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BOBardment
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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 18:29
Ammonia plus nitric acid?


(New to the forum, sorry if this is in the wrong section...)
I am currently trying to make ammonium nitrate because I can't find a good supplier for it :(
I think this would be the easiest way to do it, but I only found one procedure about it so far. And it looked horrifyingly stupid.
The guy filled his pot with nitric acid, tested the PH with a litmus strip, and added ammonia until it changed color. He then boiled off the liquid with his pot... Something tells me this is not an accurate way of doing it and I'm going to be wasting material as well as blowing my face off.
His calculations later also seemed wrong... So I decided to calculate this stuff on my own.

I would like to make it as pure as possible. Yes, I want it to combust. No, I do not hate the government.

So here is my calculation that might be wrong, I forgot why but I think I did it wrong
From my understanding(Which is not much) the equation would look like this:
NH4OH + HNO3 = NH4(NO3) + H2O
Which works out pretty nicely
Molar mass for NH4OH is 35.04g/mol and for HNO3 it's 63.01g/mol
That means for every 100g of nitric acid... 55.61g of ammonia
I should be able to combine these two and boil the water out as slowly as possible... Then I would have crystal ammonium nitrate? There should be no waste to filter if what I use is pure, I also get free distilled water out of this. (Lol)]
Edit: Now I remember why I thought I was wrong, because ammonia in it's pure form is a gas, but I'm planning on using liquid ammonia(Ammonia solution, ammonia water, whatever you call it) But somehow I used the chemical composition of liquid ammonia without knowing that's what I need... So ultimately the equation is correct. :cool:
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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 18:56


Quote: Originally posted by BOBardment  

I think this would be the easiest way to do it, but I only found one procedure about it so far. And it looked horrifyingly stupid.
The guy filled his pot with nitric acid, tested the PH with a litmus strip, and added ammonia until it changed color. He then boiled off the liquid with his pot... Something tells me this is not an accurate way of doing it and I'm going to be wasting material as well as blowing my face off.
His calculations later also seemed wrong...


Actually this is a pretty good way to do it, and it is pretty impossible to blow anything up this way. Ammonium nitrate is not easy to detonate it, you probably couldn't detonate it if you tried (based on your post).

So next to no worry of you blowing anything up with your AN ;)

Using this method you don't need to calculate, any excess ammonia will leave as vapor.

This is the same method that you propose, so the only thing that would make it more wasteful would be a sloppy technique.


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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 19:03


It's ok to hate your gov, I hate mine too:P
But the dH2O you get will be impure, contaminated with either NH3 or HNO3 depending on which is excess.
And did you determine the NH3 and HNO3 concentration? NH3 and NH4OH require different steps in calculation.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 19:16


Quote: Originally posted by fusso  

And did you determine the NH3 and HNO3 concentration? NH3 and NH4OH require different steps in calculation.


More specifically, NH4OH is never used in a calculation.

It is ammonia, NH3, dry or in water. So you might calculate the concentration of NH3 in your aqueous ammonia, but you would never do it by adding a mol of water to each NH3.

Fusso is right about any distilled water being impure from this reaction, too.
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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 19:54


just bubble the ammonia through the nitric, less water to deal with.
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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 20:10


Quote: Originally posted by fusso  
It's ok to hate your gov, I hate mine too:P
But the dH2O you get will be impure, contaminated with either NH3 or HNO3 depending on which is excess.
And did you determine the NH3 and HNO3 concentration? NH3 and NH4OH require different steps in calculation.

I used NH4OH for my calculation, that's what I'm planning on getting. I have almost no equipment so working with ammonia gas is not something I'm planning right now
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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 21:08


You need to use NH3 in the calculations as happyfooddance said but you can use NH3(aq) in the experiment.



Useful sites:
Balance Chemical Equation: http://www.webqc.org/balance.php
Molecular mass and elemental composition calculator: https://www.webqc.org/mmcalc.php
Solubility table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
Azeotrope table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope_tablesIt's not crime if noone finds out - Nyaruko
List of materials made by ScienceMadness users: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 21:34


Quote: Originally posted by fusso  
You need to use NH3 in the calculations as happyfooddance said but you can use NH3(aq) in the experiment.

Even then it would just be
NH3+HNO3 = NH4NO4
Right? Still one mol to mol... Just different mass, should I use this mass?
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[*] posted on 26-12-2018 at 21:54


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
just bubble the ammonia through the nitric, less water to deal with.


I would imagine this would generate a lot of heat and probably end badly depending on how well prepared you are for the ensuing events.
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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 01:56


It is strange you can get nitric acid but not ammonium nitrate. Most nitric acid is made from nitrate salts. You can also make ammonium nitrate from potassium/sodium nitrate, sodium bisulfate, and ammonia. Nerd Rage made a video on it. You can get all those things on ebay.

If you are making explosives, nitric acid is far more useful than ammonium nitrate. You can make PETN, RDX, and fulminates with very concentrated nitric acid.




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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 02:57


Quote: Originally posted by BOBardment  
Quote: Originally posted by fusso  
You need to use NH3 in the calculations as happyfooddance said but you can use NH3(aq) in the experiment.

Even then it would just be
NH3+HNO3 = NH4NO4
Right? Still one mol to mol... Just different mass, should I use this mass?


ammonia solutions are made by bubbling ammonia gas in water, and the percentage of ammonia in solution is expressed in m/m% ( MASS of NH3 in 100g of solution ), so yeah you must use NH3, calculate the mass of the total NH3 you need, and then you must convert that numer to the mass of solution you need depending on the concentration you have





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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 05:14


No need to titrate the nitric acid or ammonia, just use a suitable pH indicator.

