Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2    4  ..  8
Author: Subject: LET THIS SIGNAL THE END OF THE FRIDGE PUMP QUESTIONS!
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 13-9-2010 at 20:58


Chances are what I will do is bend some sheet aluminum (or just sheet metal) into L's with notches on the top/bottom, then ziptie/worm gear clamp them onto the casing with thermal goop. I already have a fan aimed at the casing which helps control temperatures somewhat, I'll report back with results when they mean something.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
peach
Bon Vivant
*****




Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 14-9-2010 at 12:52


I've just been trying to recheck the gauge I have again against the pump out of it's case. The gauge is almost certainly skewed as it approaches zero.

If my boiling point is correct, it's running at something more like 26mBar.

I also noted that the dial was now reading a little higher than before even with only it connected after the distillations. I tried reapplying some more grease and saw it fall a little again.

That means the thicker grease outside the can idea isn't going to work, at least at the speed it's running (which is likely way quicker than it needs to be to maintain the vacuum; the glass isn't leaking anywhere near 0.2CFM); it's running out of the chamber too quickly.

Options remaining, use a significantly thicker oil (heavy motor grade?) and simply squirt it into the can. Slow the piston down with a variac or step down perhaps.

I suspected that gauge was up to no good, and have seen numerous guys on youtube mentioning strange skewing effects around zero with the mechanicals. I can't triple check it without the hot gauge behaving. Aonomus, are you set up to distill things? If so, have a go with some distilled water (or anything else you can get as a solid reference) and see how that rotary is managing.

If I can find some heavy oil in the garage, I'll give that a whirl too.

[Edited on 14-9-2010 by peach]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 14-9-2010 at 20:00


I have the glassware, just not the time. Being gainfully employed can also be quite the detractor to tinkering....

I'll give it a shot trying to do vac. distillation after I make a makeshift drying tube using plumbing parts and CaCl2 prills probably on the weekend, maybe sooner.... I managed to break both my crappy vac. gauges, so it will be hard for me to determine what the vacuum is.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
peach
Bon Vivant
*****




Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 15-9-2010 at 02:23


Nooooo, I mean, check the vacuum using a distillation.

If you distill something that you know is next to pure (preferably something with a BP over 200C), the temperature it comes over under vacuum can go through a nomograph to tell you the pressure.

And you can check things like your thermometer against a known standard, boiling distilled water and ice made from the same




View user's profile View All Posts By User
spong
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 128
Registered: 28-5-2009
Location: Chatham
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 16-9-2010 at 22:17


Connecting the tube straight to the air inlet is a great idea peach :D I might have to try that and then reseal the can so the oil can still flow around, I wouldn't have to worry about sucking solvents and water through it then.
I have a fridge pump question though...
I got one from uni today, they were throwing out some fridges and freezers from the biochem building, I couldn't help myself. I got it home and opened it up to wire the plug on and realized the capacitor isn't there :mad: I doubt I'd be able to get it either without tearing the whole thing apart. There was the power cord which led into the little box on the side of it and a white cord that ran out into the fridge somewhere. The white cord had 4 wires, one earth, one white, brown and blue. the brown and white both connect to the relay I think it is in different spots and the blue attaches to the motor protector along with a wire from mains.
Here's photos, they'd explain it better than me. I was wanting to put the cap from my old compressor onto this one but don't know which two wires to use.



Hopefully I can get this running, I was wandering around the building and saw a few -80C freezers, if this was one of those then I'd have a pretty hefty pump :D


[Edited on 17-9-2010 by spong]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Contrabasso
National Hazard
****




Posts: 277
Registered: 2-4-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 16-9-2010 at 23:49


Well my target with fridge pomp vac distillation was(is still!) to distil off nitric acid at something like 60C rather than 80C so that there is still an easy condensation task but a lower amount of red fume made and dissolved. Quite simply bleeding air into the vac line with a needle valve to hit a boil at 60c will do for me. I don't care what the pressure/vacuum is just I want clean WFNA at 1.50x SG
View user's profile View All Posts By User
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 17-9-2010 at 18:56


I just tried a vacuum distillation with water; as soon as I applied vacuum the water started to boil and my max achieved pressure was at 20degC vapor temp, maxing out at 23degC when it really got going (bumping and boiling fast). My condenser water was simply too warm (read: 15degC), so I did end up sucking alot of water into the pump. I ran it for an extra hour and I hope I got all the water out of it.

