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ChemistryForever
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 13:07
red P in EU


Would buying 100g of red P in EU sound suspicious ?
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 15:40


Buying that much red phosphorus most anywhere can seem suspicious, unfortunately.



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DavidJR
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 16:54


I bought 250g and didn't have any problems.
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ChemistryForever
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 17:01


Where did you buy that red P from ? I basically need it for P halides and to have like 10-20g maximum left over just to be there if I will ever need it to use in pure form.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 17:22


I just bought 250g from onyxmet in Poland. It is currently in transit to Australia. I am prepared to answer questions about it but I don't anticipate problems.

They are pretty experienced and efficient and do what the can to make transit smooth.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 17:26


it would since so be ready to answers some questions if it comes too that, most likely won't but still.



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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 17:48


Red Phosphorus is difficult to purchase in the U.S..

Other places, perhaps not.

Big Pharma mightily resisted restrictions on Pseudo-Ephedrine sales in the U.S.. Law enforcement was frustrated by the impasse, and countered by restricting Iodine and Phosphorus, sales; in order to block illicit Methamphetamine production.

There has been some easing on the control of Iodine sales. While Phosphorus remains a hard get in the U.S..
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ChemistryForever
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 17:48


Waiting for your answer to see if they questioned you about that red P.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 18:08


It will be at least a couple of weeks until it arrives. It was shipped yesterday.

It is a listed item: meaning that it is watched and that if you buy from Australian supplier you must complete a EUD (end user declaration). Australian customs mostly check for glassware though. There is a chance it will pass through undetected.

My standard practice in ordering sensitive items is to open and check everything has shipped and is in order, and then leave it sitting in the box for a couple of weeks. This, I think is the opposite of what a clan lab would do. And then, if the police do pay a visit, I can say, "Here's the package. Here's how it arrived." I don't need to show them anything else unless they ask.

I will grab a business card and get them to record their visit in my lab journal. Any further questions and I will show them my element collection and my list of experiments that I intend to do and record for my educational yt channel. Given that my chem hobby is closely linked with my role as a science teacher, I don't think it is too hard for me to justify.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 19:06


Quote: Originally posted by ChemistryForever  
Where did you buy that red P from ? I basically need it for P halides and to have like 10-20g maximum left over just to be there if I will ever need it to use in pure form.


I got mine from limac.lv.

[Edited on 10-1-2019 by DavidJR]
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[*] posted on 9-1-2019 at 21:21


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Quote: Originally posted by ChemistryForever  
Where did you buy that red P from ? I basically need it for P halides and to have like 10-20g maximum left over just to be there if I will ever need it to use in pure form.


I got mine from limac.lv.

[Edited on 10-1-2019 by DavidJR]


I bought 1kg from limac, no problems.




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[*] posted on 10-1-2019 at 00:55


In the EU the purchase of red P is not an issue. I already purchased this element multiple times, my last purchase was at 4N purity real red P, free of white P, for my element collection. I also have samples of other purities and I have it in the form of a very fine powder, but also much coarser (like sand) material.

You have to be careful with buying red P though. There is good quality and safe red P, but there also is really dangerous and inferior stuff. Some sellers have red P, which contains a lot of white P. One of the members on sciencemadness (belgian member pyro) had a terrible fire when he took some red P from its container (he documented what happened on sciencemadness, you can find it all back with some searching, and he almost lost his father in the fire). At that time I happened to have 200 grams of red P from the same seller and this stuff had a pungent smell of white phosphorus. After pyro's accident I decided not to use that crappy red P and buy a new sample from a more reputable supplier. The inferior red P was very cheap (just a few euros per 100 grams, 30 euros or so per kg) while having a purity of better than 99.8%. That low price made me buy it. It may contain 95% red P and 4.8% white P and still be listed as 99.8% pure phosphorus! Good quality red P only has a faint smell of white P. Really good stuff is odorless. If it has a very strong smell, then be careful, it may ignite spontaneously on a warm summer day when taken out of its container!

The production process of red P inherently leads to contamination with white P. It is made by heating white P and allowing the phosphorus to sublime into a solid at a quite high temperature, so that it settles as red P. In this way you get very pure phosphorus, but the final product may be an allotropic mix instead of a single allotrope if the process is not controlled precisely.




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[*] posted on 10-1-2019 at 03:51


What shape and size does commercial red P look like? Is it like a powder like most other chemicals or larger grains/beads like I2?



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[*] posted on 10-1-2019 at 05:28


Quote: Originally posted by fusso  
What shape and size does commercial red P look like? Is it like a powder like most other chemicals or larger grains/beads like I2?


