| Pages:
1
2 |
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Urea explorations
Since I have 50 pounds of urea on hand and not much use for it, I have recently been experimenting with it.
The first of my experiments led (I believe) to the production of ethyl carbamate and I'm not sure what else. I dissolved urea in boiling alcohol. I
let it cool after a few minutes of boiling and a thick mass of needlelike crystals formed - presumably unreacted urea. Then I heated the mixture again
and also added some ammonium nitrate. The ammonium nitrate slowly dissolved. When I let the mixture cool again, no crystals formed. Even when I cooled
it in the refrigerator, tried dropping in a seed crystal, and scraped the side of the jar, nothing formed. I'm guessing that I now have, more or less,
ethyl carbamate and alcohol.
But what of the ammonium nitrate? I tried adding some of this non-crystal-forming liquid to hydrochloric acid and introducing zinc dust. With NH4NO3
and HCl this gives NO2 fumes as well as hydrogen. There were no visible fumes and no scent of NO2.
I know it's rather silly of me to just start trying things when I could look them up, but I love the hands on parts of chemistry and I was
disconnected from the net at the time.
I also tried a few experiments with molten urea. Almost-anhydrous copper sulfate powder (copper sulfate that was at one point anhydrous but had been
stored long enough to turn a very pale blue) gave a beautiful deep blue color when added to molten urea. It also caused the urea to vigorously expel
ammonia. I wonder if the blue color was due to the well-known copper-ammonia complex. When I cleaned out the vessel the color faded as water washed
over the material and it seemed to become a cloudy, boring light blue. With pale-colored ferric ammonium sulfate, the urea again bubbled and gave off
ammonia and also yielded an intense brown-red color. With manganese chloride the urea gave off ammonia but did not provide any impressive colors.
Yellow potassium chromate eventually gave a green color and - you guessed it - caused the urea to decompose, giving off ammonia (quite likely CO2
also, but I can't smell that).
I know that urease, alkalinity, and acidity all catalyze the decomposition of urea. Do all transition metals do the same?
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Wouldn't it be nice...
Urea actually decomposes from heat to form cyanic acid (which readily polymerizes to cyanuric acid) and ammonia; depending on the reaction conditions
(pressure/temperature, etc.), ammelide, ammeline, and melamine may be produced as well (by successive substitution of OH by NH2 in cyanuric acid).
Hydrazine can be produced by the oxidation of urea with sodium hypochlorite. To quote "Engineering and Process Development", article "Properties,
Production, and Uses of Hydrazine" by James E. Troyan:
"Urea, in place of ammonia, is oxidized with hypochlorite in the presence of a stoichiometric amount of caustic soda. Synthesis proceeds according to
the equation NH2CONH2 + 2NaOH +2NaOCl --> N2H4.H2O + Na2CO3 + NaCl. Here the yield is 65-70% under optimum conditions."
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
NH2-CO-NH2 + NH2-CO-NH2 -heat-> NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH2 (biuret)+ NH3
NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH2 + NH2-CO-NH2 -heat-> NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH-CO-NH2 + NH3
NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH-CO-NH2 -heat-> (-NH-CO-)3 + NH3
NH2-CO-NH2 -heat-> HN=C=O + NH3 <--> HO-C#N +NH3
3 HO-C#N (cyanic acid) -heat-> (-N=C(OH)-)3 (cyanuric acid)
3 HN=C=O (isocyanic acid) -heat-> (-NH-CO-)3 (isocyanuric acid)
(-N=C(OH)-)3 <--> (-NH-CO-)3
enol-ceton equilibrium!
By the way:
NH2-CO-NH2 provides a perchlorate and a nitrate that are both more sensitive and powerful than the related NH4 perchlorate/nitrate!
Their VOD and brisance is satisfactory but perchlorate is better on both levels!
I theorise that
NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH2 would make nice higher density dinitrate and diperchlorate with better OB!
Thus higher VOD, brisances and maybe better or equal sensitivities!
NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH2.2HClO4 (N3H7C2Cl2O10)
NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH2.2HNO3 (N5H7C2O8)
vs
NH2-CO-NH2.HClO4 (N2H5CClO5)
NH2-CO-NH2.HNO3 (N3H5CO4)
(N3H7C2Cl2O10) > (N2H5CClO5) > NH4ClO4
(N5H7C2O8) > (N3H5CO4) > NH4NO3
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
I think that, apart from reactions of urea with ammonium and transition-metal salts, this reaction would work as well:
Ca(OH)2 + CO(NH2)2 -> CaCO3 + 2NH3.