Using a nomograph, 20-23degC works out to about 40-50mmHg, not as strong as I'd hoped, but that was limited by the vapor pressure of water. If I were to try to distill something like phosphoric or sulfuric acid, I'm sure I could get the pressure even further down.

I think this pump is overkill for vacuum filtrations (read: flask implosion!?) but good for distillations.

Oh, and with the cooling fan I rigged up blowing against the casing (no heatsinking or anything, just the bare painted steel case), external temperature was about 40degC average for the 30 minute run. I suppose enough water got sucked in to help cool it down, as the water started to evaporate, taking heat with it.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5387
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: pumped

[*] posted on 17-9-2010 at 19:42


I'm confused as to how you measured your vacuum. If using water I would start out with the water as cold as possible, letting it warm to room temperature slowly under your pump's vacuum. When the water starts to boil I would shut down the pump and measure the water temperature. Then go to a vapor pressure table or graph (vapor pressure vs temperature) and look up the vapor pressure corresponding to the temperature you measured. This vapor pressure is the pressure of your vacuum chamber. I don't see any need for a nomograph.

If this is what you did, then I just didn't understand.




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
View user's profile View All Posts By User
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 17-9-2010 at 19:57


My basement is pretty darn cold, initial temp of the water was around 8-10degC, RT was 19. I placed the flask in a water bath at 20degC and applied vacuum. On boiling, water temperature was 20degC, as was the vapor. Once the boiling subsided, heat was applied to the water bath, and boiling resumed, with temperature at 23degC constant.

Looks like by vapor pressure ( P = e(20.386-5132/T) ), pressure was around 17-20mmHg (I'm giving this a bit of range for error).
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
peach
Bon Vivant
*****




Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 18-9-2010 at 01:08


You definitely want to ignore what the liquid does at first, it'll almost always start to boil, or at least de-gas, as soon as the vacuum is applied, then stop. Temperature measurements at that stage are fairly useless.

I tried checking mine with eugenol, because it normally boils at somewhere around 250C and I knew the oil was relatively pure, meaning it'll distort the measurements less at low pressures. The glass had also just been given a very good clean and the thermometer is a pricey mercury one from Germany made to a BS standard.

Your 17-20mmHg translates to 22.5-26.5mBar, about what I was getting with the fridge pump out of it's casing.

I suspect, even with a cold basement, that water may be skewing the pressure the rotary can achieve. You may need to give it another go with some reasonably pure, high BP oil and ice around the receiver. Also, try measuring the amount of material going in and coming back out at the start and end of the distillation (with a pipette or scale that will give some level of accuracy given the volume / mass used), to tell you if any has buggered off during the process.

I've tried distilling things like cyclohexane (ATM BP ~80C I think) under fridge pump vacuum. Even with my coil condenser cooled with ice, a remarkable amount has 'disappeared' when it comes to checking the results.

{edit}I have a PDF in the works where I've plotted various methods of weighing against the recently calibrated 0.1mg balance I have access to. I've tried those nasty looking £8.99 0.01g weed dealer scales from China, the digital ones for the kitchen, splitting piles of table salt by eye, using rulers over pens as balance beams and using randomly selected coins out of my pocket as reference masses. The nasty looking £8.99 are keeping a less than 1% error up to about 50g, despite me spilling agar and all kinds of crap over them, overloading them and never calibrating them. The kitchen ones have a huge amount of error in that region, but that then drops to about 1% over 100g. Stacks of coins can also produce a reference mass with vanishingly low errors as the error goes positive and negative over the years by an equal amount, so stacks of them cancel each elements error. Amusingly, I can see the mint tweaking the presses as the mass of the coins changes over the years. There is a very stable, periodic sine wave pattern.{/edit}

@sponge bob square panties

Try starting it without the cap, a lot of them work fine without it. If that fails, I'll double check mine (or check it anyway if I remember next time I'm beside it). I currently have so much to do it's becoming tricky to keep up with it all.

Print, colour in.... :D "I know I've gone outside the lines, but that's okay, because I like bein' myself"


[Edited on 18-9-2010 by peach]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
spong
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 128
Registered: 28-5-2009
Location: Chatham
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 18-9-2010 at 04:29


Yeah hopefully it would work without it, which pins should I wire the mains power onto? There's three, one of them would be the starting coil wouldn't it? I might have a rummage around that dumpster again on Monday and see if I can pull the cap out, there was some glassware in it too but most of it was broken.
I tried testing my pump out with the water boiling method, 34C, 50mbar... Not too good.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 18-9-2010 at 06:30


I think that while my pump vacuum is high, its useless for low boiling stuff unless I can cool my condenser down way below RT using some sort of refrigeration system (that is pretty hardcore).