Limac.lv sells it powdered, similar to coffee creamer..




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[*] posted on 10-1-2019 at 05:45


I have different samples.
I have 100 grams in the form of a very fine free flowing powder, with a nice brick-red/brown color (purchased at the now non-existent seller www.kno3.com from the UK). I like this sample very much. The red P is really fine and this makes it nicely reactive. It does not contain much white P though, it only has a weak smell.
I have another 100 grams, which is much coarser. It is from Merck, a german supplier. I obtained it as old stock. It is not free-flowing, slightly humid. It has a clearly noticeable smell, but the smell is not overpowering.
Then I have 200 grams of that dubious seller I mentioned in my previous post. This material has a fairly light red/brown color with a purple tinge, it is free flowing, perfectly dry, and has a very strong smell. The granules have many different sizes, the largest are half a mm or so, but there also is very fine powder in it. This is the stuff I do not use for experiments, too dangerous, due to risk of spontaneous ignition in contact with air. I still have it around, bubble-wrap around suppliers' somewhat flimsy bottle. I don't know what I will do with it. Maybe burn it in a controlled way, outside, or try to find a way to clean it.
My final and most recent sample is 20 grams of 99.99% red P (really 99.99% as red P, it was expensive at 20 euros per 10 grams). Perfectly odorless, very uniform particle size and very uniform fairly dark red/brown color. I ampouled most of it in glass.

[Edited on 10-1-19 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 10-1-2019 at 07:30



Just wondering could you you give red p a crude test for the presence of white p by blowing (gently) a flow of oxygen on it?

Some here

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Phosphor-rot-min-98/142872881870?has...
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[*] posted on 10-1-2019 at 10:44


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
In the EU the purchase of red P is not an issue. I already purchased this element multiple times, my last purchase was at 4N purity real red P, free of white P, for my element collection. I also have samples of other purities and I have it in the form of a very fine powder, but also much coarser (like sand) material.

You have to be careful with buying red P though. There is good quality and safe red P, but there also is really dangerous and inferior stuff. Some sellers have red P, which contains a lot of white P. One of the members on sciencemadness (belgian member pyro) had a terrible fire when he took some red P from its container (he documented what happened on sciencemadness, you can find it all back with some searching, and he almost lost his father in the fire). At that time I happened to have 200 grams of red P from the same seller and this stuff had a pungent smell of white phosphorus. After pyro's accident I decided not to use that crappy red P and buy a new sample from a more reputable supplier. The inferior red P was very cheap (just a few euros per 100 grams, 30 euros or so per kg) while having a purity of better than 99.8%. That low price made me buy it. It may contain 95% red P and 4.8% white P and still be listed as 99.8% pure phosphorus! Good quality red P only has a faint smell of white P. Really good stuff is odorless. If it has a very strong smell, then be careful, it may ignite spontaneously on a warm summer day when taken out of its container!

The production process of red P inherently leads to contamination with white P. It is made by heating white P and allowing the phosphorus to sublime into a solid at a quite high temperature, so that it settles as red P. In this way you get very pure phosphorus, but the final product may be an allotropic mix instead of a single allotrope if the process is not controlled precisely.


The relevant thread by Pyro:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=23...




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[*] posted on 11-1-2019 at 13:14


oi m8, do you got a loiscence for dat?



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[*] posted on 19-1-2019 at 00:39


Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II  

Just wondering could you you give red p a crude test for the presence of white p by blowing (gently) a flow of oxygen on it?

Some here

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Phosphor-rot-min-98/142872881870?has...

According to this datasheet:
https://shop.es-drei.de/documents/spezifikation/SPEC_S100184...

The red P you linked contains no more than 0,003% white P.
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[*] posted on 19-1-2019 at 04:17


Has anyone tested whether the red P sold by limac contains significant amounts of white P? I want to buy some, but I really don't want to have the risk of it igniting spontaneously.
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[*] posted on 19-1-2019 at 06:45


Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride  
Has anyone tested whether the red P sold by limac contains significant amounts of white P? I want to buy some, but I really don't want to have the risk of it igniting spontaneously.


I can test that, but I doubt it has a lot of white P in it, I have it for several months, I have opened container about 50 times, I have shook the container and still have powder which has not ignited, the smell is there, but it is not strong.

How do I test it? With oxygen?




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[*] posted on 19-1-2019 at 07:33


Well, considering you have 1kg of the stuff and it hasn't ignited at all until now, it would be pretty safe to assume it doesn't have nearly enough white P to become pyrophoric.
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[*] posted on 19-1-2019 at 07:50


I agree with these observations re Limac.lv's red phosphorus.
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