| Pages:
1
..
6
7
8
9 |
DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You're trying to be telepathic again Nicodem - I am not taking the attitude "I am so much better than you"; more "I wish you'd learn to experiment
safely and be responsible so you dont cost us all our hobby". pHzero is "subjected" to my torment because he is as of yet the most irresponsible
"chemist" I have seen. Once he sorts his storage out and learns basic safety I shall begin to encourage him - until then, no cookie.
Again telepathy is not your strong point - I DID read the biography abstract of Kary Mullis - we've no doubt all made mistakes in our time. I bet they
didnt store sulfuric acid and potassium ferricyanide on their bedside tables though. Any chemist (such as yourself) will know this is a "recipe" for
disaster. And thats just what amateur chemistry needs to hit the headlines right now - then our situation will take a rather sharp turn for the worst.
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
Interesting that Nicodem singled out DJF90, who later apologized to Fountain. DJF's post was not nearly as insulting as the post he was responding to
in which Fountain told Sauron to Shut the F*** Up and accused him of trolling. But Fountain was not admonished.
[Edited] Nicodem pointed out that pHzero, not Fountain, was called an idiot.
Somewhat disingenuous?
Kary seems to be the only Nobelist who claimed the prize with the aid of LSD. I think it ill-advised to generalize that feat to other acid-heads.
I also think it's revealing that any attempt to seriously discuss the illegal drug issue is always derailed by name-calling and personal attacks.
It's a pretty effective way to silence those members who disagree with those in favor of illegal drug threads, isn't it?
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Entropy51, DJF did not call Fountain an idiot (as far I can see, unless he edited it out). He called that way a teenager (pHzero) who in another
thread posted some photos of his lab (if that can be called a lab at all). On the photos it was obvious his place was a mess and a potential danger,
yet there was no reason to call him idiot. I see no reason why to treat teenagers that way. I know exactly what I would think of a person calling me
that way if I was a teenager, and my feelings toward him would certainly not help me clean up the mess in the lab.
Obviously I will not gonna teach DJF and Fountain lessons about their mutual arrogant behaviour when they already settled things out, but exposing
pHzero again as an idiot and in his absence is... well, I already explained.
|
|
|
watson.fawkes
International Hazard
Posts: 2793
Registered: 16-8-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  |
You pervert the facts.
I did not "pick a political fight" with management or anyone else. A moderator told me that he would delete any post in which I criticizeed DRUG
FORUMS e.g. erowid, wetdreams, designer-drugs. I protested to Polveronee, he backed Nicodem.
I made no threat to leave. I SIMPLY LEFT. |
Politics is about making common decisions in a confined location,
decisions about actions to take. It extends far past the apparatus of the state, far past elections and the partisans of their candidates. It reaches
down to the level of family decisions. It reaches into the local bowling league. And, in the particular case, it is political issues within this
discussion forum that are at stake. It is a political issue about what to do with emotionally abusive members who persist in inflaming passions about
non-chemistry topics. It is a political issue about what to do about discussions about the synthesis of compounds illegal in most jurisdictions.
Now, the facts that are agreed are that Nicodem suppressed a posting by Sauron and Sauron protested. Nicodem was reacting to persistent inflammatory
language; he was acting second. The political fight started, however, when Sauron decided that he would not tolerate this act of moderation. There
were other actions available to Sauron. He could have, for example, reposted his original message without the offensive words. As these words were
wholly unrelated to the chemical subject matter of the message, this would have made a perfectly reasonable alternative, an alternative not chosen.
It's an apparent fact that Sauron not only picked the political fight, it was picking fights over non-chemistry topics that created the occasion for
the present controversy.
It's also an apparent fact that Sauron has lost this political fight.
As for Sauron's claim of having left, his previous actions belie his present claim of departure. It's like Chicken Little: "The Dark Lord is leaving!
The Dark Lord is leaving!" Whatever credibility Sauron might have had before about farewells were obliterated by his own previous actions.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
For Nicodem to accuse a pair of .evel headed and reasonable members of arrogance boggles the mind.