That might even be my next project, convert some sort of refrigeration system into a recirculating chiller.

Or just get a cheap chest freezer, pop a few holes in the side, add a large reservoir and allow it to cool before starting a distillation.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
peach
Bon Vivant
*****




Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 18-9-2010 at 06:44


50mBar isn't that bad, it's still going to cause problems trying to distill solvents without some serious cooling on the go, and it's low enough to drop the high boiling oils down towards hot water bath temperatures.

I'll have a look at my fridge victims next time I go down (not long). Telepathetically send me "check the wires" waves.




View user's profile View All Posts By User
psychokinetic
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 558
Registered: 30-8-2009
Location: Nouveau Sheepelande.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Constantly missing equilibrium

[*] posted on 18-9-2010 at 14:13


Peach, would a fridge pump be able to get to such a vacuum that spongebob squarepants would expand to fill a 20L jug?
Would he survive?
Would he go back to his normal shape, or be forever known as Spongebob Flaccidpants?




“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
View user's profile View All Posts By User
watson.fawkes
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2793
Registered: 16-8-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 18-9-2010 at 18:27


Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
Peach, would a fridge pump be able to get to such a vacuum that spongebob squarepants would expand to fill a 20L jug?
I believe that Mr. Squarepants is an open-cell foam, and therefore no.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
starch
Harmless
*




Posts: 33
Registered: 13-3-2010
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 19-9-2010 at 23:07


peach thank you for this amazing thread

you have really cleared a lot of questions up for me

thank you very much indeed

take care
View user's profile View All Posts By User
peach
Bon Vivant
*****




Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 21-9-2010 at 14:44


Quote: Originally posted by aonomus  
I think that while my pump vacuum is high, its useless for low boiling stuff unless I can cool my condenser down way below RT using some sort of refrigeration system (that is pretty hardcore).


I've been watching the rest of your youtube videos and love them. A lot of them are virtually identical to what I'm interested in or thinking of, the magnets in fingers, syringe pumps, arduino's, axel f. ;)

Shame we don't live a bit closer.

In terms of the pressure problems, you can simply bleed a bit of atmosphere into the system at the intake of the pump to raise the pressure.

I'm working on some things you may be interested in. I stuck a pressure and vacuum gauge on a 60ml BD Plastipak and measured a peak of 100psi+ when squeezing it with my hands, before the tiny length of vacuum hose I was using to connect them with started to balloon out. The pressure sits still for a long while, but is slowly dropping on the one I'm leaving clamped (it looks like it's leaking round the seal). I'll report back on where it finally stays put and may try solvents (which would encourage the seal to swell and block the pressure in better).

Sticking the vacuum gauge on there, it can drop the pressure by 9/10th's of an ATM with one pull of the plunger. I don't have a one way valve handy to try lots of pulls.

I'm wondering about pumping solvent, noble gases, reactive gases, circulating jackets, running higher pressure reactions, arranging three in a rotary setup and driving them with a geared microwave turntable motor, using them for flash chromatography and so on. All of which I'm sure you could apply your Arduino talents to or produce something useful with. E.g. use a length of black iron pipe & some caps to hold the syringe and force the plunger down with a stepper. I'm still having major problems getting into microcontrollers. I've tried, multiple times, and am now reading John's book on the MSP430, since I have one. I am worried about picking up an Arduino in case it teaches me to program in a manner too reliant on the compiler and someone else's work; which may scupper my plans down line.

I also put the gauge on a fridge compressor and read 600 - 800psi, mainly towards 800. The nomograph result I got for redistilling some 250C oil under vacuum, run in reverse, would suggest something like 550psi. Either way, it's worryingly high and I won't stand in the same room as it at this early stage of things (that's saying something considering what else I get up to, minus gloves, masks or goggles).

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I'm confused as to how you measured your vacuum. If using water I would start out with the water as cold as possible, letting it warm to room temperature slowly under your pump's vacuum. When the water starts to boil I would shut down the pump and measure the water temperature. Then go to a vapor pressure table or graph (vapor pressure vs temperature) and look up the vapor pressure corresponding to the temperature you measured. This vapor pressure is the pressure of your vacuum chamber. I don't see any need for a nomograph.

If this is what you did, then I just didn't understand.


That will work, but redistilling a suitable amount of a high boiler is going to produce a more stable, applicable to another distillation, result. And distillations is the main aim of the game for most people.

