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psychokinetic
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[*] posted on 27-10-2010 at 12:02


As a non Australian, I'm confused as to what your Australian-ness has to do with the offensiveness or not of a Muslim dude asking about non alcoholic beer, Ramiel.

Can't wait to see those, ScienceSquirrel :D




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[*] posted on 27-10-2010 at 12:14


Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm  

i am talking about zero%


How many zeros after the decimal point do you require? If the answer is an infinite amount, then no, it's not possible.

Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm  

i think in any case alcohol must generated due to fermentation !!!


Yes, no matter how you processes it beer from fermentation will have ethanol, more or less. I don't think it would be economical to get even 1 zero past the decimal point.

An anecdote: I once took a bottle of O'Douls beer ("alcohol free") to work as a gift for another engineer's birthday party. The operations manager found out about it and I was mildly rebuked - some of this was a power trip, I think. He explained that there was still some alcohol in the beer so we could be criticized by upper management. That's one of the reasons I never wanted to go into management.

[Edited on 27-10-2010 by Magpie]




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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 04:49


Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Hey, the nifty beverage to drink during a visit to Mecca, comes from the ancient well near the Kaaba.

Reputedly, Zem Zem (or Zam Zam) has never failed, since its discovery 4000 years ago.

According to legend, it dates from the time of Abraham. It is alluded to, in The Old Testament, but perhaps not by name.



no i am just talking about beverages not the Zam-Zam water also there is Zam Zam cola but i think it is iranian
any way the name zam Zam like this :

(( NAMES OF ZAMZAM )) : (( NAMES OF ZAMZAM )) REASON OF THE NAME : ZAMZAM WATER IS CLLED “ZAMZAM” BECAUSE OF ITS HUGE MUCH WATER. SOME OTHER PEOPLE SAY THAT BECAUSE IT GATHERS. AND THE OTHER PARTY SAYS THAT BECAUSE HAJAR SAID “ZAM, ZAM” WHICH MEANS COLLECT. NAMES OF ZAMZAM : THE DRINK OF ISMAEL FROM ALLAH THE MISTRESS THE BLESSING THE USEFUL THE TIDINGS THE PURE THE PREVENTION THE FAULTLESS THE FORTUNATE THE BLESSED THE ENOUGH THE HEALTHY THE NOURISHMENT THE CLEAN THE POTABLE AND TOO MANY OTHER NAMES. Exit STORY OF ZAMZAM VERSE HADITH NAMES OF ZAMZAM ETIQUETTE THE BEST WATER SCINTFIC ANALYSIS






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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 05:00


Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel  
As an Australian, I find this whole thread offensive.

I'm glad that you asked this questions at scimadness, where we are all impartial men (and women) of science. I'm afraid that if you'd asked at a beer brewing site you'd be shouted out.

But seriously, could you just brew the malt flavoured drink in aerobic conditions? Yeast only produces alcohol in anaerobic conditions as far as I know.

I don't know if you've brewed before, but this aerobic environment will be extremely difficult to maintain: you will need to constantly percolate air or oxygen containing medium through and this air must be perfectly sterile. Sterility (save for the yeasties) is the most important factor in a tasty beer I reckon. How about a lightly oxidising salt? I can't think of one which won't oxidise the crap out of the rest of the brew.

Unfortunately, oxidation of beer gives it a distinctly wet-cardboard flavour or so I have found (not to mention the acetic acid, which you will not be troubled with, there being no alcohol to start with!).


i asked this question here because i know here full experienced people who will exactly give me the right answer , i am not attacking any body or any association
ok , thats must be clear ( I AM ASKING SCIENTIFIC QUESTION )in scientific words the case here is neutral

the second thing i know that even anaerobicyeasts or bacteria has is not net zero air or in other word it has atolerance of oxygen or air i think this tolerance will give it the ability to make fermentation

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by aeacfm]






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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 09:29


Okay relax.

In days past I might have played along with you... Australians are a great beer drinking nation. We have the 4th highest per capita consumption of beer in the world. I was just joking that I found the corruption of something so sacrosanct offensive... much like someone of a religious persuasion might. Didn't the "seriously though..." segue tip you off?

