05:10


Deuterium is just a different isotope, the performance in an explosive will be less by a miniscule amount.
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DeAdFX
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 06:24


Quote:
Originally posted by Sickman
So is my idea new or has this deuterium analog of ammonium nitrate been prepared before and described in the literature?

Please give references to patents etc.

Is there any information on explosive power and characteristics compared to regular ammonium nitrate, I would assume a greater velocity of detonation and quantity of gas per kilogram of explosive?

I would also assume that the interesting ammonium picrate analog is also possible by reacting picric acid with the deuterium ammonia analog!

In fact I can think of many possible explosive substances possible using deuterium as a substitute in just about every high explosive imaginable that contains the light H2 molecule!

We can increase both density and energy content, however the cost of heavy water (deuterium oxide) is a draw back for sure, although it is very much OTC if we are wanting it!

[Edited on 1-8-2006 by Sickman]


I recall reading an article talking about radioactive ammonium nitrate as a way to detect people who use it for illegimate purposes...
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Sickman
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 10:05


Deadfx, I wasn't exactly thinking radioactive:P:P:P:P:P

Tritium ammonium nitrate dirty bomb:D:D:D:o:o:o:mad::mad:
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YT2095
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 10:43


here we go, this is an item regarding the post I made previously: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1103

I knew I wasn`t dreaming :)




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neutrino
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 12:33


Ah yes, LOX-porus silicon explosives. These were discussed here and at roguesci.org a few years back.



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hinz
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 15:26


Ammoium dinitramide looks interesting.

http://enermat.org.ru/ammomium.html (found it while looking for pka of tetranitrocubane)

Wonder if it's further nitratabe to trinitramide to N(NO2)3 would be quite interessting, but I think it's impossible due steristic issues and electronic issues, central N is quite possitive charged, poor nucleophile on NO2+, but NI3 is also existent and if the oxygen atoms of each NO2 are standing straight (not in the same plane as the central N atom), the NO2 wouldn't need to much place.

Does anyone know if nitromethane is further nitratable to tetranitromethane since it's a weak acid, thus a potentially weak nucleophile on NO2+ and once its nitrated to dinitromethane the molecule will be nitrated completly to TeNM due it's acidity. Since it works also with a chlorination agent forming chloropicrin, but under basic conditions which eliminate a proton and producing a higher concentration of the nucleophile, I think the whole reaction needs some (long?) time. I've ordered 5l of CH3NO2 and these 5l need an application together with my fuming nitric acid. And TeNM balanced on CO/H2O/Al2O3 in a mix with Al and low melting parafine (to prevent the separation of the Al dust/ acting as a binder) would be quite interesting like a flash with VoD of 8km/s
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Nick F
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 17:28


Please, do some reading. TeNM is often discussed.
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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 1-8-2006 at 17:48


Someone asked on this thread about octaazocubane, N8, i.e. cubane in which all the CHs are replaced by Ns. Even more energetic wou;ld be Octaazidocubane, C8(N3)8, in which all the Hs in cubane are replaced by azide groups, and in which the strained carbon rings add to the energy available. This compound has actually been made, and papers about it and other azidocubanes have appeared as attachments in this part of sciencemadness.org.
Also dodecaazidododecahedrane, C12(N3)12, i.e, dodecahedrane, C12H12, in which the Hs have been replaced woth azido groups. I doubt that this has been made, though. Other possibilities include hexadecaazidobuckminsterfullerene, in which the C60 is saturated by having azido groups added, C60(N3)60.
More simply, also with a highly strained carbon ring adding to the energy, one could have triazidocyclopropane, C3(N3)3, and the corresponding cyclobutane derivative, C4(N3)4. I am not sure whether they have been prepared.
Because such azido derivatives are likely to be dangerously explosive, the nitro derivatives would be safer to handle.

