| Pages:
1
2
3 |
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A Chemopolic Question
Hello fellow whatever,
I am not really up to the dilettante level of chemical understanding. However I do somewhat perceive the, often unexamined and unnoticed significance
of a sort of nonspecific chemical influence, like an ambient chemical zeitgeist beneath our lives and culture. Along these lines the impact of the
current recreational molecules comes into play and has a political effect. A perfect example of this would be the near perfect synchronization of the
rise of coca derived recreational substances and the reemergence of superficiality, as typified by disco and the Reagan administration. And of
course the abandonment of LSD and other psychedelic compounds. Compounds which demand a certain amount of attention, if not seriousness, even in
their total abuse, as a cheap ticket to Disneyland, as apposed to a technology, no matter how cumbersome and laden with it's own inescapable problems,
that allows an alternate set of perceptions and brings into question many of the cultural assumptions that one is born into. Now of course we are
seeing the tail end of the return of what was a bad idea to begin with--speed--now adays that usually means methl or coke. Though once upon a time
amphetamines where still a prescription for things other than attention deficit. Along with all the hippy, alternative, life-embracing drugs
(shrooms etc.), there was also this quite diverse set of drugs that were being prescribed that were all different flavors of speed. I remember an
overweight friend who got a pill call obadream or some thing that sounded like that, which contained two different amphetamines a tranquilizer and a
full days supply of vitamins. At any rate it took a good decade or so for the population of recreational molecule users to figure out that, as was
said at the time, "speed kills". I am sure some of you remember the ad campaigns that featured the likes of Janis Joplin (alcohol got her) pleading
for her fans a least not to shoot speed. And as I remember the message pretty much got across, and despite a proliferation of black beauties and
other later low grade stuff, the cultural bias was firmly in the, see-things-in-a-new-light "learn from an experience" as apposed to the hyper
bandwidth with zero or less content that is speed. I won't get onto an anti speed rant, but please understand that the question I am about to ask,
is out of a desire to understand something about the drift of the cultural bias toward specific recreational molecules that seems anomalous to me.
That is, the natural progression of the larger segment of society that is now using molecules other than alcohol, caffeine, and sugar --
recreationally, represent a sort of third wave of people, many of who's extra molecular activity are not based in the kind of intellectual
exploration and existential movements that were the bias in the initial flowering of a largely botanical second wave of drug users whos focus was
largely claimed to be experiential supplementation. Now it seems that our current third wave of drug users, is due for a collective crash when
they finally reinvent the wheel and figure out that speed sucks. Those with a taste for the titilation afforded by faster and louder but shallower
and stupider, will not seek consolation in experiential religion or psychological practices or fads, but in analgesics. I have had quite a bit of
exposure to different analgesics in my life. I have medical prescriptions that would probably make me a target for a brake-in if it became known. I
am not bragging I am in a continual struggle between pain relief and really not wanting all this stuff in my body. Anyhow during my life I have been
exposed to many different pain relieving substances. Well I have pain, so I tend to keep current on the political mindset about pain relief
because it really affects me. For instance, for many years, before I reached my current need, I made due with hydrocodone with Tylenol, simply
because that's what most doctors can write and it isn't held in suspicion, and you can usually buy it OTC when OOTC (over the counter, out of the
country). The rules regarding pain relief make it very clear that our society is still more against anyone experiencing undeserved pleasure, or in
my case pain relief, than it is concerned for their health. If you take a thousand pills that contain any amount of tylenol at all , over your
entire LIFE TIME you chances of dying of kidney failure doubles. Yet the LD 50 of tylenol and it's cumulative toxic effects are used as a way to
keep people from taking more than their prescribed amount of codone at one time, even though if you have chronic pain and take you meds as
prescribed, but over a long period, it will kill you, this is a small price to pay to assure the people who have been brainwashed by insane belief
systems (any religion that takes the commuications of its founders and authorities as literal truth, such a Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, and the
other religions of the masses, hold insane beliefs and therefore though they may be functional as members of society (like a methedone addict can be)
they are at base conflicted, because their subconscious mind suspects that their own belifs are nutz even if the person has been frightened into not
allowing this thought to gain a hold of the conscious mind. So like I was saying, any price you pay personally to mollify the insane assumptions of
the fear infested minds of those infected in their youth by the abuse known as fundamentalism, is really worth it. Even if it means you dying of
kidney failure so that you don't experience undue pleasure. The doctors cannot write a refillable prescription for major pain meds, and they are
afraid that they will be persecuted by the DEA if they write what would be effective, even though all the studies show that a person who is taking
meds for pain has a much easier time stopping them if his pain goes away, than someone who is in it for recreational purposes. This is my
question. I have read what the former head of the DEA had to say years ago about these emerging pain relief molecules that were just vastly potent
compared to something like heroin. Which I was happy to hear because, like it or not, if things progress with me and with many other people, we
could run out of viable options short of something like Michael Jackson was doing. Except now there are supposed to be these hyper potent
compounds. hundreds of times more potent than morphine. Well I don't think I've ever experience anything that strong in a hospital. I have
however experienced all those that are commonly available for chronic pain patients and for operations and what not. Of these, the one that
stands out to me, by far, isn't a shot of fentanyl or an IV of morphine. It's a little pill that is vastly potent when taken orally in very small
doses: levo dromaran:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/levorphanol....