This could be a source of high-grade, ahhydrous ammonia.
Also, the nitrogen in urea could oxidize metals to amides, imides and nitrides.
Example:
3Zn + CO(NH2)2 -> Zn3N2 + CO + 2H2
2Zn + CO(NH2)2 -> 2ZnNH + CO + 2H2
Zn + CO(NH2)2 -> Zn(NH2)2 + CO +2H2
Would anyone try it?
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
Sorry again!
 
Not equations 1 and 2, but 2 and 3!
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
Could guaniddinium nitrate (C(NH2)3(NO3)) form from urea (CO(NH2)2) and AN (NH4NO3)?
|
|
|
Mephisto
Chemicus Diabolicus
Posts: 294
Registered: 24-8-2002
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: swinging
|
|
The normal way to guanidine nitrate is from ammonium nitrate and dicyandiamide or calcium cyanamide. But guanidine salts can form from heating urea
with ammonium salts. And I know for sure, that guanidine (the liquid) can be synthesized from urea and nitric acid. But I don’t know how to get
practical guanidine nitrate from urea, without getting urea nitrate as result.
|
|
|
Iv4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 312
Registered: 28-5-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I can't get pure ammoniam nitrate but ammoniam sulfate and urea I can.Hopefully potasium nitrate too(to make the AN).
My resources are VERY limited(as in I dont have a proper scale..)but are there any tests I can do for ganendine still?
Edit:
Spling and please keep in mind pure is only relativly pure(fertilzer grade)
[Edited on 7-7-2003 by Iv4]
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
Quote (oridinally posted by Mephisto):
"guanidine (the liquid) can be synthesized from urea and nitric acid"
How is that? If guanidinium ion is made via urea + NH4+, then surely guanidine would be made via urea + NH3! Also, every nitrogen atom in guanidine is
reduced, in HNO3 the nitrogen atom is oxidized!
|
|
|
Iv4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 312
Registered: 28-5-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think that(using ammonia)would form ammonium cyanide.Besides I'm gusing you'd need to heat it to a point which would make the ammonia
evaporate.
Edit:
Damn I'm sorry I was thinking about ammonia in water(sorry drunk and probably wont have time soon).
But let me get this strait Urea and an ammonian salt will form a guanendine salt.But I'm thinking that there should be cyanide formed here becaus
it seems to react the same as any metal group in terms of cyanides,and sodium in that case would form sodium cyanide.Am I totaly of track?
[Edited on 7-7-2003 by Iv4]
|
|
|
Mephisto
Chemicus Diabolicus
Posts: 294
Registered: 24-8-2002
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: swinging
|
|
Sorry, but I couldn’t answer earlier.
The U.S. patent 3,009,949 looks quite interesting.
Urea + ammonium meta phosphate + water + 71% nitric acid --> guanidine nitrate + ...
To see the scanned patent-pages you need a program like AlternaTIFF.
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
So I guess that guanidine can be made by combining urea and (NH4)2SO4 and using a base like Ca(OH)2 to precipitate the sulfate ion (I guess a little
water is left)?
|
|
|
Mephisto
Chemicus Diabolicus
Posts: 294
Registered: 24-8-2002
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: swinging
|
|
In the U.S. patent 2,590,257 there is a similar process described: (see example 3, page 1/2)
Therefore guanidine is made by combining urea and a sulfonamide (but which?!), dissolving the reaction-product in ethanol and using potassium
hydroxide to precipitate the sulfate ion as potassium sulfate, getting an alcoholic solution of guanidine.
Note: I'm going on holiday next time, so I’ll can’t answer until ~ the 20th July.
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
No, cyanides don't form at temperatures that low.