When you shut the pump off on that, oil will start to back stream, so you'd need a tap (I'm guessing this is what you mean). Also, even with the tap in place, the temperature will skew as the solution continues to boil in a now enclosed volume.

You shouldn't be using water, or anything that boils near it, for these tests really. All of these pumps, aspirators included, will reduce the pressure low enough that enough will boil off from the receiving flask to skew the pressure you finally work out. If it boils below water, even ice cooling the receiver won't work.

Hence my recommendation of a reasonably pure, high boiling oil for the test; if you want to see how low it can theoretically go. That's not entirely necessary for a lot of chemistry work, but it is for checking the maximums the pumps can do under the best circumstances. And it's important when distilling high BP oils, which is when a vacuum is really needed.

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
Peach, would a fridge pump be able to get to such a vacuum that spongebob squarepants would expand to fill a 20L jug?
Would he survive?
Would he go back to his normal shape, or be forever known as Spongebob Flaccidpants?


Squarepants lives under the sea. He'd burst on land, or suffer some form of major brain hemorrhage and clotting issues (he probably has already, so that's not going to help at all).

Quote: Originally posted by spong  
Yeah hopefully it would work without it, which pins should I wire the mains power onto? There's three, one of them would be the starting coil wouldn't it? I might have a rummage around that dumpster again on Monday and see if I can pull the cap out, there was some glassware in it too but most of it was broken.
I tried testing my pump out with the water boiling method, 34C, 50mbar... Not too good.


I might have missed something, but how did you test it if it's not wired to anything? Unless you mean a different pump? :P

Those pins shouldn't be wired direct to the mains. The pump will almost certainly sit there going "Hummmmm" if you do, then it'll burn out and need to go in the bin.

You need to push that starting relay back on there.

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
I believe that Mr. Squarepants is an open-cell foam, and therefore no.


This reminds me of aerogel. I've been reading into making that, it looks like fun. Particularly if I can sort out molding it into solid forms as opposed to the gravel United Nuclear sells. That's got to make one brutally compact furnace.

Quote: Originally posted by starch  
peach thank you for this amazing thread

you have really cleared a lot of questions up for me

thank you very much indeed

take care


No problems. The biggest thank you would be for you to start making some similar videos. Too much sitting around knowing things and not telling anyone until they make a mistake, then pouncing and saying 'har har' goes on in forums I feel.

[Edited on 21-9-2010 by peach]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 21-9-2010 at 14:54


Quote:
Shame we don't live closer


Canada still respects the Queen for some reason, is that close enough?

Quote:
In terms of the pressure problems, you can simply bleed a bit of atmosphere into the system at the intake of the pump to raise the pressure.


I have a needle valve I managed to get from a welding shop that was used, needed a little bit of cleaning on the inside, but the valve seat was still clean and working.

@peach: shoot me a U2U and we can chat off-board (more convenient perhaps).
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
food
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 81
Registered: 4-9-2010
Location: the West
Member Is Offline

Mood: mithering

[*] posted on 24-9-2010 at 23:45


Hi, great work dude; maybe you're tired of hearing that by now. Really though. I've been curious about fridge pumps for a while now, but been put off by what I'd been hearing and reading. Even at an appliance repair shop the fellow told me, 'oh, it will just burn out'. You're videos have answered a bunch of questions, and anticipated even more.

I didn't do more than test the pump in the photo that I've (hopefully) attached, but everything that I'd read about overheating prompted me to wind hose around and against the pump body in a preemptive mickey mouse attempt at cooling. So I find your reports quite encouraging.

I may be back. Politely asking questions. Cheers

(edit; don't know why I can't see the attached pic; will return to this later)

[Edited on 25-9-2010 by food]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Contrabasso
National Hazard
****




Posts: 277
Registered: 2-4-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 25-9-2010 at 02:57


Airflow needle valve came from a pet shop (fish tank section) for £2.99 and it's nominally waterproof!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
peach
Bon Vivant
*****




Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 25-9-2010 at 18:20


No, it's seriously fine, continue telling me how nice I am. Presents, kisses and monetary donations are especially welcome. :P

The overheating thing, anomonus has demonstrated, is a big divide between the US and Europe.

In the US, a lot of guys seem to be using those rotary things from AC units. And his was absolutely roasting in no time.

The piston kind, the little humming black boxes in the backs of kitchen fridges / freezers, they don't seem to have any major heat issues. I've never used a fan on one, and run them for half a day solid, or more. They do get fresh cup of tea hot, but a fan from a computer fan will sort that if you're worried about it.