Ammonia is a weak base, nitric acid is a fairly strong acid,
so ammonium nitrate solution can be expected to be slightly acidic,
according to https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/ammonium_nitrate#s...
a 0.1M solution has a pH of 5.43,
methyl red could be used, but I'd use pH papers
(my two cheap pH meters are unreliable)
other concentrations will of course produce different pH levels,
but pH should be between 5 and 6 probably.
The reaction is in effect a titration.

[Edited on 27-12-2018 by Sulaiman]




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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 07:03


Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
just bubble the ammonia through the nitric, less water to deal with.


I would imagine this would generate a lot of heat and probably end badly depending on how well prepared you are for the ensuing events.


No more so then any other reaction, simply apply cooling and or mixing as needed, just modulate gas flow to match thermal dissipation.
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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 08:22


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
just bubble the ammonia through the nitric, less water to deal with.


I would imagine this would generate a lot of heat and probably end badly depending on how well prepared you are for the ensuing events.


No more so then any other reaction, simply apply cooling and or mixing as needed, just modulate gas flow to match thermal dissipation.


No more than any other reaction?

That is not a very sensible statement, as reactions release widely variable amounts of energy.

I know you've set up an ammonia generator, but I can tell by the ease with which you describe this process that you have never tried to neutralize a substantial amount of acid with dry ammonia! "simply apply cooling and or mixing as needed, just modulate gas flow to match thermal dissipation" doesn't seem like good advice for the new member who is not even sure if he's posting in the right forum.
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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 08:25


Plus suck-back problems due to the high solubility of ammonia gas.



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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 09:09


Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  
It is strange you can get nitric acid but not ammonium nitrate. Most nitric acid is made from nitrate salts. You can also make ammonium nitrate from potassium/sodium nitrate, sodium bisulfate, and ammonia. Nerd Rage made a video on it. You can get all those things on ebay.

If you are making explosives, nitric acid is far more useful than ammonium nitrate. You can make PETN, RDX, and fulminates with very concentrated nitric acid.

Yeah... I kind of realized that...
Maybe I should just look for a better supplier instead of reversing it...
I'm having a really hard time finding suppliers that would ship to Canada, the ones that do have bad ratings :(
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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 14:22


Nerd Rage seems to have taken his ammonium nitrate video down (Thanks to Youtube). The reaction was between sodium hydrogen sulfate and potassium nitrate, followed by neutralization with ammonia solution.



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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 17:56


Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
just bubble the ammonia through the nitric, less water to deal with.


I would imagine this would generate a lot of heat and probably end badly depending on how well prepared you are for the ensuing events.


No more so then any other reaction, simply apply cooling and or mixing as needed, just modulate gas flow to match thermal dissipation.


No more than any other reaction?

That is not a very sensible statement, as reactions release widely variable amounts of energy.

I know you've set up an ammonia generator, but I can tell by the ease with which you describe this process that you have never tried to neutralize a substantial amount of acid with dry ammonia! "simply apply cooling and or mixing as needed, just modulate gas flow to match thermal dissipation" doesn't seem like good advice for the new member who is not even sure if he's posting in the right forum.


you must not understand energy flow to well. Given I started out in the field of energy transport (Thermal and electrical)

It really is that simple., it can be metric tons, or micro liters it is a simple manner of gas in energy out and balancing the two.

I have spend the last 3 days making my dirty ammonia sulphate into clean sulfate by bubbling it through sulfuric acid solution with ammonium sulphate from when I made nitric acid last.

Sorry but you really don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand such a basic principle.

[Edited on 28-12-2018 by XeonTheMGPony]
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[*] posted on 27-12-2018 at 20:51


Battery acid 6QT, 16lb for 51.85 bucks. :)
Finally, a supplier that ships to Canada, and Reagent grade too. :D
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[*] posted on 28-12-2018 at 08:35


Quote: Originally posted by BOBardment  
Battery acid 6QT, 16lb for 51.85 bucks. :)
Finally, a supplier that ships to Canada, and Reagent grade too. :D


What part of Canada? Canada here as well
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[*] posted on 28-12-2018 at 12:56


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  

What part of Canada? Canada here as well

BC, that one place with nothing speical or fun.
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[*] posted on 28-12-2018 at 13:02


Quote: Originally posted by BOBardment  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  

What part of Canada? Canada here as well

BC, that one place with nothing speical or fun.


well obscenely overpriced every thing! Used to be there. check wallmart cold packs
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[*] posted on 1-1-2019 at 15:23


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  

well obscenely overpriced every thing! Used to be there. check wallmart cold packs

Just did, they switched to liquid cold packs. Now I have to spend hours trying to find another source.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2019 at 16:18


Crappy here in sask still can ammonium nitrate.

I treat it with ammonia water then filter off the calcium hydroxide, then dry it for making azeotropic Nitric, then I take the ammonium sulfate acid mix and neutralize it with ammonia gas to make ammonium sulfate for future use.

next best thought is order it online, or falling leaf stump remover is pure kn03

I buy it up during fall when it is on sale each container is 1 pound and I got 7 so far!

takes 5 to make 1l concentrated nitric acid
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[*] posted on 2-1-2019 at 08:23


Quote: Originally posted by BOBardment  
Battery acid 6QT, 16lb for 51.85 bucks. :)
Finally, a supplier that ships to Canada, and Reagent grade too. :D

Battery acid is sulfuric acid, not nitric.


Also regarding ammonia solutions: There will be some debate about this, but NH4OH does not really exist in any meaningful concentration (and it's impossible to isolate). Ammonia gas dissolved in water will create that compound in tiny amounts, but the vast majority will remain NH3(aq). There's only a couple percent of the gas that actually reacts into ammonium and hydroxide ions. Thus you always want to calculate based on ammonia.
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