IrC
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Chemical Compatibility and Safe Storage
I imagine this could be considered a newbie question but after hours of searching I find a mass of conflicting data. No I did not do a bunch of UTFSE
for similar topics here because I am sure I would not find the specific data on ferric chloride and thus this post to ask this plus ask if others
considered working on a new, realistic and useful database.
I was trying to figure out what not to box with my 3 pounds of Iron chloride hexahydrate; ferric trichloride hexahydrate in fine powder form. Looking
at many MSDS forms they range from 2 to 3 on health indicating to me they do not agree on even that. Under storage all of them agree - do not store
with incompatible substances. Great. What substances I ask. Searching hundreds of links lead me to the desperation of asking here as I prefer to
search and find out rather than bothering others with it but so far nada. The heat generated from making my PCB etchant by mixing with water is the
obvious one but not the criteria I am looking for.
So I think a database better than what you can find online would be helpful. I was thinking in terms of what if I had a fire. Clearly 10 LBS of Zinc
dust does not fit in the box with 5 LBS of sulfur dust, as the containers melt you end up with 15 LBS of hell on earth, plus whatever else they took
up with them. With limited space I came to the conclusion that the Zn should be feet away from the S and likewise metal dusts like Al or Zn should be
feet away from KNO3, just to keep them from reacting if the place ever did go up in smoke. Thereby minimizing the danger of out of control reactions
adding to the fire were it to ever occur. Not hard to find data or know it anyway from experience of say not storing things which would start fires
such as glycerin and permanganate, and so on.
However knowing the release of HCl from my etchant powder as well as how corrosive it is, as well as keep away from water, etc., does not give me a
guide as to which box should it be stored in, i.e., what things should not be in the box in other containers.
I know this sounds like a simple question I should be able to find the answer searching on my own, but hours of looking only produce the same short
lists none of which list my iron chloride. Looking for the chemical itself only generates the same useless MSDS's.
I think a database of such information would be very good to have here but one that does better than what is available now. What is the result of
mixing X with Y? This is covered only slightly for a few chemicals in the majority of lists I find online. Yes I could buy that book but they want too
much for it and I just want places to quickly go for very simple to read, comprehensive information. Do not mix sulfides with acid. Why? We know, H2S;
yet these kinds of search results are very hard to find, most only say don't do it, few say why or what the result is. Of course I do not mean only
the sulfides and acid, I mean we need a bigger list out here, one which covers more and also covers why, what to expect, the reason for the danger,
the resulting products, and so on. I would think it sounds like I ask for too much but really, chemistry is an old science you would think these
things which keep us safe would be at least as easy to find as recipes for things that make us unsafe. Or am I asking too much. So far only one source
gave this information, helpful yet possibly not very complete.
Incompatibilities:
Metals, allyl chloride, sodium, potassium. From the link below, so far this source seems to provide better data on chemical hazards than most others.
I should mention this was for the liquid solution (etchant) not the pure powder, better than nothing I guess.
http://www.hvchemical.com/msds-online.htm
[Edited on 4-4-2010 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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entropy51
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Googling chemical incompatibility turns up many lists, such as this one.
But I suppose you want a list of every chemical in the world, and every other chemical that it doesn't get along with. Good
luck with that. Try one of the major handbooks such as Bretherick's Reactive Chemical Hazards, which is available online, if one knows where to look.
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IrC
International Hazard
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Thanks, I actually used those keywords and had found the PDF you gave already. Also that was the book I mentioned, forgot the name but 5 years ago was
looking at buying it but they wanted too much. Now I need to keep searching to find where the link you mentioned is. I understand you not wanting to
post it. I will keep searching. However I still think a section where people could add things they have learned would be good, maybe something Bromic
could add to his book project?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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BromicAcid
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Here:
http://www.lbl.gov/ehs/chsp/html/storage.shtml
A decent resource. Most things can be stored near one another legally but it is up to the chemist to decide how to segregate and that varies by
instituation. What is mandated however is that all oxidizers must be separated from flammable materials, many states have specific statues relating
to this due to fire codes. The DOT has standards regarding this for shipping hardous materials and has a standard compatibility chart, you can see an
example of it here:
http://www.fourstarcargo.com/hazmat.aspx
However, the rub is, like I said before, most of the storage is not regulated. Best bet is to have storage for each hazard class separately because
more often than not one of the main hazards addressed if someone enters your lab is improper storage / incompatible chemicals stored together.