They did well against the onslaughts of the bigmouthed n00b F of D., and the perpetual gadfly and kibbitzer hissingnoise, who as his handle implies
rarely says anything ,ore substantive than steam escaping.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
pHzero is experimenting haphazardly and very irresponsibly. He is not unaware of the dangers involved, yet he does not take precautions to minimise
the dangers. This is in my eyes stupidity. A box of gloves does not cost much, and neither do a pair of safety specs. It is this total disregard of
safety that in my eyes makes pHzero an idiot. And to think he had goggles there, accessible to him, yet he decided not to use them, with a very
concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide - surely you see this as idiotic Nicodem. Dilute acid and it perhaps would be a different story, but strong
hydroxide solutions are unforgiving towards the eyes. The fact still remains that he is risking our hobby by these dangerous practices. I think that
if something were to happen and further restrictions were placed on chemistry as a result, then you would perhaps take a similar stance to me.
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by DJF90]
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
No I do not see it as idiotic. I see it as irresponsible, but I also see your resort to name calling just as irresponsible. Or do you dare to say
calling a young enthusiast as idiot is responsible behaviour? Responsible in what sense? Did you think you will save his life by calling him that way?
It is a question of maturity, and I expected more from you.
| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 |
Kary seems to be the only Nobelist who claimed the prize with the aid of LSD. I think it ill-advised to generalize that feat to other acid-heads.
|
You would be surprised if you knew more, but obviously you know almost nothing about psychedelics. I don't know why you have this need to call those
who do have personal experience as "acid-heads", but all that shows is that you are in no position to judge.
| Quote: | | I also think it's revealing that any attempt to seriously discuss the illegal drug issue is always derailed by name-calling and personal attacks.
It's a pretty effective way to silence those members who disagree with those in favor of illegal drug threads, isn't it? |
In this thread, I saw way more name calling directed to those few that were against any censorship based on some specific political viewpoints than
vice versa. We already have one censorship policy at this forum, that is to only allow scientific discourse. I think that is more than enough. There
were several threads that I would like to censor based on my political viewpoints and refrained from doing so just because the poster abode to forum
rules and used scientific discourse. Just as an example to show, how difficult this can be, this is a thread I would censor yet, because it uses scientific discourse I could not. I'll only give one example because here I really had to
fight against myself not to abuse of the moderator status. The other such thread that upset immensely me was started by Sauron, luckily before I was made moderator. Nevertheless, I had to admit that I learned a lot by
Sauron and drug cooks in regard to respecting others' political opinions. You might find it easy to draw a line on what is allowed to discuss or not,
but you are not a moderator and have no idea what it is when you really have to censor others.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
W-F
Defining politics to suit you argument is unworthy and renders the word meaningless. As a graduate political scienrist I reject your definition.
Inflammatory inscfmfmmatory. Ever hears of the de minimus principle. Trivia is what it was and trivi does not matter. Polverone stated in a PM to me
that he personally would NOT have taken the action Nicodem did, but he backed Nicodem anyway - to be expected in any chain of command. Have you never
seen a Good Cop/Bad Cop team in action?
Nicodem did what he did because it suited his agenda. End of story. Almost 2.5 years ago in a public post he called me a provocateur out to destroy
the foru. He never changed his mind. I protested when he was elevated to mod. No avail. The events of the past week are the culmination of Nocidel's
goal to drive me out of here.
I resisted until my own strategic goal of a serious chemical library was realized, the last of it thanks to alter. I am largely indepemdemt of
References and anyway have plenty of friends still here and can get what I need by proxy, I calculate therefore that the forum has more to lose by my
defection than I do. Therefore Nicodem can enjoy his victory, even if it is a pyrrhic one.
Volumes XI-XVI of Nellor will gwt scanned by me, but my scans will never be here, or anywhere else on the Net. Same with Reid and whatever else I can
in future. Generosity means little to polverone compared to letting his pet attack dog chew on my ankle over trivia.
No telepathy was required on my part, Nicodem's public and private staenebts abd his actions for almost all the time I was registered are consistent
and the tapestry easy to read.
