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Author: Subject: h202 concentration?
SeSteMyBe
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 17:25
h202 concentration?


i have hade small amount of acetone peroxide before using 10 % h202. i looked around for a while so dont flame me please. i need a way to concentrate mt 10 % h202 to around 30%( the higher the better) i have 6 gallons of 10% h202 and would rather concentrate it than buy a higher concentration. any ideas that can be done to concentrate it? ive heard of evaporation and some way with elecrosis. any help is greatly apriciated thank you
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Haggis
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 18:03


It can be concentrated by boiling at 100 degrees to about 112 degrees. Keep it as low as possible. It has worked fairly well for me.



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tom haggen
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 18:23


I can't wait to get a hot plate. So I can control the temperature perfectly.

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by tom haggen]




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Mendeleev
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 19:18


If you feel like being cheap and wasting some time monitoring temperature, you can buy a duraband single burner, aka hot plate, at Wal-Mart for ~ $9.



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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 02:10


I was under the impression that boiling H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> was not the best way to concentrate it, as you inevitably lost O<sub>2</sub>. Apparently, though, you can freeze it. You'll end up with a lump of ice in liquid. This liquid should be about 50% peroxide iirc. The ice is of no use.
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a_bab
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 05:56


Actually, the ice contains some of the H2O2, but probably less then 3 %. And the liquid is not that concentrated, it's maybe 20-25 %.

I have a method for concentrating H2O2 up to around 90% if anyone interested.
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Saerynide
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 08:40


Lets hear it... not that Im gonna try killing myself making it :D
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 11:57


Oh cut the suspense and just post it! I'd be up for makin it. What for? No idea, but it seems neat to have a bit of it around. NO FEAR :D
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Haggis
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 12:00


I would love to hear your method. However, amature experimenters must keep in mind that distilling hydrogen peroxide at high concentrations like that can go catastrophically wrong when a small amount of organic material violently decomposes the entire lot of peroxide. I don't know if one could ever get their apparatus absolutely clean, I've always had a problem keeping my supplies spotless. Another method is to produce the hydrogen peroxide from a reaction with sodium peroxide.



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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 13:13


WARNING: The following procedure is stupidly dangerous and should not be attempted under any circumstances

Hydrogen peroxide can be concentrated by shaking it with diethyl ether. A layer of ether mixed with hydrogen peroxide will form, which can be seperated off. The hydrogen peroxide can then be isolated by boiling off the ether.




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guaguanco
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 13:53


Quote:
Originally posted by I am a fish
WARNING: The following procedure is stupidly dangerous and should not be attempted under any circumstances

Hydrogen peroxide can be concentrated by shaking it with diethyl ether. A layer of ether mixed with hydrogen peroxide will form, which can be seperated off. The hydrogen peroxide can then be isolated by boiling off the ether.

That's so suicidal it's just plain funny!:)
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Haggis
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 14:49


Really clever, did you think of it yourself? Damn...good idea and advice, but not that the info's out, some k3wl with a can of starting fluid and some 3% will try out "something I learned on the internet". Peroxides of ether are fun.



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guaguanco
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 15:02


some interesting info

purification
hey, look at this!

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by guaguanco]
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Mendeleev
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 17:16


There are three ways of concentrating hydrogen peroxide, one as was mentioned is distilling. It would be preferable to distill at 40 C under vacuum. If anybody needs a cheap vacuum pump go to http://www.sciplus.com (I get all my supplies from there because it is the cheapest source around even if they don't have the greatest selection, but they do have some nice 85 pound lifting capacity ceramic magnets :D) Freezing was also mentioned. Below 62% water freezes before hydrogen peroxide, but after 62% hydrogen peroxide freezes before water. So quite high concentrations can be achieved if you freeze it to 62%, throw out the ice and then freeze it again, this time keeping the ice which is now relatively pure hydrogen peroxide. Another method is sparging, which involves bubbling warm dry air through a hydrogen peroxide solution. You can buy bernzomatic oxygen tanks at home depot or lowes for about $8 a tank. If you have a good vacuum pump I would recommend distilling as it guarantees the highest concentration. Heres a website I found while searching google with some nut's design for a hydrogen peroxide distillation rig http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/Reports/Stills_199x.html Doesn't this thread belong in the reagents and apparatus aquisition section?