In any sane culture this would be the compound of choice because even junkies have been shown to naturally titrate to a functional level when
allowed as much heroin as they want. They won't keep doing more and more they will increase incrementally to a point where they will back off a
little and then stay at that level. So like I said, due to my condition I have a natural motivation to be interested in the whole area of study.
I have reviewed a lot of the counterculture material on the issue that is on the internet and done a fair amount of research. So, as I said,
it seems to me that the cultural bias in the sphere of recreational molecules of this third wave, which can even be seen as a return to the first
wave pre sixties orientation toward drugs as booze, will increasingly turn to the truly euphoric compounds, and away from the tweaking, self-absorbed
gibberish that is the mind on speed. Speed kills (remember that campaign?) So the thing that doesn't make sense it this. We have all these
junkies, and chippers, tweekers and under medicated people who suffer continually because the medical profession has become an enforcement arm of
the DEA. It was even worse a few years ago. Many doctors would actually rather let a patient die in agony than change the dosing schedule
recommended by the authorities. I myself watched a beloved great aunt die in agony from leukemia because her closest relatives were afraid that she
would become addicted to pain killers. I know this makes no sense as she was about to die anyway, but that was the mindset, and it still
persists, despite all evidence that reality is far different than the official story, and equally as different form the deconstruction of the
official story.
So I am wondering where are these super analgesics that we were warned about years ago as an imminent threat, as if they were part of Saddam’s
nuclear program. It didn't make sense. Why all the trouble to grow and smuggle an inferior product (street heroin) that may have been up
someone's ass and have all manner of contaminants that are killing people, not to mention the fact that the substance they seem to need is so
expensive because of the law, that it keeps them involved in a desperate attempt to get cash. But I really don't think there is any chance at all
of a sane policy toward drugs. There is too much money in it just because it is illegal. There is too much corruption. The politicians and judges
and police will never give up the money that flows to them because of the misery of a portion of the population that is in dire need of a
substance that is lacking in them, and they substitute the drug of their choice for it. So I thought, Where is all the underground levo dromaran,
and the rest of the really great pain relievers that the crashing tweekers either need or are gonna need soon? I thought, well it must be
really hard to make, or it would be everywhere. I looked in on the various archives of some of the recreational molecule sites. Much to my
surprise, they seemed to be saying that Levo Dromaran was relatively easy to make. Now I don't know. I read the thing about how to make it. I
don't know enough about chemistry to know if it is easy to make or if this is something that some chemical genius had to say about it. So I am
asking this here for my own intellectual edification. I mean this is just what the people dying on the streets need. It is very potent taken
orally. I can attest to this from medical use. It also says it is almost or just as strong orally as when injected. Wouldn't it save a lot of
lives and misery if some little pill showed up that satisfied the addicts search for euphoria at a very low oral dose and didn't make you sleepy?