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nicodem: If he doesnt see himself that storing chemicals like that is dangerous (which he obviously doesnt or he wouldnt have them stored like that)
then, yes, I feel it is responsible to tell him how stupid it is. It would be irresponsible of me however to just ignore the situation and have him
gas himself. I would hardly classify it as name calling - an idiot is someone who is stupid. I'm sure you can match the caption to the picture.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
DJF
There are old chemists
Ans there are bold chemists
There are no old, bold chemists.
The guy is bucking for a Darwin Award nomination.
You know, Evolution in Action.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
The Fountain of Discordia
Harmless
Posts: 31
Registered: 18-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
|
|
No worries. I did some quite not-right things in my other posts directed at you, so you have mine as well.
Next...
You see? Acronyms are quite a bit less obscene than using the phrase and inserting apostrophes! And I accused him of trolling because he IS trolling.
"But TFoD, what proof do you have???"
Well...
| Quote: Originally posted by Sauron |
And no matter what anyone says a chemist who cooks illicit drugs is a cook. He need not say SWIM, he need not ask for spoonfeeding, and he need not
use doper acronyms, He is still a cook. |
That's pretty damn clear trolling if you ask me. If you need more proof...
Next...
See? This is why I accused the guy of trolling. He notes that elitespeak annoys me, and then uses it to try to get a rise out of me.
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]
Chemistry is art by other means.
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Sauron |
Polverone stated in a PM to me that he personally would NOT have taken the action Nicodem did, but he backed Nicodem anyway - to be expected in any
chain of command. Have you never seen a Good Cop/Bad Cop team in action? |
Just before you finally leave for real, answer this. After the last forum software upgrade (that brought with it lots of new bugs, but that is another
story), there is this novelty that every action taken by the moderators is recorded as a mini-post in the thread. Show me, where have I taken any
action whatsoever? As far as I can see, the only one taking any action was you by starting a farewell soap opera.
Also, you have no introspective in the internal dynamics among the moderators. So how come you know so much, unless you are playing political
games? (since you are such an expert in political sciences obviously you know that politics equals fighting for power - no need to pretend of being
clueless about the meaning of the word)
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
FoCrap, you clearly do not know what a troll is.
Since you ARE a loudmothed newbie cretin, it is not trolling to u.sdescribe you thus.
You have amply demonstrated those unendearing trains upthread by continuing to inject yourself into a quarrel among grownups.
Bad idea.
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Micodem
Again you define terms to suit yourself.
You PM to me was an action.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
The Fountain of Discordia
Harmless
Posts: 31
Registered: 18-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
|
|
Actually, I do. You see, when me and my family came under the assault of a group of racist trolls known as "/i/nsurgency", my identity was stolen, and
I received several deaththreats a day, 20k emails a minute etc... That was the big stuff. There were smaller aspects too. Later I found their site and
the manuals and tutorials for harassment they collected there. Your statements and style of comment are close to textbook, mate.
Also, your spelling is slipping again.
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by The Fountain of Discordia]
Chemistry is art by other means.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Well, I have never heard of them, MATE, and I live in South East Asia. My style is mine own. You can take your insinuations and park them in your
colon sideways.
I'm a 58 year old who fought in VN, I have Asian wife and adult son and to the sort of people you describe I would be termed a "race traitor" which is
not a very good qualification for some BS Aryan Nation type militia, is it?
Anyway even were that not so - I have never been much of a joiner.
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Sauron |
Volumes XI-XVI of Nellor will gwt scanned by me, but my scans will never be here, or anywhere else on the Net. Same with Reid and whatever else I can
in future. Generosity means little to polverone compared to letting his pet attack dog chew on my ankle over trivia.
|
This is astounding, petty selfishness. You are going to punish me by withholding from everyone, even the members of the new forum you move on
to, the books that you are going to scan anyway.
There was one time before, a while ago, that you were almost banned. I do not remember the exact thread, but there was a discussion that you made some
good contributions to and then lost your temper over something. You deleted the information you had previously shared to punish the people you
disliked. It's hard to make me really angry but you succeeded then. You would have been banned at once had my browser not crashed as I was posting the
message explaining why. I decided to sleep on it instead of retrying, and the next morning felt that your other sharing outweighed that one deeply
selfish act.