So, since urea and ammonium salts form guanidinium salts, guanidinium nitrate (and guanidine nitrate by subsequent dehydration by conc. H2SO4) can be
made (avoiding Megalomania's mind- bending precursors) as follows :
1) (NH4)2SO4+2CO(NH2)2=> 2C(NH2)3SO4+2H2O
2) C(NH2)3SO4+Ca(OH)2=>Ca(SO4)+NHC(NH2)2+2H2O
3) NHC(NH2)2+HNO3=>C(NH2)3NO3
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
polymerisations with urea
a further exploration is to mix urea with formaldehyde, and a white soft polymer is formed. Wonder what would happen with acetaldehyde, or ketones
like acetone?
|
|
|
KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
Hazard to Others
Posts: 254
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Iran (pseudoislamic dictatorship of)
Member Is Offline
Mood: exuviating!
|
|
to Theoretic if you got Qsulfate just dissolve it with stoichiometric amount of Ca(NO3)2 filter....
or if you just have KNO3/NaNO3 you can use them but need to add alcohol to precipitate the sufate. u know the rest...
|
|
|
KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
Hazard to Others
Posts: 254
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Iran (pseudoislamic dictatorship of)
Member Is Offline
Mood: exuviating!
|
|
see US patents 4,535,185 & 5,041,662
they are kind of AN + urea => GN + H2O
there's a thread on E & W about it. look for <i>Guanidine nitrate...</i> the thread starter is Mr cool (Nick F)
to chemoleo: I <i>think</i> aceatldehyde forms insoluble polymers with urea in acidic conditions like how CH<sub>2</sub>O
does. I also <font color=purple size=4>guess</font> aqueous soloutions of urea and aldehydes / ketones in mold PH conditions are
equilibrating systems like this:
RCOR' + OC(NH<sub>2</sub>)<sub>2</sub> <s> ></s>
HOC(R)(R')NHCONH<sub>2</sub> <s>< ></s>
R(R')C=NCONH<sub>2</sub> +H<sub>2</sub>O
+ RCOR' <s> ></s> HOC(R)(R')NHCONHC(R)(R')OH
<s>< ></s> (R)(R')C=NCONHC(R)(R')OH +H<sub>2</sub>O
<s>< ></s> (R)(R')C=NCON=C(R)(R') +2H<sub>2</sub>O
edit: modified the tags that hadn't worked.
[Edited on 30-10-2003 by KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)]
|
|
|
Iv4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 312
Registered: 28-5-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for the links.Could it be carried out without the catalyst?
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
PJFF:
Quote:
"to Theoretic if you got Qsulfate just dissolve it with stoichiometric amount of Ca(NO3)2 filter....
or if you just have KNO3/NaNO3 you can use them but need to add alcohol to precipitate the sufate. u know the rest..."
If you use calcium nitrate, then a thick CaSO4 slug will be produced. A pain in a certain bodypart to filter...
What about (OK, this is completely new) urea + quicklime? I assume it would react as follows:
CO(NH2)2 + 2CaO => CaCO3 + Ca(NH2)2.
Could be then reacted:
Na2CO3 + Ca(NH2)2 =>2NaNH2 + CaCO3.
Who doesn't want easy sodium amide...
Another crazy idea of mine is to reduce the carbonyl in urea with atomic hydrogen and then treating the resulting compound wiht strong HCl solution
and ZnCl2 as a catalyst:
1)CO(NH2)2 + 2H => OHCH(NH2)2 (diaminemethanol).
2)OHCH(NH2)2 + 5HCl => CHCl3 + 2NH4Cl + H2O.
Chloroform from urea!
Reacting urea with alkali and alkali earth carbonates with urea (well known), reducing the resulting cyanate with iron, aluminium or charcoal, then
reducing the cyanide with atomic hydrogen to make methylamine (that's in solution, in a melt, using NaOH as a source of hydroxide and aluminium
as a reducing agent sodium methylamide, sodium aluminate and sodium oxide are made!).
And finally, dehydrating urea with SO3 to make NH2CN (cyanamide), then reducing cyanamide with atomic hydrogen to make diaminomethane. The latter
could be reacted with strong HCl solution to make DCM and NH4Cl...
OK, I'm getting carried away now, but the reactions sound too neat to be wrong... 
|
|
|
chloric1
International Hazard
Posts: 1070
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: GroupVII of the periodic table
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stoichiometrically Balanced
|
|
Acetamide attempt
Today I tried to make acetamide from acetic acid and urea and it falied. At 210 Celciuc, I had a reddish solid that smelled of sweaty feet. Acetamide
melts around 80 C and the mixture should have remained liquid. I raised the temperature over a period of 45 minutes. Did i heat too fast? Should I
maintained at lower heat to drive off carbamic acid? Anyone tried this method?
