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Author: Subject: The essential oil
Betty Ford
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[*] posted on 15-1-2004 at 15:56
The essential oil


This subject matter has been discussed in many other forums previously to this, and after much research I have discovered that sassafras seems to be completely unobtainable in the u.k. The nearest I have come to locating this precious oil is in the form of an alcohol extract- which I believe after reading posts on said subject available, but with the safrole taken out. Is it true that one can no longer go down this route for exotic soap making or are there any internet sites left in the u.k that can still offer sassafras in its pure form? Essentially, should I give up and find another hobby??- please pm me if you can help.
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guaguanco
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[*] posted on 15-1-2004 at 16:03


Quote:
Originally posted by Betty Ford
The nearest I have come to locating this precious oil is in the form of an alcohol extract- which I believe after reading posts on said subject available, but with the safrole taken out. Is it true that one can no longer go down this route for exotic soap making or are there any internet sites left in the u.k that can still offer sassafras in its pure form? Essentially, should I give up and find another hobby??- please pm me if you can help.

I suspect a search through google will yield suppliers that will sell you raw, unmodified oil of sassafras. Whether or not this material is legal in the UK I couldn't tell you.
Should you wish to isolate the safrole (to make extremely exotic ... soap) there are references on the web to tell you how to do that.
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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[*] posted on 15-1-2004 at 16:22
If you are really and honestly and truly interested in chemistry....Forge Onward!


You will find that there are many ways to skin a cat, and a skinless cat is a thing of beauty.

Sassafras oil is very difficult to procure. There seems to have been some difficulty with society's seedier element using it for some purpose other than its original intent. That will discourage about 95% of those hapless individuals who try to make whatever they make with it, because Johnny Lawman knows that those 95% are just following some shady internet recipe.

The real thorn-in-the-side to John Law has always been clandestine chemists, usually ones with at least some university education. Those guys are simply impossible to stop. Because the beauty of chemistry is that fact that you can make ANYTHING, out of just about anything, IF you are clever enough, and put the effort into researching methods. When John Law closes off one route, those shady individuals just go a different way.

A chemical "recipe" is just like a set of directions, it WILL get you where you want to go. But if you REALLY want to get somewhere, get off the beaten path, and maybe have a few adventures, you need to take the time to learn to use a map and compass. Then no-one can stop you from getting where you want to go, only slow you down or make you work harder to get there.

You will be able to check a map before you leave to see if someone gave you bad directions (there are lots of nasty people in the world that like to do that). And if you do get into trouble you can often get yourself out.


I don't know if you just thought you would impress all your friends making and maybe selling this particular specialty soap that you mentioned. But its not as easy as that, to a chemist it is easy as pie, to a non-chemist, it could be fatal (really!)

But if you really love the stuff and want to try making all sorts of special soaps, and you aren't afraid of books or hard work....take up the hobby and you'll soon be rolling in all the different types of soap your little heart desires.




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Betty Ford
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[*] posted on 15-1-2004 at 17:07


My interests have come a long way from the basic impulse of people trying to make either a fast buck or impress there friends. It`s like why do people climb mountains?- A greater interest has evolved from my initial endevours but as I know so little still, I have to ask these questions. Thankyou for you humbling comments, at least I’m learning that there are many paths to choose- and that a skinnless cat is a beautiful sight.
…..Back to the maps and compass….
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embezzler
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[*] posted on 29-1-2004 at 14:33
it is


it is available online look for a us company that deals with magic and essential oils do no order too much. due to the safrole content it is a watched substance but that wouldnt be of any interest to you would it......it is also quite expensive.
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Quantum
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[*] posted on 29-1-2004 at 20:55


Why is it watched? Is it a mind altering substance?



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Hermes_Trismegistus
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[*] posted on 29-1-2004 at 22:49


Embezzler, Betty was asking about the UK

Quantum.......sassy's used for making exotic soaps.

don't eat soap, you won't get high, you'll get sick.(UTFSE):P




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embezzler
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[*] posted on 30-1-2004 at 03:14
sassafrass


in response to quantum..it is not in itself a mind altering substance but the safrole in it can be used as a precourser for some of the nastys....to h-t the soaps are real nice, not surprising that it can not be bought in the uk but it can be bought INTO the uk in small quantities.
dont eat the soap safrole is also rated as a toxic chemical cant remember if it was described as carcinogenic or not.