And it's easy to make? This doesn't make sense, and anyone who can shed any light on this anomaly from a chemical perspective, (not asking for a
how to, I wouldn't understand it anyhow) Just looking for the reason why this isn't being done, at least on any level like it would need to, to
supplant iv heroin and meth use. Any opinions? TIA\Jac
|
|
|
Vogelzang
Banned
Posts: 662
Registered: 26-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Congratulations. This must be the worst give me a dope recipe question ever written on the internet. It hurts to see what drugs can do to the
intellect, but I'll still probably head out to the liquor store soon, before my regular alcohol abstinance plan comes into effect again in the fall.
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Really, You don't think this is a legitimate question? I didn't ask for a recipe did I? I simply asked for a comment on why something is not being
done. I personally have quite a collection of pain killers that are prescribed to me. In fact I had to use 90mg of morphine sulphate this morning
for pain. I am neither in need of analgesics or money. But I see a lot of miserable souls who are, everyday on the streets. I personally don't use
alcohol as it makes people stupid. I wouldn't use morphine either if there was a non drug therapy that worked for me. So despite you instant wise
kneejerk, my question is really a question. Why, with all the apparent need and market, isn't this being done? I suspect that it is not truly an
easy thing to do, but I don't know, so I asked. Personally when I have break through pain my doc will usually prescribe Levo because it works and
lasts very long and dosen't knock you out. I guess the pain in your life is yet to come. Except for maybe psychological pain, as refelected in your
alcohol use. Psychological pain isn't anything. When you have the exquisite experience of breaking into a cold sweat and passing out from pain
perhaps you wouldn't be so off hand know it all about other people's motivations.
[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If anyone else has an equally low ability to comprehend the written word like Vogel, I would just like to make it clear that I am not asking for a
recipe. I am asking a for a general response such as, "The statments that claim this is easy to do are misleading." I do not care to know chemical
specifics. In fact the link I give is a recipe, I guess. My interest is more in why this is such an unknown and forgotten drug? Because it is a
wonderful drug. It kills pain dead, and doesn't make you sleepy, and you need very little of it. Yet typically if you were dying of cancer your
palliative care doc would be much more likely to give you something like methadone or morphine, neither of which are in the same league as far as
feelings of well being even though your body is self-destructing beneath you. I asked an honest question and this is what I get in response. I was
hoping that this was not the kind of place where sarcasm needed to stand in for intelligence like in the above post by Vogel. What would possibly
motivate someone to make a post like that. Feelings of superiority brought on by deep seated fears? Who knows? I was expecting a little more from
this site. Like perhaps a response form grown ups. And here is a question for you. If I were, or someone was, asking for a "recipe" you must be
very blinded by the overall consensus reality that has been foisted upon you to automatically assume a condemning tone. The real fact is you don't
know what will do any particular individual good or harm. Or maybe you just don't know how to really be anonymous on the internet so you feel
compelled to exhibit asinine behaviour in your compulsive response. Or maybe, and this is my guess, outside of a very narrow field you are not very
intelligent and really didn't comprehend my post. Judging by you instant pedestrian hostility that's where I would place my bet.
|
|
|
turd
National Hazard
Posts: 800
Registered: 5-3-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There are economic, pharmacological, societal and other reasons. But your question has little to nothing to do with organic chemistry. It is not
really original either. Personally, I wonder why there isn't much more 2C-B instead of MDMA on the streets. In any case: wrong forum - try "whimsy".
PS: Your question can probably be condensed to two or three sentences, please don't make a huge novel out of it.
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2277
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
Perhaps folks on this site, were expecting a little less from you.
I'm not criticizing the quality of your writing. But, I am suggesting that there is an over-abundance of it.
Refresh your memory, regarding the crafting of a concise, readable, communication.
"The Elements of Style".........Strunk and White.
Get to the point. Omit needless words.
[Edited on 21-8-2010 by zed]
[Edited on 21-8-2010 by zed]
|
|
|
devongrrl
Hazard to Self
Posts: 91
Registered: 28-7-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Nucleophilic
|
|
What a wall of text, I didn't even bother reading it.
Perhaps you should learn about paragraphs.
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So far lots of criticism. No responses
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Why would someone comment on something they didn't bother to read?
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sorry to upset your homeostasis. Obviously hostility is the cultural norm here and that leaves me out. bye bye
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
It is not! And we'll flame the hell
out of anybody who says it is.