Fellow molecular manipulator
|
|
|
Nick F
Hazard to Others
Posts: 439
Registered: 7-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There was a patent mentioned, in which urea was reacted with sulphamide to produce guanidine sulphate:
SO2(NH2)2 + 2 CO(NH2)2 --> (C(NH2)3)2SO4
I just had a quick go at trying a similar reaction, using the commonly available sulphamic acid instead of sulphamide:
HSO3NH2 + CO(NH2)2 --> C(NH2)3HSO4
Sulphamic acid (3g) and urea (2g, a slight excess) were mixed, and heated gently over a gas flame. When nearly all had become molten, a brief but
significant effervescence occured, lasting maybe 30s. During this time, the colour (which had been bright orange due to an indicator contained in the
sulphamic acid, which was obtained as a descaler) changed to a blue/green. A small sample was removed and allowed to cool. It remained blue/green, so
the colour change was not temperature dependant (like ZnO is, for example), and when added to some dil. HCl, an orange colour was obtained, showing
that the indicator was not decomposed. The colour change therefore indicated some sort of reaction.
After approx. 30mins heating I got bored and allowed it to cool. Approx. 50mL of warm water was added, and the blue, toffee-like mass dissolved slowly
(Edit: while it was dissolving, the orange colour returned, but now the solution appears mostly colourless).
BUT, it did not all dissolve. There is a substantial quantity of a buff-coloured, fine precipitate. I'm letting it settle at the moment, before I
do more playing around with the solid and solution...
So, something has happened, at least...
[Edited on 9-12-2003 by Nick F]
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
It seems that red gunk just doesn't stay out of the flask of an organic chemist...
Sodium acetate heated with ammonium chloride also make acetamide, and I also think this method has less potential to make vile, polymeric red gunk.
|
|
|
KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
Hazard to Others
Posts: 254
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Iran (pseudoislamic dictatorship of)
Member Is Offline
Mood: exuviating!
|
|
Theoretic: that's no different from heating ammonium acetate. where the urea? it's UREA explorations after all. ya sure the amide/nitride
reactions work? they seem impossible.
I read US 3,009,949 Mephisto was talking about. CO(NH<sub>2</sub> <sub>2</sub> + NH<sub>4</sub>PO<sub>3</sub> <s> ></s>
C(NH<sub>2</sub><sub>3</sub>H<sub>2</sub>PO<sub>4</sub>
I'm thinking one can modify the process for NQ by replacing ammonium metaphosphate with a mix of metaphosphoric acid & ammonium nitrate.
after melting and keeping for 1 hour let cool. add the remaining solid in conc sulfuric acid then pour on water. wash the crystals with water (biuret,
phosphoric acid(s), unreacted urea & ammonium nitrate are removed) then boil in hot water (the traces of nitrourea will disappear). ya can easily
make metaphosphoric acid from almost any conc of phosphoric acid or ammonium phosphoate fertilizer by heating it to redness
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
PJFF:
I think it can work, because ammonia can also oxidize metals at high temperatures, so why can't urea do it? The urea molecule can deprotonate,
but electron transfer with subsequent neat cleavage of the urea molecule into amide and carbamide anions seems more probable. Either one of them
should happen, since hydrogen bonded to nitrogen should behave no differently from as if it was in ammonia. If deprotonation does occur, then electron
transfer and again cleavage seems the option. Carbamide/carbimide ions don't seem probable...
The reactions with quicklime and slaked lime are alkalisys, which urea easily undergoes in aqueouis solutions...
|
|
|
Friedrich Wöhler
Harmless
Posts: 42
Registered: 7-2-2004
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
HYDRAZINE ??
It should be able (I read) to add *CO*-group from urea on carbonyl-building metals such as nickel. It should be possible in solution at low temp. If
this info is correctly, there would be a childish simple method building hydrazine.
4 NH2-CO-NH2 + Ni ------> 4 N2H4 + Ni(CO)4
[Edited on 11-2-2004 by Friedrich Wöhler]
Kein Schwanz ist so hart wie das Leben.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