[Edited on 19-1-2005 by vulture]
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tom haggen
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[*] posted on 23-10-2004 at 21:05


Safrole is a List I chemical due to the fact that it is a precursor to a schedule I or II controlled substance. Unfortunately this resource has been quite abruptly cut off. I've been doing some research, and haven't really seen any back doors to obtaining this chemical other that fractional distillation of the natural oils. But those seem to be hard to obtain also. Judging on the fact that most of The MDMA in the US seems to be imported I'm sure that these oils will be impossible to obtain in the states. Furthermore, no shady chemists have posted any methods of a back route around the regular method of obtaining this chemical. Although, that is just a matter of time:cool:



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FrankRizzo
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[*] posted on 25-10-2004 at 14:14


Hmm...what tasty beverage used to contain sassafras? If you do a bit of research, you'll find whatever you desire.
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mycoguy
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[*] posted on 14-1-2005 at 00:58


Frank, you'll also find out pretty soon that many of these flavorings are safrole-free, or artificial flavorings. Most likely safrole-free, if any thing.
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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[*] posted on 14-1-2005 at 08:53
Ah HA!


I knew it!

It was only a matter of time.

After seeing the dramatic rise in price of some other common lab reagents I decided to invest in some that might experience a substantial rise in value.

I purchased 2 kg of refined chinese sassy oil with a particularly high safrole content ~98.5 from the now defunct "e-ssential oils" which used to operate out of Vancouver Canada.

That was almost 2 years ago, I really thought that I might have my head up my ass at the time I made that investment.

I'm certainly glad to see that price is finally rising and availability is slipping.

Hermes.




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HRH_Prince_Charles
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[*] posted on 14-1-2005 at 10:01


I believe that a licence is now required to sell this oil in Canada.

http://www.urbanlegend.ca/stories/sassafras.shtml

[Edited on 14-1-2005 by HRH_Prince_Charles]
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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[*] posted on 14-1-2005 at 15:03
Hmm


Well I guess I'll just have to make a private sale now won't I.



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Icarus
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[*] posted on 14-1-2005 at 17:29
Religion


Sassafras is also an essential component of religious worship as a Wiccan.

I would assume that, the Wiccans among you, have strict laws in your countries protecting your right to religious observance. :)
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Darkfire
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[*] posted on 14-1-2005 at 17:47


Sasafras plants are fairly common and i know at least one person on this board has taken tree root to the finished product. If safrole isnt your way, small scale extraction of black peper, then desctructive boiling with dilute NaOH, then oxydation with KMnO4 will yeild you the aldahyde.



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chochu3
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[*] posted on 15-1-2005 at 00:00


You may wanna to look into some plant sources such as juniper virginia, camphor, or illicium v. For more info find a wb archive of rhodiums site.
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[*] posted on 25-1-2005 at 07:14
MD-propenylbenzene, yummy.


Well Betty, so much for removing water from esters...
I am also in the UK.
We in the UK are safrole starved - but there are other ways.
Importing has not been a problem, though steam distillation of the leaves of Piper Auritum is quite doable, though I haven't tried it yet.
I was working on a project for the removal of essential oil from the roots of Sassafras Albidum grown hydroponically, by extracting the hydroponic tank water with solvents - I'll let you know if that works! (I mean intelligently, obviously exracted water will be properly cleansed before put back into the tank)I believe it will work, but that is still ongoing! It will be a safrole factory!! The plant will be kept under a grolight (thats a 400w high pressure sodium, bubba!), and pruned to remain a shrub, not a tree.
I've been growing using hydroponics for years, and some of that Sassafras essential oil of the roots MUST end up in the tank water, how can it not work? Either way, hydroponics produces the most roots anyway, so if the tank water produces dismal yields of safrole (I mean, essential oil, root beer flavouring...) then I will steam distill the roots, though it will kill the plant. But hey, his sacrifice will not be without purpose.
I'm sorry, but the grignard route to safrole in a pain in the butt.

[Edited on 2-13-2005 by Polverone]




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phillipwolfe
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[*] posted on 26-1-2005 at 22:21


http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/s/sassaf20.html
---Synonyms---Sassafras varifolium. Laurus Sassafras. Sassafrax. Sassafras radix.
---Parts Used---Bark-root and the root, pith.
---Habitat---Eastern United States, from Canada to Florida, and Mexico.

