RogueRose
International Hazard
Posts: 1585
Registered: 16-6-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Making magnesium powder in a blender - risk of fire?
I found that the case of an old laptop I took apart was magnesium, both the top and bottom along with some internal support structures. I was able
to put much of it through a paper shredder, a cross-cut shredder and it chips it up really nicely so I have some "shredded" magnesium.
The blender has a glass body and stainless blade, which is the only thing I can think of being an issue, if there is any ferrous material inside the
shred, a spark could ignite the Mg, but I went through piece by piece (along with a magnet) and there's nothing other than the blade and Mg pieces.
The blender works really well and after about 3 mins I see no wear on the blade (unlike the glass.... that ate the blade up but glass has a higher
hardness than steel, Mg, MUCH less). I thought I would stop and see if anyone thinks there is a risk of fire with this.
The container is air tight - sealed with some plumbing putty. IDK if there is a problem with oxidation like when milling Al powder when it comes in
contact with O2 (catching on fire). I haven't heard of Mg being as much of an issue and I'm not getting as fine a powder either.
So, is there a risk of fire from O2 and can the blades create any sparks on anything that isn't from blade material (I suspect no, though I really
don't want a 4000-5000F fire on my hands).
|
|
|
greenlight
National Hazard
Posts: 705
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: Energetic
|
|
I would be damn careful doing that in blender and avoid it if you can buy the Mg elsewhere.
Magnesium has the same problem as aluminium powder but even worse when milling it. The finer it gets, the higher the risk.
Mg reacts so well with oxygen because of its two outer valence electrons that it wants to lose while oxygen wants to gain two electrons for a full
shell.
Be extra careful when opening the blender after you have milled it, that's when most accidents happen. Don't mill it too fine in one go before
opening the lid. I have read that when ball milling it the jar has to be opened every hour to make the process safer.
If the blades of your blender are stainless steel there shouldn't be risk of sparking as you can buy mill media that are stainless steel balls.
I don't know what your use for the Mg powder is (I'm guessing pyro) but you will probably want to coat it as well for storage as it will get oxidized
by the air even in a proper storage container.
Just be careful as the burns will be bad and the fire hot if something goes wrong.
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
|
|
|
RogueRose
International Hazard
Posts: 1585
Registered: 16-6-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by greenlight  | I would be damn careful doing that in blender and avoid it if you can buy the Mg elsewhere.
Magnesium has the same problem as aluminium powder but even worse when milling it. The finer it gets, the higher the risk.
Mg reacts so well with oxygen because of its two outer valence electrons that it wants to lose while oxygen wants to gain two electrons for a full
shell.
Be extra careful when opening the blender after you have milled it, that's when most accidents happen. Don't mill it too fine in one go before
opening the lid. I have read that when ball milling it the jar has to be opened every hour to make the process safer.
If the blades of your blender are stainless steel there shouldn't be risk of sparking as you can buy mill media that are stainless steel balls.
I don't know what your use for the Mg powder is (I'm guessing pyro) but you will probably want to coat it as well for storage as it will get oxidized
by the air even in a proper storage container.
Just be careful as the burns will be bad and the fire hot if something goes wrong.
|
Thanks for the reply. I don't have a lot of experience with Mg or Al milling and I think I was remembering that magal might not be as pyrophoric..?
Maybe it is the same. I think I'll add a little stearic acid to the mix and keep the batches small. From what I see the pieces aren't really a
powder, more like large flake, so I think that is probably less dangerous than a very fine powder.
Thanks again for the suggestions!