But it was never really sharing, was it? It was building up credit that you could spend. When you realized that credit can't buy new policies here you
decided to throttle the flow of information to everyone.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Interpret things any way you like.
You didn't REALLY expect me to give any more scans to you> After you let Nicodem crap all over me? Naive. People are not built that way.
AFAIK the new forum will not have a library per se, the subject has not arisen.
New policies were never part of my thinking, I knew you were never going to alter your stance. I did expect a level playing fiels, though, and I never
got that. Certainly not after you empowered a bitter enemy (you know who.)
Petty? You didn't buy the books, or the scanner, or do the labor. I gave you what you got freely, you have zero claim on the rest. I TOLD you I was
scanning them for myself. Now that I have absented myself from here, why on the green earth should I give you one more page?
Surely you are not going to sing Auld Lang Syne?
If you did not see this coming, I am surprised. In that case I would advise against playing chess.
In the accounting of credits and debits, you used to have a great deal of respect accrued with me. You have squandered it. You have let Nicodem
squandwe it till nothing is left. As you seem ro be difficult to anger you seem remarkably incapable of comprehending what makes others upset. You
have said as much to me. Not recently. This is a blind spot in your "people skills", polverone. But that does nothing to excuse you.
I told you on July 3 a week ago to deregister me. You instead told me how to do it at my convenience. I THINK you expected me to cool down after
talking it all out in this thread, and eventually slink back like I did in 2007. Isn't that the case?
I trust now you see that WILL NOT OCCUR. Not if you reversed Nicodem, not if you removed him as mod, neither of which you would even think about I am
sure. The simple fact is as I nolonger respect you I can no longer trust you and it is a long dry spell since you gace me reason to think otherwise.
Goodbye, Polverone. Life is full of vicissitudes, isn't it
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3227
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
There are a lot of strongly opinionated people posting to this thread when it seemed the original intention was simply to state a matter of fact.
There are a number of us here who will miss Sauron and many who won't. It appears to be a pretty polarizing issue. The fact of the matter is that he
is leaving. Over the course of the thread he has raised a number of points regarding why he is leaving.
The problem is that these points are contentious issues for many of the people here. And when you have something that you feel strongly about the
ability to accept parts of the counterargument lessens. I'll admit that a number of the points were soundly argued but no one is going to change
their opinion on anything. For better or worse, the internet breeds bull-headedness, especially due to the anonymous nature of the internet.
Counterpoints tend to be ignored unless they gift an opening for counter attack.
Please, this thread has gone on for some time. If Sauron leaves for good or he doesn't, maybe the powers that be should lock this thread. Regardless
of this going against free speech (one of the many points to this thread) and in spite of Sauron's own right to say his goodbyes or defend himself,
that is where my vote lies at the moment. Because as this tread goes on it is seemingly generating yet more animosity where it did not exist before,
and as that happens the propensity of it to spill over into other threads, in other sections of this forum where it does not belong, increases
greatly.
Best of luck Sauron,
Bromic
|
|
|
Saerynide
National Hazard
Posts: 954
Registered: 17-11-2003
Location: The Void
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ionic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | | Kary seems to be the only Nobelist who claimed the prize with the aid of LSD. I think it ill-advised to generalize that feat to other acid-heads.
|
Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I just wanted to express that not everyone who experiments with LSD (or psychedelics in general) is an
"acid-head" or abuser. There's a difference between responsible use and abuse. Just like not every who drinks is an alcoholic.
Speaking of which, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous quit drinking and founded AA when he saw the light on acid. One trip, even if it's a bad one,
can change your life, and almost always for the better.
Obviously, I'm not saying recreational substances are great and you should try them. No, I'd never imply that, because that choice is yours and yours
alone - in responsible use, one never asks anyone else to try anything.
Responsible people also never hurt anyone else with their experimentation. So why so bitter towards members here who like experimenting?
[Edit]:
Banning certain discussions are not going to change society's perception of amateur chemistry. We are but a small fish in the sea of paranoia.
Everyone is so chemophobic - everything either gives you cancer, destroys the ecosystem, is a drug that will destroy society, or is a bomb to bring
down planes. What difference can we actually make?
What else do we have left, if we don't have freedom of information?