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2277
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
Or perhaps, your megalo-maniacal babbling, induces just criticism, that you interpret as hostility.
|
|
|
Sandmeyer
National Hazard
Posts: 784
Registered: 9-1-2005
Location: Internet
Member Is Offline
Mood: abbastanza bene
|
|
Hehe, I didn't know that one 
EDIT: 100 bucks that this thread will become most popular on forum if it dosen't get locked, 100 bucks!
[Edited on 21-8-2010 by Sandmeyer]
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
You have not upset my homeostasis. You have perturbed my karma, and that is much worse.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
rrkss
Hazard to Others
Posts: 193
Registered: 18-12-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Maybe if you rephrase your question into one paragraph or two at the most, I'll bother to read it and give you an answer.
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Damn! It is in oportunities like these that I wish I never was a moderator. Do I really have to read several kB of unparagraphed text just to check if
it is posted in the wrong forum section?
Anyway, now that I'm done I might as well reply or else I will feel stupid for having read all that. I guess most replies above were born out of the
same need.
The statements that claim this is easy to do are misleading.
Trust me. Levorphanol is not easy to synthesize. Well, it is easy compared to the total synthesis of, let's say Salvinorin A, but it is not equally easy as the synthesis of several much more potent mu agonists. So, this could be one of the reasons why it
does not appear on the black market. Nobody profit oriented would chose to have it synthesized when there are simpler and more potent stuff available.
It could originate on the street as a diversion from legitimate sources, though.
But this it can be the only reason, because you don't see much else but occasionally fentanyl on the black market when it comes to opioids. I like to
think, but I'm sure I'm self deluding myself, that one of the most important reasons is in that to being able to synthesize such compounds one needs
to study for years and that in this process he forgets about the original goal and builds up some ethical barriers disallowing him from doing
something so idiotic as making opiods for money. But when I start to think rationally I come to think the main reason is much more banal. Something
like criminals and traders thinking like: "Why bothering? We have a cheap supply of heroin from Afghanistan and heroin is what our customers want.
Only an idiot would change business when the business runs smooth and perfect."
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
|
|
|
Nicodem
|
Thread Moved
21-8-2010 at 13:26 |
Vogelzang
Banned
Posts: 662
Registered: 26-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I was convinced that the first post was an amphetamine fueled rant until I got to the part about the narcotics.
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
They are not really without paragraphs, their just not little paragraphs. Anyway thanks for slogging through a post that obviously has no value in
any of the thoughts expressed in it.
Your response makes sense. For the most part. Thanks
I don't have any connection to any black market personally, but I have done some lurking in pain groups and even what I would consider addict
groups. No I am not the type of individual that takes photos of his medications and posts them as pinups for junkies. Very few of these people
would switch places with me no matter the access to meds.
Levo is hard to make. I suspected as much.
My view that has emerged from a survey of various forums more or less devoted to drug abuse know how, leads me to believe that these people hate
heroin. Or rather they hate the heroin that they are able to obtain. You don't know how many time I stopped myself from making derisive posts to
people who's life came to center around not being sick. But the truth is that I am not the same as them chemically. I can tell this by the simple
fact that I can have hundreds of fast release Oxycontin or morphine sulphate on hand and not take any, and feel good about it. Sure if I am coming
out of a bad period I taper off, but I can do this in just a few days and until the pain returns I am fine with how I feel.
This is just not true of these people. And it doesn't seem to me that it is a matter of moral superiority or will power or any of that nonsense.
We are chemically different. I have seen the same thing with some people and alcohol. It was like something was always missing in their metabolism
until they start drinking, usually as a teenager, and once they started it's too late.
People have different pain thresholds and much different responses to pain meds, so government interference in something that should be the sole
province of medicine becomes a road to a political or law enforcement career by people who are generally amoral, as regards the bodies they step on
to advance.
In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally. Much more morally
than guide lines that do not even take into account factors like 10% percent of the male population does not have any response to codeine, but
that is most likely the only pain med that will be offered them by their GP, and if they complain about them not being effective or about the damage
that tylenol does to humans, it is considered as a matter of policy to be drug seeking behavior. Or the fact that super intelligent mice were found
to be super sensitive to pain when they were genetically engineered. Or the fact that drug seeking behavior is entirely appropriate if you need
drugs.