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2531
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
I would suggest to do it outside, and have the switch to turn the blender on a safe distance from the blender. You can load it up, walk back, then
turn it on. If it starts to burn, you can cut the power and wait until the fire burns itself out. This way, you only risk the blender, not yourself.
|
|
|
XeonTheMGPony
International Hazard
Posts: 1636
Registered: 5-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This is why carbon is oft added to pyro Al, or Mg, it coats and helps lubricate the powder
|
|
|
Heptylene
Hazard to Others
Posts: 319
Registered: 22-10-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Can't you fill the blender with something inert, liquid or gas?
|
|
|
greenlight
National Hazard
Posts: 705
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: Energetic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Metacelsus | | I would suggest to do it outside, and have the switch to turn the blender on a safe distance from the blender. You can load it up, walk back, then
turn it on. If it starts to burn, you can cut the power and wait until the fire burns itself out. This way, you only risk the blender, not yourself.
|
The problem isn't so much when the blending/ milling is happening, it's when you open the container and expose the fresh Mg to atmospheric oxygen. A
remote way of slowly opening it would be good.
@Heptylene, the under inert conditions reminds me of an old explosives and weapons forum thread about blending aluminium to powder in a blender under
oil or water. I cant remember details exactly, I will have to see if I can find the results anywhere.
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
|
|
|
Heptylene
Hazard to Others
Posts: 319
Registered: 22-10-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You might fill the blender with CO2 gas. I don't think Mg reacts with CO2 at low temperatures. If it doesn't then it would be as simple as putting a
small chunk of dry ice inside the blender and waiting for it to fill the blender with CO2.
Maybe diesel could be used as an inert liquid: it's not too viscous, and has flash point higher than room temperature (so no ignition even with a
spark at room temp). However, blending for a long time will heat up the liquid, possibly above its flash point.
|
|
|
mayko
International Hazard
Posts: 1218
Registered: 17-1-2013
Location: Carrboro, NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: anomalous (Euclid class)
|
|
If it can get the activation energy, magnesium will burn even in dry ice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xCbal2YyaE
I don't know if eg static electricity could set it off but I also don't know if I'd count on finely divided magnesium in CO2 being inert! 
[Edited on 11-3-2019 by mayko]
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3022
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Use some mineral oil.
|
|
|
XeonTheMGPony
International Hazard
Posts: 1636
Registered: 5-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
there is a reason carbon has been used for centuries, all these exotic ideas all have thier own post work up issues.
When it comes to making fine metal powders the name of the game is to precoat them with some thing inert to what your doing, for pyro this is carbon,
for chem, elemental carbon can (I think at least) be washed off or most part will ignore the reaction.
Caution is still needed on opening, very slowly open a bit and close to allow the initial protective oxide layer form slow enough as to not generate
heat enough to get a runaway going (burning)
Blender / ball mill the only difference is speed more or less when it comes to the objective.
My larger concern would be wrecking a blender! By burning the motor out.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3022
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Can anyone explain me why carbon would be better than mineral oil? It can easily be washed of with acetone.
|
|
|
Felab
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 9-11-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: :dooM
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | | Can anyone explain me why carbon would be better than mineral oil? It can easily be washed of with acetone. |
The mineral oil might form a paste or a sort of dough as the particles get finer and finer that will not blend easily or eficiently.
The mineral oil sticks the particles together much more strongly than the carbon does (at least I think that's the reason)
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3022
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Then use thinner oil.
|
|
|
Felab
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 9-11-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: :dooM
|
|
This would partialy mitigate the problem but no matter how viscous the mineral oil is it will always clump up the magnesium to a certain extent. If
the aplication it will be used for is sensitive to carbon(I don't think that carbon will be a problem in most cases) well then you can use mineral oil
but it will probably take much longer.
An advantage of using mineral oil though would be that very little powder would be suspended in the air so less risk of an explosion.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3022
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
The question is what the purpose is the powder is going to be used for, or did I missed that?
|
|
|
kulep
Harmless
Posts: 46
Registered: 19-5-2018
Location: Somewhere below the tropic of Capricorn
Member Is Offline
Mood: Spicy
|
|
Just FYI, the engine's crankcase of vw beetle's are magnesium, can be a cheap bulk source
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhY0xzKcPoE
[Edited on 12-3-2019 by kulep]
[Edited on 12-3-2019 by kulep]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