[Edited on 7/10/2009 by Saerynide]
"Microsoft reserves the right at all times to monitor communications on the Service and disclose any information Microsoft deems necessary to...
satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
Bitter? How dare you call me bitter!
Actually, Thank you  That's the gentlest flame that's been thrown in this
thread.
Trust me, I'm not bitter. But I explained at length a couple pages back. In summary:
"Science Madness really represents the face of amateur chemistry on the internet. There are others, especially in Europe, but we are probably the main
forum in English.
I would like to see amateur chemistry once again become respectable."
I have no argument with people who do want to experiment. I do take issue with the people who've ruined many rural and small towns in the US by
selling meth and oxycodone. They have ruined lives and whole communities. But that's not my issue.
My issue is that I'd like to belong to an amateur chemistry discussion group that I wouldn't be ashamed to tell co-workers I participated in.
My issue is that I wish the line between amateur chemistry and dope cooking wasn't so blurred as to make them indistinguishable to the general public.
The mixture of the two on this forum contributes mightily to that blurring. Don't forget that forum members are not the only people who read this
forum. I read it almost every day for six years before joining. I was so put off by the drug discussions that it took me that long to decide to sign
up.
It just isn't necessary to have drug discussions to have a good amateur chemistry forum.
[Edited on 10-7-2009 by entropy51]
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Bromic, I have burned my bridges, can't you see? There will be no kissing and making up. It's finito.
Your solution however is no solution, like lipstick on a pig. As someone else (entropy?) said eloquently upthread, the elephant is in the tent. Not
the elephant;s nostrils under the fkap. The whole pachyderm. You can't hang a big tablecloth on the jumbo and claim it's furniture. You have to deal
with it or change tents.
I'm changing tents and we will be keeping our elephant guns loaded and cocked.
You have alwats been a reasonable person. So, I wish you all the best in whatever you undertake.
Adieu, or maybe au revoir.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
|
|
|
PainKilla
Hazard to Others
Posts: 306
Registered: 29-4-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'd like to add my views on the state/evolution of MSDB, if you will...
When I joined in 2004, I would in retrospect most certainly classify myself as a 'kewl' or at the very least, an uninformed newbie... Irrespective of
this fact, at the time I joined the forum atmosphere was *far* more forgiving than it is now. I am quite sure that some of the posts I made would have
led to my being scolded for posting such crap (though, maybe I am treating my old self a little harshly) - regardless, comparing then with now, I
still hold largely the same interest - chemistry.
Coming from the world of pyrotechnics / energetic materials (which are (and were)) illegal - finding a forum that actually discussed the purely
scientific aspects of them was immensely interesting - after all, when you ignore the history and unfortunate things caused by them, as with anything
else, they can be quite fascinating constructs. It was certainly a breath of fresh air from forums where the actual uses (ala pyrotechnics, or more
nefarious goals) were the primary focus of discussion.
Similarly, drugs (neglecting all the stigma carried with them, and treating them purely from a scientific standpoint) were also quite interesting, as
indeed the chemistry was associated with them. And, like energetic materials - these too, were deemed illegal...
With both areas, there was a common thing: chemistry. Of course, one could make the argument that anyone working towards creating drugs or energetic
materials (or anything else for that matter) is working towards a goal, which therefore neglects the common element of all of this - chemistry.
But this simply isn't universally true. One only need to consult the literature, to see that so much chemistry has been performed with specific goals
in mind - all modern chemistry is exactly this way. To say that having a goal in mind corrupts the original motivation seems quite absurd to me.
There are many different ways to make something for example - exploring different routes, performing new reactions - these things are *all* chemistry
(that it is done under an amateur setting is really quite irrelevant from a philosophical context).
It is true of course, that some people are truly concerned with the value of the product, and the means are merely that and of little interest of
themselves.
But, at the same time, who but the great natural philosophers of the past have investigated in this way? I am sure that everyone in modern times (at
least since chemistry became widespread in society) has been charmed by chemistry by a demonstration of a product coming from a practical end: a
firework, an explosive, a drug, an entertaining chemical reaction (ala woelen ).