In all honesty, all the best of luck with your alcohol-free malt flavoured beverage.

edit:
Yes, the yeast typically used to brew alcohol does tolerate aerobic conditions very well. It will just multiply until it has used up all the oxygen or food. The problem now seems to be that the yeast won't turn the food into flavour, as it does in anaerobic conditions.

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by Ramiel]




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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 11:06


Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel  
Okay relax.

In days past I might have played along with you... Australians are a great beer drinking nation. We have the 4th highest per capita consumption of beer in the world. I was just joking that I found the corruption of something so sacrosanct offensive... much like someone of a religious persuasion might. Didn't the "seriously though..." segue tip you off?

In all honesty, all the best of luck with your alcohol-free malt flavoured beverage.

edit:
Yes, the yeast typically used to brew alcohol does tolerate aerobic conditions very well. It will just multiply until it has used up all the oxygen or food. The problem now seems to be that the yeast won't turn the food into flavour, as it does in anaerobic conditions.

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by Ramiel]


ok buddy
i understand you






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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 11:22


Shouldn't this be moving to the whimsy area now? It seems it has less to do with chemistry and more to do with somebody's religious preferences.
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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 12:19


Sounds to be about beer drinking.



“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 12:59


the gist here is that:
- alcohol is going to be formed due to the fermentation which occure due to yeasts or bacteria .

- the amount of alcohol formed is controled by the air or oxygen tolerence of these prokaryotes

am i right here ?






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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 13:12


I don't think it'd be against Halal to have TRACE quantities of alcohol present, e.g. way below 1%. Particularly if you put effort into removing as much alcohol as possible.

The idea, as I understand it, is that you shouldn't be purposefully blurring your mind, because it's not a positive thing; drinking it to get drunk.

If you've stripped as much from it as you possibly can from an already low percentage drink, that seems to be in the spirit of the idea to me.

As I sit here sipping my 5% Stella pint cans, I can still see the reasoning behind that idea. I would miss having nice icy cool, relaxing beers. But, if I'd been brought up being told I shouldn't do that and that I should find some other, more productive way of relaxing, I expect I wouldn't. I didn't crave beer when I was young. I've just become lazy in my methods of relaxing.

You'll basically never manage to get even a litre of alcohol to have 0 molecules of ethanol in it, even if you have a big factory making it.

I don't think Allah cares too much about parts per trillion, it's the idea behind it. You're talking about very low percentage alcohols to start with and then about removing as much of that as possible.

An easy way to do this would be to vacuum distill the beer, which will strip pretty much all of the ethanol away. The vacuum breaks the water / alcohol azeotrope, which is usually only a problem with high concentration alcohols anyway.

[Edited on 28-10-2010 by peach]




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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 17:47


O'Doul's Dark is a pretty tasty NA beer. And, despite the absence of alcohol, it is a relaxing brew. Hops, the beer flavoring, is itself a relaxant. Makes a nice tea. Seems to aid in lactation too.

Hops can also be stuffed into a bed pillow, to help to induce sleep.

As for alcohol consumption; it is impossible to completely avoid it. The very air we breath is full of organisms that start making alcohol, when given carbohydrates, water, and the slightest opportunity.

Generally speaking, making your best effort to remove all alcohol from NA beer should be considered good enough.

The prohibition against consuming alcohol, is aimed at preventing the terrible behavior that intoxication may produce.

Here in the West, when violent acts are committed, about 80% of the time, significant alcohol or drug use is a factor.



[Edited on 29-10-2010 by zed]
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[*] posted on 28-10-2010 at 21:24


Quote: Originally posted by zed  
O'Doul's Dark is a pretty tasty NA beer. And, despite the absence of alcohol, it is a relaxing brew. Hops, the beer flavoring, is itself a relaxant. Makes a nice tea. Seems to aid in lactation too.



Got a cloth?




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[*] posted on 29-10-2010 at 03:56


Quote: Originally posted by peach  

An easy way to do this would be to vacuum distill the beer, which will strip pretty much all of the ethanol away. The vacuum breaks the water / alcohol azeotrope, which is usually only a problem with high concentration alcohols anyway.