[Edited on 2-8-2006 by JohnWW]
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franklyn
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[*] posted on 5-8-2006 at 10:33


Quote:
Originally posted by YT2095
here we go, this is an item regarding the post I made previously: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1103

I knew I wasn`t dreaming :)

Well, rub your eyes some more _
I'm astonished that a semi reputable magazine as New Scientist
would publish something that is so blatantly stupid through and through.
I quote "The substance - an exotic form of silicon - releases seven times
as much energy as TNT, and explodes a million times faster."
Given that the reaction time is proportional to the velocity of detonation,
and for T.N.T. this is 7.8 kilometers per second, a million fold increase is
7 million plus kilometers per second. The speed of light is 300,000. Duh
Even if this is just a wave involving no mass transport, no information,
detonation wave, or anything else can exceed 300,000.

As if that wasn't enough let me also run this by you.
The energy product of T.N.T. is 930 Kilogram Calories per Kilogram of T.N.T.
The energy product of Silicon Dioxide formed from its elements Silicon and
Oxygen, is some 3800 Kilogram Calories per Kilogram, or just 4 times as much, not 7 times.

[Edited on 5-8-2006 by franklyn]
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not_important
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[*] posted on 5-8-2006 at 17:03


Well, New Scientist has been going downhill, although they've managed to avoid Page 3 girls so far.Looks like he's sold someone on it as an explosive

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18024243.300.html


He has continued messing about with porous Si and O2, although not explosively

http://www2.kobe-u.ac.jp/~fujii1/Journal/68_2004_APL_Kovalev...

But he did give a talk that included the porous silicon explosive, last year

http://matsci.iw.uni-halle.de/nanosec/

(the speaker after him, Pacholski, has been doing some interesting work)

Here's a bit more recent information

http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2002/022002/Chip_provides_more...
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[*] posted on 29-8-2006 at 18:18


I've heard that inhert gas compounds such as XeO3 are extremly poverfull explosives, because of extremly high energy release on Xe-O bond breakage. I've also heard that XeO3 has unbeliveable brisance as well. I wonder how powerfull will be explosive mixture of XeO3 + active metall (Al for example), it will probably detonate on contact of reagents.

Germans in WW2 tried to make a superbombs mixing liquid C2H2 with liquid ozone. All planes with such kind of bombs were exploded on takeoff, so the stuff was forgotten. I think this mix will be far more powerfull that any of imaginable nitro compounds. Mixture of liquid (CN)2 with liquid ozone will be even more powerfull, at normal conditions this mixture burns with temperature of 10000K - that is the highest temperature achiveable in chemical combustion.

The third candidate is a ethyl perchlorate, that was considered as most powerfull explosive compound known for almost century (until first inhert gas compounds vere found). Glycerin triperchlorate is pretty much the same but more powerfull and unstable in pure state.


[Edited on 30-8-2006 by Engager]
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[*] posted on 29-8-2006 at 20:37


The problem with binary or sprengel mixtures is that at least one component if
not both need to be liquid in order to get an intimate molecular mix, otherwise
you have just a low velocity pyrotechnic. A liquid phase mix of Acetylene and
Cyanogen is of interest because the products of detonation are all combustable
in air, hence there is an additional thermobaric effect. But for a handful of
exceptions ( Astrolite, PLX, Kinepak ) such materials are not used because
almost all are dangerously shock sensitive, thus they will detonate upon impact
precluding deep penetration of a target and timed initiation by a fuze.

I have thought that the binary gas artillery shell design could be applied to
binary or sprengel type explosives. The mixing is done during flight thus there
is no risk from recoil and setback upon firing. Such a munition would be safer
than anything in use now.

[Edited on 30-8-2006 by franklyn]
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not_important
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[*] posted on 29-8-2006 at 20:57


And the problem with liquid O3 is that it tends to go off when a door slams, or a butterfly flaps its wings, or it feels like it. Adding hydrocarbons to liquid ozone is a Bad Idea.