[Edited on 9-1-2004 by Mendeleev]
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[*] posted on 9-1-2004 at 03:59


Quote:
Originally posted by Haggis
Really clever, did you think of it yourself? Damn...good idea and advice,


I believe that seperation with ether was once used industrially to concentrate H2O2. For obvious reasons, it is not used today.

Quote:

but not that the info's out, some k3wl with a can of starting fluid and some 3% will try out "something I learned on the internet". Peroxides of ether are fun.


There are plenty of stupidly dangerous procedures described on this forum.




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[*] posted on 9-1-2004 at 13:55


peroxides of ether form from O<sub>2</sub> not H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> (but it can accelerate it by its degradation to O<sub>2</sub>;) maybe a second extraction with CH<sub>2</sub>Cl<sub>2</sub> could remove the peroxide? this method could probably be used to make <i>in situ</i> binary explosives.
what is the ratio of H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>/ether in the extract?




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[*] posted on 18-1-2004 at 15:49
H2o2


Just boil it in a pan over the over until it gets 1/10th of the way down then you have concentration between 20-30% I assume your boiling down 3%.



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[*] posted on 18-1-2004 at 18:28


Quote:
Originally posted by Mendeleev
:D) Freezing was also mentioned. Below 62% water freezes before hydrogen peroxide, but after 62% hydrogen peroxide freezes before water. So quite high concentrations can be achieved if you freeze it to 62%, throw out the ice and then freeze it again, this time keeping the ice which is now relatively pure hydrogen peroxide.
[Edited on 9-1-2004 by Mendeleev]


Your method sounds very workable with one minor change. You'd want to "bridge the gap".

Freeze concentrate, removing water ice until concentration reached a suitable 50ish% and then evap to 70ish% and then freeze concentrate collecting H.perox.Ice until 90+% and then distill till ya get the hi-test!

The freezing points are just too close between 55% and 65% to be able to cross the barrier w/out massive losses.

Lookit Guaguanco's chart.




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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 00:21


Once I left a small amount of 50% H2O2 on a plate to dry. A couple of days later the volume had decreased to an oily liquid. I had no use for it so I discarded it in a pot plant. I was quite alarmed by the commotion it caused. It was violently oxidising any organic material it came in contact with, so much so that even the sand was glowing from the heat. The stuff must have been seriously concentrated by simple evapouration, great if you have the time.
I live in a fairly dry climate, and I'm not sure if H2O2 is a water scavenger so it might/not work in a humid climate.

ps, If you have concentrated H2O2, keep it clean and away from everything. Treat it like a god, or it could really spoil your day.

[Edited on 19-1-2004 by froot]
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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 01:28


Do you have a picture of what the plant looked like after? :D
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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 04:39


Nope I don't unfortunately. Out of curiosity, why would one want to concentrate H2O2 to near 100% in the first place?
-unless:- could one form pure HNO3 from bubbling NO2 through pure H2O2??

[Edited on 19-1-2004 by froot]




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Saerynide
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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 05:39


I dont wanna make 100% h202, not even above 50%. I seriously do not want my house catching fire :P
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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 09:41


Quote:

what is the ratio of H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>/ether in the extract?


I have no idea. Please don't try it. :(




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Mendeleev
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[*] posted on 19-1-2004 at 09:56


100% hydrogen peroxide is needed to make very high end explosive, some furazans and furoxans, hexanitrobenzene, and some nitroureas, it is also needed for hydrogen peroxide rockets.



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[*] posted on 20-1-2004 at 02:50


I've tried both evaping and freezing and untill now didnt know whats wrong:

with evaporation temp control is prety hard on the burner(gas).Though since I only had a stainless steel pan didnt wan to risk anything.

I tried freezing it but all the 4 times I tried just frize the whole damn thing.

PS
You sure about peroxide in rocktes,russian torpdo's use 60% I think.

ALso syrian rockets use 60% mixed with diesel ethanol and some sugar :)
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