The name 'Sassafras,' applied by the Spanish botanist Monardes in the sixteenth century, is said to be a corruption of the Spanish word for saxifrage
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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 02:39


Does anyone here know of someone who sells sassafras seeds? The plant would certainly grow here in New Zealand. Also black pepper (piper nigrum) seeds, seeing as there is a related native plant in New Zealand that, unfortunately, is unlikely to have much safrole in it, but probably has sufficient kavalactone to be usable as a substitute for Polynesian kava.
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CycloKnight
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 13:23
Sassafras Albidum


Sold by Sandeman Seeds.

http://www.sandemanseeds.com/acatalog/Trees_S.html




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Darkfire
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[*] posted on 2-2-2005 at 23:01


Quote:
Originally posted by JohnWW
Does anyone here know of someone who sells sassafras seeds? The plant would certainly grow here in New Zealand. Also black pepper (piper nigrum) seeds, seeing as there is a related native plant in New Zealand that, unfortunately, is unlikely to have much safrole in it, but probably has sufficient kavalactone to be usable as a substitute for Polynesian kava.
Piper negrum yeilds pipironal the aldhyde route to mdma. After Cleavage with NaOH and oxydation with kmno4.



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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 3-2-2005 at 14:14
Anyone care to translate from German?


You keep saying that, so I am going to put this here.

This is the original article on piperonal from oxidation (and much more) of piperic acid, AFAIK, which hasn't been translated anywhere that I've seen. The oft-footnoted Ber. one, 23 2372 (1890) doesn't seem to say anything about isolation of piperonal, they are more interested in the other products of the cleavage of the K piperate. If even piperonal was formed in that one. But I don't speak German so you might want to look in Gallica for yourself.

BTW, in the late 80's I was required to purchase a booklet written by some professor, it contained syntheses of various things. One of the syntheses was piperonal from piperine. Full details and a couple of different routes were given. PCC, THF, KMnO4, and a common PTC were used in those two routes, I don't remember which one was slightly best.

We never did that experiment, and that booklet was lost during A Series of Unfortunate Events. Even many years ago I was unable to find a copy anywhere. Does anyone else remember this booklet?

So anyways, this is Ann. 152, 25-58 (1869) This was made from old photocopies of microfilm, so it looks bad. Anything synthetically useful here, from KMnO4 or otherwise?

Attachment: piperine.djvu (614kB)
This file has been downloaded 2015 times

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CherrieBaby
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[*] posted on 11-3-2005 at 01:47


CycloKnight said "steam distillation of the leaves of Piper Auritum"
- forget it. Piper Auritum needs a greenhouse to grow in the UK. In the height of summer, your greenhouse will get very hot and the Piper auritum may need to be watered twice a day on the hottest days. You should have a system of automatic ventillation on hot days. You will need a heating system on those cold winter days. You may need artificial lighting on those short winter days. Piper auritum is great for gardeners who like troublesome plants or live in a tropical or Mediterranean climate with mild winters. It is useless for chemists. Betty would be better off growing Sassafras - at least can survive the UK climate.

To germinate Sassafras seeds you need cold stratification (2-5C) for at least a month (2 are better) in moist conditions (too moist and fungi will kill the seed). Tricky.

Betty Ford - "sassafras seems to be completely unobtainable in the U.K."
- I'm sure there are people who can get it but you probably need a legitimate reason. It is not illegal but the essential oil suppliers operate a cartel and are strongly encouraged by the government to "self-regulate"; which means being very careful about who they sell to. Very much like the situation with chemicals (but worse). Sassafras oil is NOT illegal and, so, perfectly legitimate to own.

According to Dutch police reports the majority of MDMA is still made from piperonyl acetone. The precursor being imported from the far east in mislabelled containers at a price about twice that of the market. All their sassy oil clampdown hasn't stopped the street price of 'pills' from falling to just a third of the price of 10 years ago. (the bulk price has fallen even further).

[Edited on 11-3-2005 by CherrieBaby]
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[*] posted on 19-3-2005 at 13:14


You need to Google a bit harder... A safrole containing oil (90%+) is available from an aromatherepy supplier in the UK... 30ml for about £8 and they have an online ordering system so you don't need to even call them or anything. You'd need to spend about 80 quid for a decent amount which is a little steep relatively speaking. Possibly ordering 10 bottles might be a bit hot, who knows.
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