I have now gone fridge pump cracky, and have been coming up with all kinds of ideas I want to try with them (decent vacuum, 500psi+ positive pressures and they're free, there's lot of things they could potentially do). So there may be more unusual things on the way. I would have put some more up by now, but an item I need has mysteriously gone missing (that kind of missing where you put it down, turn around, turn back and it's gone for two weeks).

I was hoping there'd be some easy way to drop the temperatures even more, but the laboratory super freezers (I've now discovered) are genuinely quite complicated. They use one pump to cool the other. But that's not still out of the question, since I haven't read into it enough (e.g. stick one freezer inside another).

I've also been looking at how syringes perform, the big, wash your horse's nasty cut out, disposable kind. They can be used to generate reactive gases for tests or producing small batches of things. And they don't pop until at least over 100psi.

I think they're polypropylene, which is fine around cyclohexane. One of the key solvents for chromatography. Combined with a suitable polar solvent, they could make a very cheap flash chromatography setup. The current industry innovation in flash is mid pressure, ~150psi. Some domain as the syringes can manage.

Feel free to ask away. The reason I started this thread was to finally clump all the fridge questions in one place, get them answered and move on. Because every forum I've ever visited about science is stuck in neutral with the fridge pump questions.

[Edited on 26-9-2010 by peach]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 25-9-2010 at 21:01


So an update: under vacuum, continual operation (1h+ filtering fine metal hydroxides), and with a fan pointed at the pump, I get about 40-50degC, the fan really does help alot. Additionally, getting the motor up to full speed helps alot with the heating issues.

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
hissingnoise
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3666
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pulverulescent!

[*] posted on 26-9-2010 at 11:44


Quote: Originally posted by peach  
(that kind of missing where you put it down, turn around, turn back and it's gone for two weeks).

Oh, right - the kind with two outcomes - 1) wife or SO finds missing item after search lasting 3 microseconds and 2) wife busy (cooking or shopping or whatever), so distressed hobbyist freaks out using foul language in loud voice thereby pissing off said wife or SO; peace only being restored in wee, small hours.
Know them well. . .

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5387
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: pumped

[*] posted on 26-9-2010 at 12:15


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  

Oh, right - the kind with two outcomes - 1) wife or SO finds missing item after search lasting 3 microseconds and 2) wife busy (cooking or shopping or whatever), so distressed hobbyist freaks out using foul language in loud voice thereby pissing off said wife or SO; peace only being restored in wee, small hours.
Know them well. . .


Recommendation for above:
1) Counsel wife or SO not to enter lab except by special invitation - for their own safety of course.
2) Kitchen utensils are to move in one direction only: from kitchen to lab, never the reverse.




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
View user's profile View All Posts By User
peach
Bon Vivant
*****




Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-9-2010 at 14:03


;)

If I was going to be pessimistic, I might suggest things like that 'go missing' when they're tidying up.

I think I've mentioned this before, but I've never had any fire problems despite leaving solvent soaked cloths all over the place, it in the sink and on me, whilst I sit around smoking or using a blow torch.

A 'fee-male' cat entered the scene not long ago and, for the first time in around a decade plus, within literally 30s, whooompf.... the surface is on fire, the drain is on fire.... she's shitting her pants.

Reason, attempting to light a candle and then place it next to the used cloths.

When I was in my teens, I was trying to clean bia-tch-umen tar off the bathroom floor at one point, which had been used to stick the tiles down in the days of old. I was sat, with the door closed, with the entire floor drenched in petrol and the can next to me. I turned around at one point to discover, yes... ANOTHER CANDLE had been light nearby. My face was going numb by that point (after hours of the addictive petrol smell), yet even I was still coherent enough to realize that might be a poor choice of time to light a candle, in the middle of the day.

Not long after, that incident, I came home to discover my mum had set the curtains on fire (and they were still on fire). Cause.... candle.

Girls + letting THEM light the candles.... bad, bad, combination. That's probably why their hearts melt when they discover a pro has done it for them.

Star Trek votes pro for domestic violence (upskirt cam);




Anyway, I'm STILL looking for this thing.

I always thought, if God does exist, I'm probably getting stuck in limbo for a few centuries when I die. Where I'll eek out my time coming back as a ghost, moving pens, pencils and other stationary items when they're needed.

"It looks like you're writing a letter, so I'm taking this pen"



[Edited on 26-9-2010 by peach]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2    4  ..  8

  Go To Top