It seems to me, that this site, likely all has already much of the chemists interested in the means primarily rather than the end - simply put, a site
that enables any person to explore chemistry as it has in the past, allowing everyone to become a natural philosopher with respect to the elements of
the world...
Naturally, we are all concerned also, about our continuing ability to do so (which could be comprimised by those with, perhaps, more nefarious
purposes in mind for the product of the means used to get there). But, is it truly of any benefit to drive those people away, instead of relying on
chemistry's natural charm to interest those people in the means themselves?
I imagine, no small percentage of the population of scientists has indeed first approached some field, hoping to achieve an end, but found the field
itself of greater interest than the end they were hoping to achieve...
I can say as much with myself, and I am very confident that I am not alone.
What seems to be the issue, is that as the forum got older, so did the members, therefore the natural quality of the discussions grew, probably
leading more 'professionally trained' members to join... But, being an amateur chemistry forum with the intent to promote, as the banner at the top of
the site has long said ' the art and science of amateur experimentalism', it seems fundamentally contradictive to start heavily censoring any new
members who don't seem to agree with some political ideology held by the 'greater' part of the forum - drugs, explosively, poisons - all of these
things are simply elements of the world - there isn't an intrinsic moral tag attached to them - that is something attached by society.
With respect to science, I do not see how any scientist can uphold otherwise - the concern here, seems purely one of 'questionable standing in the
face of the law, and thus giving potential risk in the long term.'
I agree completely, that this is of concern - giving information to any person in the world, and hoping that they are intent on using the information
for good purposes, or that the nature of the information is so powerful that it induces some sort of moral transformation of said person, is probably
overly optimistic.
So naturally, some standards are important to have in place. Unfortunately, I think some members appear to think that this forum *must* have some
self-consistent goal that is followed by everyone using the forum - but really, what sort of self-consistency can last when you are in amateur
settings? Most members probably don't even have access to physical literature (letting alone the even bigger problems in accessing literature online
with the backing of an employer or university).
The purpose of the forum, in my opinion, should be to create and incite interest in those performing chemistry outside of professional settings,
shouldn't it? In other words, I would imagine MSDB like an effective 'online' university that is (or should be) focused merely towards promoting and
enabling people to become interested in chemistry, such that they may gain enough motivation to do future research on their own, without relying on
others (but also able to ask for help when appropriate, in addition to actually having a place where they can freely do so).
If you are going to drive away all people who might be charmed, what sort of forum would you be left with, 5 or 10 years down the road? This of
course, does not withold at all the discussion of advanced topics - the difference is merely that when someone inexperienced asks about some topic
(whether with the means or the end in mind) - they should not be turned away by some greater (and completely irrelevant with respect to science)
context such as a member's personal disagreement with whatever content is at hand...
People should be encouraged to search, as a teacher points one in the appropriate direction to self-investigate the matter... Posts should be written
so people can understand... People shouldn't be discouraged for asking questions - YOU might think it's stupid, but someone else might not - and then
you can spend your time, instead of reading stupid posts, doing something else - and the other person might be kind enough to add some input, or point
the person in the right direction, such that future 'stupid' posts no longer happen (and also, such that the question will be put to rest, and will no
longer be needed to be asked again).
So long as a post maintains some effort of thought with respect to chemistry, then I think replies should strive to educate and further encourage that
sort of thinking... This is the sort of thing that led to my 'evolution' above and beyond recreational drugs and energetic materials, and led to my
fascination with the greater world (and those subsets are naturally included within this new one)...
Can't we all just get along and help others with topics we deem appropriate without breaking civility in those topics with which we don't agree? In
the absolute worst case scenario, you can always just not answer a post you don't agree with (or not read it at all - that even saves you the effort
of dealing with other people's 'stupidity').
But why be rude at any point in time at all? Forgive and forget - it saves you both time *and* irritation.
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
PainKilla, thank you for some words of wisdom. Seriously. I may be only one with enough patience to read it all, though.
The forum is a microcosm of society, and unfortunately people aren't very nice to one another these days.
|
|
|
Saerynide
National Hazard
Posts: 954
Registered: 17-11-2003
Location: The Void
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ionic
|
|
Painkilla: Exactly! This should not be a pro-drug or pro-explosives forum, nor anti. It should be just pro-chemistry 
Entropy:
Sorry, if that came off as a flame. I didn't mean to offend you. No hard feelings, ok?