Vacuum distillation has been and still may be used but the current favoured method is reverse osmosis.
There are a lot of other volatile substances in beer that contribute to aroma and flavour.
They are present in only trace amounts but their presence is vital, vacuum distillation removes them and changes the drink by a lot.

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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[*] posted on 29-10-2010 at 04:36


That's true, it likely would make it taste funny.

Where might he get a suitable membrane for that in the kinds of quantities he'll need though? That's not an arsehole question, I'm actually interested as I haven't looked into that myself.




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[*] posted on 29-10-2010 at 06:36


Quote: Originally posted by peach  


As I sit here sipping my 5% Stella pint cans, I can still see the reasoning behind that idea. I would miss having nice icy cool, relaxing beers. But, if I'd been brought up being told I shouldn't do that and that I should find some other, more productive way of relaxing, I expect I wouldn't. I didn't crave beer when I was young. I've just become lazy in my methods of relaxing.

I don't think Allah cares too much about parts per trillion, it's the idea behind it. You're talking about very low percentage alcohols to start with and then about removing as much of that as possible.


[Edited on 28-10-2010 by peach]

aha , thats your opinion about that , i m asking about different thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






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[*] posted on 29-10-2010 at 07:25


Quote: Originally posted by peach  
That's true, it likely would make it taste funny.

Where might he get a suitable membrane for that in the kinds of quantities he'll need though? That's not an arsehole question, I'm actually interested as I haven't looked into that myself.



There is plenty of literature on the subject. There are brewing suppliers that would sell a complete rig and membranes etc. I think it would be quite pricey though. Here is a paper that discusses a suitable method.

http://www.desline.com/articoli/7861.pdf
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[*] posted on 29-10-2010 at 10:04


I think we need a Friday Night Drinking Thread



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[*] posted on 29-10-2010 at 13:54


Quote: Originally posted by aeacfm  

aha , thats your opinion about that , i m asking about different thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well, since you're going to get picky about it, I'll get picky too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the facts.

Zed is entirely correct.

You can essentially forget this idea altogether.

He is also correct that there WILL be alcohol molecules in pretty much anything organic you eat or drink.

The yeast cells are everywhere, in the air, water, food products.

Unless you're willing to live in a HEPA filtered clean room drinking boiled, membrane filtered water and eating synthetic sugar, you're consuming molecules of alcohol whether you like it or not.

Trying to remove every single molecule of contaminant from something is impossible. Labs spend billions trying to do this with the most advanced equipment available, and can't. There is no chemical available that is 100% pure.

Alcohol is a natural part of life, it's the yeast trying to live, which I would assume Allah designed for. Purposefully getting drunk is not the same thing.

{edit}Actually, there is a way to do this. If you build you own mass spectroscopy unit and have it filter individual molecules one by one, it'll work. Then, when you pick up your lunch, you'll consume the alcohol molecules again. So you'll need to do it with everything (including the air you inhale). Good luck. ;)

{double edit}I just had a read of the Qur'an on this and it doesn't say anything about the drink needing to be 100% free of alcohol molecules, it simply says 'strong' or 'intoxicating' drinks. Meaning, if you can get the levels of alcohol down to those that are found in naturally occurring water, foods and so on, that's not an intoxicating drink, as those things aren't forbidden by Halal. The use of the words 'strong' and 'intoxicating' suggest something specifically brewed to contain alcohol and get someone drunk. It doesn't say, anything with any alcohol in it.

When the Qur'an was written, it was around the time people had begun mass producing alcohols and using them on a regular basis to get drunk. I strongly suspect that element of Halal is related to saying "That's not what you should be doing to yourself" (purposefully brewing and drinking something like that), not "A molecule of ethanol is evil".

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by peach]




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thumbdown.gif posted on 29-10-2010 at 15:43


Quote: Originally posted by peach  
]

Well, since you're going to get picky about it, I'll get picky too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the facts.

Zed is entirely correct.

You can essentially forget this idea altogether.

He is also correct that there WILL be alcohol molecules in pretty much anything organic you eat or drink.

The yeast cells are everywhere, in the air, water, food products.

Unless you're willing to live in a HEPA filtered clean room drinking boiled, membrane filtered water and eating synthetic sugar, you're consuming molecules of alcohol whether you like it or not.

