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Alchemist
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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 05:21
Dreams


Hello all,

O.K., this maybe interesting! What medicines cause strange, weird, or horrifying dreams at night? Also what is it chemically in the medicines that cause the dreaming? Some people say Niqual,
certain cough medicines, and many other cold and flu med's. work.
I for one have really cool dreams, but I have a girl friend that has nightmares. Could we synthesis the chemicals that just cause the dreaming. I am sure there are many others also that I did not mention. Well what do you say?

The Alchemist.....
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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 11:34


I imagine many won't respond to this post, as they feel they are above it. But me, I just LOVE to hear myself talk (just look at today's posts, I'm a big loud mouth!)

In all earnestness, perhaps a modest dose of melatonin? It's OTC, and probably relatively benign. Careful anything over 50mg though (which is a huge dose anyway), especially if you are on anything which could cause serotonin syndrome. You might also try some L-tryptophan supplementation, and also some 5-HTP (again, be careful as it's direct precursor to serotonin). I think I understand the overall intent of your post, perhaps, and this is my best answer. The 5-HTP and melatonin (in modest amounts) might really be what you are after. Best of luck!
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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 12:07


Opioids and benzodiazepines have been known to cause very vivid dreams although i dont know the mechanism for it.
There is a substance in lavender oil that I have yet to identify that also causes the most vivid dreams one has ever had. All the way to the point where it has you questioning if you are really awake for atlest the first 30 minutes after awakening.

The ability to synthesis a chemical that JUST causes dreams sounds pretty much impossible considering dreams and nightmares are the same exact thing. Nightmares apear more vivid because in order to remeber a dream on has to awake in the middle of the dream and that happens more commonly in nightmares. For you girlfreind to get rid of the nightmares she should see a psychiatrist to get to the root of why she is having these nightmares before resorting to any kind of chemical means.





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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 12:26


Snip...
Quote:
Originally posted by Sedit
There is a substance in lavender oil that I have yet to identify that also causes the most vivid dreams one has ever had. All the way to the point where it has you questioning if you are really awake for atlest the first 30 minutes after awakening.

...Snip

Sedit,

Intriguing! So is it as simple as pouring a shot of bien-être? Seriously though, lavender oil?! Yes, opioids can be related to the most (simultaneously) bizarre, yet rewarding dreams. Because of such dreams, I now realize there are countless emotions (almost like flavors) for which there are no words to describe.
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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 13:40


Some 1-phenylpiperazines can have an influence on dreams. For example 1-(2-methoxyphenyl)-piperazine,tested for antihypertensive properties,caused frightening dreams in hypertensive patients.In doses of about 400mg per day,the effects on the brain were more interesting than its effects on bloodpressure.

After single intravenous doses,the patients became drowsy or somnolent for about 12 hours.The same result occured early after oral administration,but in addition,after 2 or 3 weeks of medication,bad dreams occured regularly in persons who had hitherto been unaware of dreaming at all.

In some patients,the dreams were so frightening that the patient became very fearful of going to sleep.

Also, terpenoids from calea zacatechichi seem to possess a lucid dreaming effect.


[Edited on 11-3-2009 by Ebao-lu]
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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 13:57


I have read somewhere that doses of 50 mg of vitamin B6, presumably just before going to sleep, cause vivid dreams. Has anyone tried it?
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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 15:04


Yep, I believe it is true to some extent. I used take melatonin every night before going to bed, I ran out and bought a new brand and took a few pills just before taking a nap. I had some unusually vivid dreams, so unusual I decided to take a closer look at the bottle of melatonin I bought; turns out, it was 3mg of melatonin with some B6 (definitely not 50 mg though). I noticed I had higher frequencies of having vivid dreams while taking the B6 melatonin, but It was not a sure bet thing, just more common.

That being said, vivid dreams are not always a good thing, I had a lot of frightening dreams during that time (very unusual for me).