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IrC
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Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  | | But I suppose you want a list of every chemical in the world, and every other chemical that it doesn't get along with. Good
luck with that. |
Not really, there are too many. I usually only deal with inorganics so the list is at least reasonable. Not to mention the bulk are easy to figure
out, it was the three pounds of ferric chloride I was mostly concerned with. If the MSDSs stated with each listing a short list of what they were
considering when they stated store away from incompatible chemicals it would be fairly easy to come up with a list on your own instead of buying a 400
dollar book. What I really want is the two volume 7th edition of Bretherick's. One thing which came to mind right off is treating the dry etchant
chemical as if it were an acid as far as compatibility issues are concerned, even if dry, as any moisture in the air getting through a small leak is
going to produce hydrochloric acid vapors. Applies also to the simple issues such as do not put it near metals, or bottles with metal lids, and so on.
Thanks Bromic, I had been to the first link you gave a couple days ago. I have not looked at your book project in a while, I hope you do add a section
on compatibilities even if abbreviated if you have not already done so.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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franklyn
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I recall reading recently on observations of chemical hygiene that
calls into question categorization and compartmentalizing chemicals
by class , especially those that belong to more than a single class.
Identifying the properties specific to every material which presents
a reactive hazard is the safest approach.
Bretherricks's remains the most authoritative place to search
http://hse.nigc.ir/utils/getFile.aspx?Idn=4575
Usful backup source.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg
Quickly informative
http://hazmap.nlm.nih.gov
http://webwiser.nlm.nih.gov/knownSubstanceSearch.do
Compound Properties
http://www.chemexper.com
Compound specific MSDS
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/#What
MSDS Databases
http://www.ehs.cornell.edu/msds/msds.cfm
http://www.msdssearch.com/DBLinksN.htm
http://hazard.com/msds/index.php
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Formatik
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Fire and explosion hazards have been better described on some incompatability references and literature. But detailed information is lacking for
poisons. Some lists indeed don't state why to mix some things and might simply state the incompatability. It could be argued that, well why not just
include every little tiny detail that would fill up a work too large to be practical? But the gravity of omitting that information doesn't allow you
ascertain the seriousness of the risk.
Like some incompatability lists state formaldehyde and hydrochloric acid are incompatible and don't say why. The result of these two interacting gives
rise to bis(chloromethyl)ether. This is easily hydrolyzed, but it is a methyl ether variant of mustard and a proven carcinogen.
As what forms phosgene (like some chlorohydrocarbons) on combustion, so then a general hazard may be given "may form toxic combustion products of...",
not leaving one with high quality information. It might be useful to familiarize oneself with a lot of ways COCl2, HCN, H2S, Cl2, DMSO4, etc. common
basic strong poisons can form. References like Beilstein can be used to find that kind of information. That would help with ideas in compatability,
and potential incidental toxic gas liberation while conducting a reaction.
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franklyn
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Found it again very useful overview
Chemical Storage Myths vs reality
http://www.hss.energy.gov/healthsafety/wshp/chem_safety/chem...
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Formatik
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I think some of those kind of loose storage conditions are fine for labs and universities. But I think the amateur should be more cautious not to
display chemicals so readily. This because you never know who might come over to your home (e.g. kids, strangers, etc). And in the worst case
scenario, if even a mild earthquake occurs, and say some glass containers break, some chemicals could mix and then a fire or explosion, etc. results.
Especially for the latter reason (being without chemical lockers) I find it wise to store chemicals categorized with compatibles in boxes which have
padding in them e.g. styrofoam or plastic.
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