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Author: Subject: The trouble with neodymium...
blogfast25
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[*] posted on 8-6-2015 at 11:02


Fingers crossed here too, Mr HS! Very sensible approach, BTW...



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DalisAndy
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[*] posted on 10-6-2015 at 16:34


Hey I may have found something interesting: http://www.sciencefairadventure.com/Neodymium.aspx

And then this:
http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2015/GC/C5GC00...

[Edited on 11-6-2015 by DalisAndy]




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[*] posted on 10-6-2015 at 17:25


Would it be possible to use a chelating agent to either remove iron or the neodymium? I know EDTA has been used for Uranium poisoning, uranium and neodymium are in the same column too.



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[*] posted on 10-6-2015 at 17:39


Chelating agents like EDTA are quite non-discriminating: they form strong complexes with many (most, in fact) non-alkali metals, including Fe and Nd.

U and Nd being in the same column is really a meaningless coincidence. Nd belongs to the First f-block (Lanthanides), which show very strong inter-group chemical similarities. U belongs to the Second f-block (Actinides), which show also strong inter-group chemical similarities (but less so than Lanthanides).

Due to their electronic configuration structures, both groups also show similarities between each other.

Similarity between U and Nd however is really quite weak. Yes, both form EDTA complexes but then so do... erm... Al and Pb! U forms oxidation states from +2 to +6 (but +3 isn't very stable), Nd only does +3. U forms very stable complex anions and cations, Nd only forms complexed Nd(+3) cations.

By contrast, the Fe/Nd separation methods presented and tested to destruction in this thread are simple to use and require mostly only OTC chemicals. That's why we chose them...


[Edited on 11-6-2015 by blogfast25]




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DalisAndy
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[*] posted on 10-6-2015 at 20:46


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Chelating agents like EDTA are quite non-discriminating: they form strong complexes with many (most, in fact) non-alkali metals, including Fe and Nd.

U and Nd being in the same column is really a meaningless coincidence. Nd belongs to the First f-block (Lanthanides), which show very strong inter-group chemical similarities. U belongs to the Second f-block (Actinides), which show also strong inter-group chemical similarities (but less so than Lanthanides).

Due to their electronic configuration structures, both groups also show similarities between each other.

Similarity between U and Nd however is really quite weak. Yes, both form EDTA complexes but then so do... erm... Al and Pb! U forms oxidation states from +2 to +6 (but +3 isn't very stable), Nd only does +3. U forms very stable complex anions and cations, Nd only forms complexed Nd(+3) cations.

By contrast, the Fe/Nd separation methods presented and tested to destruction in this thread are simple to use and require mostly only OTC chemicals. That's why we chose them...


[Edited on 11-6-2015 by blogfast25]

would the other method work? Using CaF instead of NH3HF?




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[*] posted on 11-6-2015 at 06:29


Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy  

would the other method work? Using CaF instead of NH3HF?


Huh? CaF<sub>2</sub> (NOT CaF), aka Fluorite, is water insoluble.




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[*] posted on 12-6-2015 at 05:33


From Andy's first link:

"Neodymium is found most often in nature in Misch metal, monazite sand, and the mineral bastnasite. Due to the fact that these minerals and compounds also contain lanthanides and other rare earth elements, it is difficult to isolate neodymium. The process of neodymium isolation and extraction is highly complex; due to the complexity of the process, neodymium is never isolated on a small scale laboratory basis."

We'll see about that...

I'll show them! I'll show them all!!
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 12-6-2015 at 06:21


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
From Andy's first link:

"Neodymium is found most often in nature in Misch metal, [...]


HAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHHHAHHHAAHHHAHAHAH!




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[*] posted on 12-6-2015 at 09:20


Totally missed that one! I was suspicious of the 'science fair' website though.
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[*] posted on 12-6-2015 at 10:14


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Totally missed that one! I was suspicious of the 'science fair' website though.


"And here, next to my native gold and silver, is some of that native Misch metal y'all wanted to see! I bought it off an anonymous Craiglist seller, years ago."




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[*] posted on 13-6-2015 at 12:47


Quantification of legitimacy involves an index of illegitimate conjunctions and its <->it's errors within a given paper. :)



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[*] posted on 21-8-2015 at 07:54


How would one isolate the fluoride salt from the bisulfate?



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[*] posted on 21-8-2015 at 09:53


What fluoride from what bisulfate? I don't think anyone ever used bisulfate in this thread. Clarify what you mean.


While I'm here, I'll mention that I'm gearing up to get back on track with this experiment. I sincerely hope to have something to report by the end of the weekend.
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[*] posted on 25-8-2015 at 07:06


How did you guys separate the neodymium fluoride and ammonium sulfate?



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[*] posted on 25-8-2015 at 08:09


NdF3 is insoluble in water while (NH4)SO4 is soluble in water as well as NH4F and Nd2(SO4)3.



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[*] posted on 25-8-2015 at 10:12


A fact you would have known had you (gasp!) READ THE THREAD.