Nyquil and diphenhydramine don't give me any difference in dreams; nyquil just knocks me out, diphenhydramine does pretty much nothing at a 25mg dose (I built too much of a tolerance to it from using it as a sleeping pill); at much larger doeses it makes my legs feel funny and as I am going to sleep I hear the voices of people I know well whispering to me, although for some reason at the time It does not seem weird or frightening...it just seems normal...

If you want a sure fire way to have vivid dreams, consider near-anaesthetic doses of any safe inhalation anaesthetic. Most are dissociative at these doses, and the mind has a way of warping all thoughts, ideas and stimuli into pseudo-truths, to make situations very similar to conscious dreams. Also like dreams, it is difficult to remember exactly what occurred though, it is always known that it did in fact occur.

If you are planning to make a habit out of it give ether a try. If you just want to try it once and have a guaranteed profound experience, use chloroform (note that chloroform is more toxic than ether and most other anesthetics). Nitrous oxide simply does not have the potency to safely take you to this state. If you are overweight don't even think about doing this, also avoid catecholamines and any other stimulants, anti-emetics may be necessary to avoid post experience nausea (girls seem MUCH more sensitive to this).

Of course, I don't have any first hand experience with any of this...so take everything with a grain of salt :)

[Edited on 3-11-2009 by smuv]




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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 15:54


Beryllium poisoning. Thallium poisoning.

Both elements are acutely toxic.
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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 16:12


Quote:

Sedit,
Intriguing! So is it as simple as pouring a shot of bien-être? Seriously though, lavender oil?! Yes, opioids can be related to the most (simultaneously) bizarre, yet rewarding dreams. Because of such dreams, I now realize there are countless emotions (almost like flavors) for which there are no words to describe.


Yes more vivid then any substance I have ever seen. A shot of lavender, hell no, a few drops on the tounge and rub some under the nose about 20- 30 minutes before rest will trigger them. It does not happen every time but neither does remebering your dreams either. When you do remeber them or have a night where its effective you will be amazed at how something that isnt real fells so real. Iv had many times where the dreams felt like days and I was waking up from one dream into another over and over, truely mind blowing.

Also the oil left out in air to auto oxidise seems more effective and some species are better then others but I havent identified any main one.
It is good to see this threed because im currently in the research phase of finding the componate in lavender so this will help me see which of the various constitutes may be responsible.

@smuv

Melatonin give me the type of dream that where discussed where on is afraid of sleep. Its hard when you know the lucid horrors that await you to drift off to sleep. As much as i found it useful as a sleep aid its use just could not be continued due to the nightmares it caused.


Iv always been fasinated with dreams because the fact that people have so many a night and remeber so few. If someone could cause them to not be forgoten then it would form a useful platform to perform complex mental work in a very short relative amount of time.

[Edited on 11-3-2009 by Sedit]





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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 16:47


Chemicals like Atropine, Scopolamine, BZ, and a few other muscarinic actylcholine antagonists would do the trick I bet. They are very dangerous though.



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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 17:24


Yeah...Atropine premedication before surgery was standard operating procedure for decades.



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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 17:26


Really? I didn't know that. Seems like it would do more bad then good.



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[*] posted on 11-3-2009 at 17:49


This covers it all. Atropine and scopalamine were(are???) also given pre-operatively to reduce the excessive salivation that occurred upon induction with some agents (ether especially). The dose of atropine given is very small...something like .2mg IIRC.



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[*] posted on 12-3-2009 at 04:21


Quote:
Originally posted by Alchemist
Hello all,

O.K., this maybe interesting! What medicines cause strange, weird, or horrifying dreams at night? Also what is it chemically in the medicines that cause the dreaming?