Trying to remove every single molecule of contaminant from something is impossible. Labs spend billions trying to do this with the most advanced equipment available, and can't. There is no chemical available that is 100% pure.

Alcohol is a natural part of life, it's the yeast trying to live, which I would assume Allah designed for. Purposefully getting drunk is not the same thing.

{edit}Actually, there is a way to do this. If you build you own mass spectroscopy unit and have it filter individual molecules one by one, it'll work. Then, when you pick up your lunch, you'll consume the alcohol molecules again. So you'll need to do it with everything (including the air you inhale). Good luck. ;)

{double edit}I just had a read of the Qur'an on this and it doesn't say anything about the drink needing to be 100% free of alcohol molecules, it simply says 'strong' or 'intoxicating' drinks. Meaning, if you can get the levels of alcohol down to those that are found in naturally occurring water, foods and so on, that's not an intoxicating drink, as those things aren't forbidden by Halal. The use of the words 'strong' and 'intoxicating' suggest something specifically brewed to contain alcohol and get someone drunk. It doesn't say, anything with any alcohol in it.

When the Qur'an was written, it was around the time people had begun mass producing alcohols and using them on a regular basis to get drunk. I strongly suspect that element of Halal is related to saying "That's not what you should be doing to yourself" (purposefully brewing and drinking something like that), not "A molecule of ethanol is evil".

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by peach]


- i said it before and i will repeat again i am asking scientific question or the case here is neutral , i am not talking about my religion or other.

- to finish this buddy , i will give you some thing i hope my broken english language help me to make you smile .


- before i asked i didnt know that alcohol is goingto be fromed and i knew it now ??? ok ??? i got what i want .
- islamic Canons is not by your opinion or my opinion or other there is procedure and specific ways tell you to do it or to do this thing or not to do it.it is not like if i want to sleep ok i will sleep (this is not your own world and many people living beside you and may what you see oh it is so bad , it may be so good to others ) , but every thing is regulated in the way that make you do every thing in the right way and by the way you can do by what you own of your abilities and this is the mercy of islam that give you the way that you can deal with out Stresses but he ask you to do it by lovely way.


- many rules are summarized in quran but its amount and its way is outlined by Hadith.


- when the quran written no body was drinking any thing (i hope what you read is from documented source ) as the alcohol drinking was forbidden by Quran many years before .


- Allah will forgive you about what any thing (not drinking alcohol) you do it if you was not learning or was not intended.
any way , i Benefited too much from this great forum.

have anice day buddy

[Edited on 29-10-2010 by aeacfm]






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[*] posted on 29-10-2010 at 17:23


The Islamic canon is what I was wondering about re; any non alcoholic beers that may be produced in say, Mecca.



“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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[*] posted on 30-10-2010 at 03:31


Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
The Islamic canon is what I was wondering about re; any non alcoholic beers that may be produced in say, Mecca.


i am sorry but i cant understand you ???






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[*] posted on 30-10-2010 at 12:42


Islamic canon is a law unto itself, and the people in charge of it dictate what the devout can and cannot do, right?

So I was wondering what the official stance on alcohol free beers was. If the top dudes say it's ok.... then it's ok, right?




“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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[*] posted on 30-10-2010 at 12:43


It should be possible to reduce the alcohol content of beer to virtually zero and keep it there by adding purified (recombinant) alcohol dehydrogenase and its cofactor NAD+. It would be an expensive beer, and it remains to be seen how it affects the taste. Even if the enzyme and the NAD+ don't taste bad, the taste of the alcohol itself is an important component of normal beer and I suspect you need to add compounds to substitute for it.
Also, the resulting acetaldehyde can't be good for you. Perhaps adding aldehyde dehydrogenase as well wouldn't be a bad idea.




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[*] posted on 30-10-2010 at 17:31


Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
Islamic canon is a law unto itself, and the people in charge of it dictate what the devout can and cannot do, right?

So I was wondering what the official stance on alcohol free beers was. If the top dudes say it's ok.... then it's ok, right?


yes






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[*] posted on 30-10-2010 at 18:00


So if they say it is ok, then I don't see the problem. Alcohol free beer is full of Islamic win! :D



“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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