[Edited on 8-25-2015 by MrHomeScientist]
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[*] posted on 25-8-2015 at 12:31


Reading this thread takes more than the standard 8 second attention span of modern people.

Please condense it to a photo, a few smileys and an instant answer (plus a 'like' button) to make it suitable for SmartPhone users.

Something like this :-

lead gold.jpg - 10kB

Magnet -> Pure Neodymium ;) :) <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11607315/Humans-have-shorter-attention-span-than-goldfish-thanks-to-smartphones.html" target="_blank">Like</a>




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[*] posted on 30-8-2015 at 13:44


Haha, indeed. I'm sure the information will be condensed into a more readable format. Until then, it is the responsibility of the reader not to be lazy. :)



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[*] posted on 12-2-2016 at 13:46


maybe you can percipitate iron using aluminum you will end up with Nd III+ and Al III+ then you add NaOH aluminum will stay in solution as NaAl(OH)4 and neodymium will percipitate as Nd(OH)3......teoreticaly

[Edited on 12-2-2016 by CrossxD]
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[*] posted on 12-2-2016 at 14:18


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
From Andy's first link:

"Neodymium is found most often in nature in Misch metal, [...]


HAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHHHAHHHAAHHHAHAHAH!


I had to laugh when I read that as well. I have a few 1 lb ingots of it, they are amazingly clean considering they were dug up in mines. My biggest dilemma is figuring out what process underground shapes them into such nice ingot appearing forms. Anyone know the answer to this?




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[*] posted on 12-2-2016 at 15:19


Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
My biggest dilemma is figuring out what process underground shapes them into such nice ingot appearing forms. Anyone know the answer to this?


You're wrong. They grow on trees, actually.




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[*] posted on 11-7-2016 at 08:17


I recently joined the fun in extracting Neodymium compounds from rare earth magnets. I have had decent success in isolating Nd sulfate, and oxalate (the easy one).

My initial process was the sulfuric acid separation. The magnet was a small 1" cube that had no nickel plating on it. It was old and the plating had a chip in it, and so over the last 5 years had completely come free from the plating.

Like a noob I forgot to weigh the magnet before proceeding.

1. Dissolved in 30% H2SO4. No heating was involved in an attempt to limit any possible reaction with boron. This took about a week to fully dissolve.

2. I oxidized the resulting mixture with 30% H2O2 until no further reaction could be seen.

3. I added a 2 molar solution of NaOH to the magnet soup and precipitated the insoluble hydroxides.

4. Washed the hydroxides with distilled water.

5. After filtering the hydroxides off, I reacted the brown sludge with 50% Sulfuric acid. It dissolved but it left a very fine tan precipitated of something. I was not sure whether this was an Nd compound or an iron compound. It was completely insoluble in water. So I used some conc. HCl and obtained a bright yellow solution. This suggests iron chloride I believe.

Based on that my guess as to what the insoluble compound was is Iron hydroxide sulfate (Fe(OH)(SO4)). I could be completely wrong about that though.

6. I tested the supernatant for iron using salicylic acid (I did not have any Potassium Ferricyanide). It was positive. I then tested for Nd using oxalic acid. Also positive.

7. I boiled the supernatant which darkened in color upon heating which is characteristic of iron compounds being thermochromic. After removing nearly 500mL of water, I started to see some pink crystals. I filtered these off and dried them. The crystals were not quite the right color (under any lighting conditions) and some recrystallizing is needed.




20160710_194720.jpg - 71kB 20160711_003332.jpg - 166kB



The Nd oxalate 1 was first oxidized to remove any iron(II). The Nd oxalate 2 was not oxidized and resulted in a very yellow powder of Nd oxalate.


[Edited on 7-11-2016 by Atrum]




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[*] posted on 11-7-2016 at 09:41


@Atrum:

Welcome to the club.




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[*] posted on 11-7-2016 at 14:21


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
@Atrum:

Welcome to the club.


Thanks.

I was wondering if you could provide any insight to the precipitate I mentioned in my post?

Did you come across anything like that during your processes?




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[*] posted on 11-7-2016 at 16:47


Quote: Originally posted by Atrum  


I was wondering if you could provide any insight to the precipitate I mentioned in my post?

Did you come across anything like that during your processes?


Quote:
5. After filtering the hydroxides off, I reacted the brown sludge with 50% Sulfuric acid. It dissolved but it left a very fine tan precipitated of something. I was not sure whether this was an Nd compound or an iron compound. It was completely insoluble in water. So I used some conc. HCl and obtained a bright yellow solution. This suggests iron chloride I believe.


Most likely a neodymium sulphate. Many of us have noticed there are several forms of Nd sulphate hydrate.

To check, isolate precipitate and treat it with strong NH3 and some time. Wash carefully and dissolve precipitate in HCl (NOT sulphuric), then test solution with oxalic acid for Nd. I'd put good money on a positive Nd test, executed that way.

[Edited on 12-7-2016 by blogfast25]




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