I did not read the replies since I'm a bit in a hurry, so maybe this was already said.
The strongest oneirogenics (drugs that intensify the dreaming during sleep) are various nicotine agonist. In principle even nicotine can be oneirogenic if aplied in such a way as to have delayed release (transdermaly, etc.), however due to its short duration it will not work by simply smoking strong tobacco or any of the usual means of application (of course, it also can not work if you are nicotine addicted). However, long lasting nicotine agonists, particularly partial agonists, are incredibly strong oneirogenics. One such is cytisine. If taken awake it has little effect on the CNS, even larger doses give more of periferal toxicity symptoms than psychoactivity. Yet if taken before sleep, even very small amounts have a dramatic effect on the dreaming. It intensifies the dreaming almost to be indistinguishable from reality. Not coincidently do some archeologists claim that certain seeds that contain this alkaloid (Sophora secundiflora) are the oldest known drug used by the humans of which use is archaeologicaly proven (if I remember correctly, evidence old 9000 years was found in North America). The use of these seeds survived till several decades ago among the plain indians. Unfortunately, from the indians accounts the researchers thought these seeds are hallucinogenic which they are not. When the indians said these seeds cause vivid dreams, they meant this literally so (during sleep), not in the sense that they cause hallucinations (visions during being awake).




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[*] posted on 12-3-2009 at 05:19


...which apparently also explains why among varenicline's listed side effects is "change in dreaming patterns". Thanks, Nicodem, I never knew about oneirogens until now. :)

sparky (~_~)




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[*] posted on 12-3-2009 at 05:42
Dreams


Hello Again,

Well I should have looked more on the internet first! I just found this;

Medications contributing to vivid dreams

Singulair (38) Toprol-XL (21) Zoloft (19) Lisinopril (14) Levaquin (12) Effexor (9) Lamictal (8) Wellbutrin (8) Paxil (8) Femcon FE (6) Yasmin (5) Zocor (5) Sulfamethoxazole (5) Lipitor (3) Biaxin (3) Metoprolol Tartrate (3) Remeron (3) Flomax (3) Effexor XR (2) NuvaRing (2) Levoxyl (2) Levaquin Leva-Pak (1) Omeprazole (1) Ambien (1) Ovcon (1) Topamax (1) PredniSONE (1) Chantix (1) Paroxetine Hydrochloride (1) Claritin (1) Xanax (1) Avelox (1) Celexa (1) Biaxin XL-Pak (1) Azithromycin 5 Day Dose Pack (1) Health Aid Melatonin (1) Zyrtec (1) Seroquel (1) Januvia (1) Omnicef (1) Doxycycline Hyclate (1) Fentanyl


Yet this is all still (I think) a VERY interesting topic.

More later, the Alchemist.....

[Edited on 12-3-2009 by Alchemist]
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[*] posted on 12-3-2009 at 05:51
More


Hello once again,

Here are some herbs that cause vivid dreams (some have already been talked about)!

Herbs and Supplements

Many herbs influence dreaming, especially those with psychotropic effects like kava kava, St. John's wort, valerian, hops and passionflower. The Ayurvedic herb Ashwagandha is also well-known for creating surreal dreams. Sometimes herbs like mugwort (Artemisia vulgaris) and African dream root (Silene capensis) are taken specifically for their effects on dreams and dream recall.

Melatonin can produce vivid dreams, but some people have also reported of unusually "normal" dreams that follow everyday logic instead of the surreal patterns of dreams. L-tryptophan and 5-HTP, being precursors to serotonin, may affect dreams similar to serotonergic antidepressants.

Vitamin B6 is well-known for creating detailed, vivid dreams and boosting dream recall. Vitamins B5 and B12 may have similar effects to a lesser degree. Choline and other supplements that increase brain levels of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine can render dreams unusually vivid and make them easier to remember.

Caffeine has been used to induce lucid dreaming, because it makes one sleep lighter. There is, obviously, the possible side effect of taking too much and not being able to sleep at all.

Later the Alchemist.....
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[*] posted on 12-3-2009 at 09:50


Here is something I requested over in the refrence forum so ill post it here for every one to see that dont have access.It is about the effects of dopamine on the sleeping mind from what I can understand.