XeO3 around and above its melting point is similarly unstable, I believe.
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franklyn
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[*] posted on 1-9-2006 at 20:02


Reasons militating against introduction of more energetic compounds
to subplant those in current use are cost, necessarily caused by the
complexity of their manufacture. http://www.llnl.gov/str/Pagoria.html
consider whats involved just to obtain the precurser for octanitrocubane
http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/dhtml/default.html

It seems conterintuitive that almost polymeric forms of nitrogen have
a more realistic prospect of implementation
http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Dec01/PR0106.html

I have wondered if the Oxygenyl ( O2 +) cation radical could be coupled
with the Superoxide ( O2 -) anion radical into a stable molecule by the
double replacement of their salts O2SbF6 and KO2
Without quenching this reaction by itself would be quite energetic.
following this idea _
NitroniumTetrahydroAluminate NO2AlH4 or the Borate NO2BH4
or
TetraFluoroammoniumTetrahydroBorate NF4BH4 or the Aluminate NF4AlH4
would be interesting if it could be formed at all.

.
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Mr. Wizard
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[*] posted on 1-9-2006 at 23:27


Doesn't the formation of diatomic H2 from two monatomic H atoms release more energy than any other combination? If the monatomic atoms could be held apart with say a magnetic or electric field or magic or whatever, then it would make a great fuel or energy storage device. What are the spin directions of the atoms of H2? My physics is a little weak in that area.
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artem
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[*] posted on 17-9-2006 at 08:19


Quote:
Originally posted by Mendeleev
Yeah, the exotic chemical is the result of condensing formaldehyde, nitroguanidine, and tert-butylamine. This product, 2-nitrimino-5-tert-butyl-hexahydro-1,3,5 triazine. It is then subjected to chloride assisted nitrolysis, and poof! Mono-keto-RDX...
[Edited on 14-1-2004 by Mendeleev]

Here is the article about keto-RDX.

Attachment: PEP1994-5-232.djvu (117kB)
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nitro-genes
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[*] posted on 17-9-2006 at 09:57


This article also mentions an acid hydrolisis route from hexamin, followed by condensation with dinitrourea. Not sure if this has been mentioned before, though I'm pretty sure I have seen dinitrourea and keto-RDX been discussed on roguescience somewhere, without results for the synthesis of either of them IIRC...

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by nitro-genes]

Attachment: Synthesis, characterization and thermal studies of keto-RDX or k-6.pdf (113kB)
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[*] posted on 17-9-2006 at 21:54


The triazone fertiliser mentioned in the PEP article as the most convenient precursor is patented US4778510. Note the same "triazone corporation" responsible for fertiliser used in PEP article, and the patent. Gives correct pH, temp, time ratio of ammonia:formaldehyde:urea to form triazone urea mixture with minimal hexamine. Bit annoying to read though.

Also I'll attach an article, give synthesis of keto-RDX via potassium sulphamate:urea:formaldehyde. Only 18% yield though.

Attachment: use of potassium sulfamate in the synthesis of heterocyclic nitramines.pdf (271kB)
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The_Davster
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[*] posted on 17-9-2006 at 22:21


Is anyone else downright aroused by the product formed when aminotetrazole is used instead of urea?:o Product V. Too bad chromatography is needed for purification.
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[*] posted on 18-9-2006 at 01:52


Personally, I prefer the nitrated condensation product with DAF. They mention a melting point of 151 C, so depending on decomposition temp it might be a candidate for a castable material. The yield also seems quite good.
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[*] posted on 20-9-2006 at 06:46


I wonder if the triazone precursor for the manufacture of keto-RDX could be made with higher purity using formic acid. Could a 3:2:1 molar ratio of ammonia/formaldehyde/formic acid yield 1,3,5 triazone upon evoparation to dryness and/or heating slightly?

formic acid + ammonia yields ammonium formate:

HCOOH + NH3 → NH4+HCOO-

Which upon heating forms formamide according to:

NH4+HCOO- → HCONH2 + H2O

Since the first step is the acid/base reation of the ammonia with formic acid, very little hexamin should be expected in the final product...

[Edited on 20-9-2006 by nitro-genes]
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