I realise we are a big part of amatuer chemistry. When I first joined this forum 6 years ago, I was fascinated by this place. It was a gem - where
real science was being done by amateurs. Making sodium in your backyard?? Axehandle's (I don't believe he comes around here anymore) experiments had
my jaws on the floor. Here was the only place in this world unadulterated by paranoia, where I could learn about anything without fear of people
going "is this legal??"
Back then, I lived in the fine country where you are killed (trials... hahha) if you bring in illegal substances. I was a naive junior in highschool
who, sitting in AP Bio class, suddenly became really interested in chemistry (how, I've absolutely no idea). I wanted to make things like H2SO4 and
iodine, just for the hell of it (I didn't even know what use one had for iodine, except marvel at how pretty it was, no seriously ) I became an avid shelf-scanner and label reader at the hardware stores, took
apart Li batteries, and ran thermite reactions with my friends.
And then I realized how many drug-related discussions were going on (took me a while to "get" it). I was well, shocked, because people here talked
about this kind of stuff! Just like that! And, they're serious!  Not like
the anarchist cookbook garbage that will get you killed in about 5 min after set-up.
I was also not at all interested in psychoactive chemicals, back then. I thought it was stupid for anyone to want to be messed up. But still, the
fact that people talked so openly and scientifically about such topics was REALLY cool (at least, to a 16 yr old).
Since going to college back on the free (home) side of the pond, my views changed significantly. In fact, the first trip was solely for the sake of
science - to know what it was like (I'm totally serious  ) I even took the
precaution to chain one hand (using plastic cable-ties) to a bed post lest I tried to jump out a window . I was freaked out beyond measure for 10 torturing hours, haha. When I came back to the real world, it became so
obvious, how important life was, because I thought I would never come back. Now, I'm 23 and absolutely certain I want to pursue a career in the
pharmaceutical industry (cancer drugs), because life *is* that important, and I want to preserve it and make it better.
In the East, I've had my fair share of paranoia, thinking "they" were on to me (hahha, a 16 yr old, trying to make H2SO4 by electrolysis of bath salt,
and they "on" to me?? ), and getting angry at how you can't even buy NaOH drain
cleaner here... I tried to buy Al powder, telling them I'm an art student making metallic paint, and people thought I was insane!
I understand why you care for the face of amatuer chemistry. I did too for the longest time. I wished I could talk to people about my interests, and
not have them think me a terrorist, a cook, or even, a dork (haha teenagers...)
It took a while to accept, but I finally realized, there's no point in getting upset. They will never un-ban chemicals. And cops who see your lab
*will* raid your be-hind, even if the only thing you cook is pasta. That's just the way it is unfortunately. Society is too afraid and unwilling to
learn (people are always saying benzne-this, benzene-that...) If I ask for sodium bicarbonate, I'm a terrorist. If I ask for baking soda, I just a
girl baking cookies.
Even my mom can't get over artificial flavors - I tell her "Look mom, it's the SAME molecule in pears, why's it matter it's not actually from real
pears?" She asks me "Honey, you study chemistry (she thinks chemE is chem), you know chemicals are bad for you" See? I can't even convince my own
mom.... How can we convince society?
I am no cook, but I am wary of talking to people about my interests (even if it's legal like dismembering batteries). We just have to stockpile and
do our stuff behind closed curtains.
Even though I think it unwise to talk about SMDB other people, I am not ashamed to. If we talk about it here in scientific discourse, people who
don't understand chemistry won't get it either way. People who are science-minded, well, probably won't mind (if academic journals can talk about
this stuff, why can't we? ) If they do mind, they always have the option to not
participate in the thread.
It's not that I think we *need* to have drug discussions, but that I think we don't need to not have them. Since we can't change the immovable, why
not let the scientific discussions remain? Who knows, some else might learn as much as I did
[Edited on 7/10/2009 by Saerynide]
"Microsoft reserves the right at all times to monitor communications on the Service and disclose any information Microsoft deems necessary to...
satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
..
6
7
8
9 |
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