I wish I could discuss it with you some more but I have a bit of a reading disorder due to the fact that I havent slept in three days due to flu induced sleep apnea. Kind of ironic I suppose that I cant comment on the dream threed because I haven't slept. On a lighter note in the 15 minute or so spurts I have been able to sleep before awaking and gasping for air I have had some very vivid dreams and spent a large chunck of time attempting to order a angus stake at Mc Donalds....Oy vay im losing it over here folks.:(

Attachment: dreams.pdf (93kB)
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[*] posted on 12-3-2009 at 14:44


Quote:
Originally posted by Alchemist
Singulair (38) Toprol-XL (21) Zoloft (19) Lisinopril (14) Levaquin (12) Effexor (9) Lamictal (8) Wellbutrin (8) Paxil (8) Femcon FE (6) Yasmin (5) Zocor (5) Sulfamethoxazole (5) Lipitor (3) Biaxin (3) Metoprolol Tartrate (3) Remeron (3) Flomax (3) Effexor XR (2) NuvaRing (2) Levoxyl (2) Levaquin Leva-Pak (1) Omeprazole (1) Ambien (1) Ovcon (1) Topamax (1) PredniSONE (1) Chantix (1) Paroxetine Hydrochloride (1) Claritin (1) Xanax (1) Avelox (1) Celexa (1) Biaxin XL-Pak (1) Azithromycin 5 Day Dose Pack (1) Health Aid Melatonin (1) Zyrtec (1) Seroquel (1) Januvia (1) Omnicef (1) Doxycycline Hyclate (1) Fentanyl

A lot of the studies these warnings are based don't do a very good job of distinguishing causality from correlation. If a few patients have a symptom, even if about as many patients on the placebo have the symptom, it goes on the warning label as a possible side effect.

I don't see Valium/Diazapam on that list. I've had to take that a few times for back pain, and it gave me really bizarre, vivid dreams, and made me stupid during the day. I really didn't like it, so I'm working hard to keep my back exercised properly so I don't have to take it again.
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[*] posted on 12-3-2009 at 19:59


I once took 5-htp supplement before bed (as instructed!) and was up all night with the most vivid dreams i've ever had . There is something called dream herb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calea_zacatechichi (and that is all of my knowledge on this topic :))

[Edited on 13-3-2009 by sonogashira]
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[*] posted on 31-5-2009 at 01:03


Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
In principle even nicotine can be oneirogenic if aplied in such a way as to have delayed release (transdermaly, etc.), however due to its short duration it will not work by simply smoking strong tobacco or any of the usual means of application (of course, it also can not work if you are nicotine addicted)


What about nicotine patches? They release nicotine slowly over a long duration. I have never heard of such patches causing unusual dream states.
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[*] posted on 31-5-2009 at 06:28


The Nicotrol patch instructions say " do not forget to remove it at bedtime, you may have vivid dreams or other sleep disturbances".

People who sleep with a patch do report vivid, but not necessarily bad, dreams.

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[*] posted on 31-5-2009 at 10:10


I think the issue with bad dreams is caused by the fact that you have to awaken in the middle of the dream period in order to remeber it else it gets wiped from the main areas of memory. People will awaken more during a disturbing dream where they are being chased by vampires or something alot quicker then if they where just having some very basic dream where they are sitting on the couch watching tv.

Im a smoker and I personaly find that the lack of nicotine causes more vivid dreams then having it does. If I don't have a smoke before bed I have on many occasion had nightmares from it. I have also been plagued by them for years. This is one of the reasons to avoid TV because I find that it causes bad dreams on alot higher basis then if one focuses on things such as learning. I still have vivid dreams but they are alot more pleasent then when I watch TV(which I do not do at all anymore).





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[*] posted on 4-6-2009 at 18:14


5-HTP made me unable to sleep. More specifically, it gave me cramps a piercing headaches. It came from a pretty trustable source, typical pills from a health food store.

[Edited on 5-6-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]




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[*] posted on 4-6-2009 at 18:22


15mg of melatonin along with 40mg pyridoxine right before bed had some pretty noticeable effects. I didn't really remember what the dreams were actually about, but I remember they were much more extensive (lasting practiacally all night) and more vivid. It also made it very hard to get up in the morning, kept waking up for a little and slipping back into dreams. Interesting stuff.
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