It's just a friggen witch hunt. That people build careers on. It's the same thing as the Inquisition. It's all based in lies like the total
insanity that a huge portion of humanity accepts as truth because of childhood conditioning.
If you actually think that something like black tar heroin is what addicts want you need to go on some of these forums and read how dismal and
hopeless and lost in pain, unable to stop themselves, and just wanting to feel normal these people are. This is the only choice that we as a
society have offered to these people. What you may consider a moral concern, I consider a chemical concern, even though I know nothing about
chemistry outside of broad generalizations and you know much.
If someone were to offer these people a way to have meds and not be totally debased by their need, because of what we allow in our name, via the
government, and support because of fear and ignorance, to me that would be the moral person, and why shouldn't they make some money doing it. Do you
work for free? Almost every public policy ends up being the opposite of it's initially stated purpose. The only reason that these things are a
danger and unhealthy is because we make it that way and ignore all the evidence that is available from more caring societies that have had the
courage to question the heartless power elite that establish policies that create problems, that they can then rise to power campaigning against.
Don't Americans ever get tired of being dupes of their keepers?
I hope these paragraphs are small enough for everyone. I checked with my friend the mTV video editor and he said they should not present a problem
to you all.
[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]
[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  | In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally. Much more morally
than guide lines that do not even take into account factors like 10% percent of the male population does not have any response to codeine, but
that is most likely the only pain med that will be offered them by their GP, and if they complain about them not being effective or about the damage
that tylenol does to humans, it is considered as a matter of policy to be drug seeking behavior. Or the fact that super intelligent mice were found
to be super sensitive to pain when they were genetically engineered. Or the fact that drug seeking behavior is entirely appropriate if you need
drugs.
It's just a friggen witch hunt. |
As a physician, I can state that this is utter tripe. There are many
other meds that we can and do prescribe for patients if the standard meds are ineffective. Many of them contain no tylenol.
Drug seeking behavior is not the same as people in pain who seek relief. Physicians are well trained to distinguish between these two groups. Few of
us are the idiots that you would make us out to be.
|
|
|
hinz
Hazard to Others
Posts: 200
Registered: 29-10-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: |
...I checked with my friend the mTV video editor... |
If strange persons are appearing next to you while doing drugs, you definitely do too much drugs.
And in case you feel any mercy for heroin addicts, I don't.
These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences.
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As a physician I would expect nothing other than for you to defend your monopoly. And you have obviously never been on the other side of the
prescription stick.
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by hinz | | Quote: |
And in case you feel any mercy for heroin addicts, I don't.
These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences. |
I don't feel mercy. Mercy is not a feeling. I am not judging them so there is no need for mercy.
I do however feel compassion for them, and it seems you don't. Because of this I now feel compassion for you though. If you have great luck, someday
you will too. |
|
|
|
Sandmeyer
National Hazard
Posts: 784
Registered: 9-1-2005
Location: Internet
Member Is Offline
Mood: abbastanza bene
|
|
Sorry to hear, what type of, if I may ask? I wonder since I'm at times preoccupied thinking about nasty diseases.
|
|
|
JacFlasche
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 20-8-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | | Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche | | As a physician I would expect nothing other than for you to defend your monopoly. And you have obviously never been on the other side of the
prescription stick. |
As a cancer survivor, I feel confident in saying you are full of shit. I know about
pain in ways that you could not possibly imagine.
Everybody wants to be a physician, but few of us have the intestinal fortitude to go to medical school.
I did, and you don't.
Why don't you go troll somewhere else? |
Yeah it's the old I'm a physician god complex. You sir are surely superior because you attended medical school. You must have great grit and
fortitude and humility. I salute you sir and all the rationalizations that support your superior posturing. God speed. You have even survived the
great peril that your ego could expand to such a degree that you brain died and you started tossing inane disparaging remarks. Aside from that good
luck with the cancer, truely wish at least your body well.
|
|
|
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
|
|
"These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences."
Such closed-minded pomp. How different you would probably feel if a loved one was affected in this way.
I think this thread should be closed. I can see this headed in the wrong direction.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
