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Morgan
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 12:16
Notre Dame Smoke


Watching the news, at one point the smoke seemed to have a chalky yellow or sulfur color and wondered what might be causing that?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 12:33


I kinda put the vivid colouring down to brown smoke being backlit by the sun.

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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 14:12


Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
Watching the news, at one point the smoke seemed to have a chalky yellow or sulfur color and wondered what might be causing that?
inside job



I'm French so excuse my language
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 14:28


Flames frequently look odd colors in pics or video due to saturation and or the spurious sensitivity of the sensor to near infrared.

In addition to the spurious sensitivity to IR the visible spectral sensitivity of the camera sensor does not accurately replicate a retina and the display primary colors have limitations too.




i am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 17:37


"The exact cause of the blaze was not known, but French media quoted the Paris fire brigade as saying the fire is "potentially linked" to a 6 million-euro ($6.8 million) renovation project on the church's spire and its 250 tons of lead. "
https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/article_96eaae8...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxide

Could some smoke have been yellow from this?

Not the best showing yellow but the best I could dig up quickly.
https://e3.365dm.com/19/04/768x432/skynews-paris-notre-dame_...
https://media.nbcsandiego.com/images/652*367/notre-dame-fire...

"Massive plumes of yellow brown smoke is filling the air above Notre Dame Cathedral and ash is falling on tourists and others around the island that marks the center of Paris."
https://www.tennessean.com/picture-gallery/news/world/2019/0...

If you blow this photo up you can see it's decidedly yellow in places.
https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2019/04/000_1FO...
(Note the yellow smoke is proximate to the spire in the above photo.)
"The spire — made of oak and 250 tons of lead — was a primary focus of the renovation project ..."
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/notre-dame...

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 18:54


The enormity of the tragedy cannot possibly be overstated, and I am only thankful that (to the best of my knowledge) no one was killed in the inferno. While I've read many of the quite literally priceless relics were saved, and the main structure is intact, the damage is still horrific. (The choice of emoticon in the thread title is... concerning.) 【EDIT: This was an innocent mistake on the part of OP, and I apologise if I was of offense】

A more interesting question is what started the inferno, and why was the building so quickly and so rapidly was consumed by the fire? For 9 centuries and countless wars- including the French Revolution and WW2- the whole of the Cathedral has stood more or less intact. What was so special about the current circumstances that caused such damage?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]




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Morgan
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 19:12


Quote: Originally posted by myr  
The enormity of the tragedy cannot possibly be overstated, and I am only thankful that (to the best of my knowledge) no one was killed in the inferno. While I've read many of the quite literally priceless relics were saved, and the main structure is intact, the damage is still horrific. (The choice of emoticon in the thread title is... concerning.)

A more interesting question is what started the inferno, and why was the building so quickly and so rapidly was consumed by the fire? For 9 centuries and countless wars- including the French Revolution and WW2- the whole of the Cathedral has stood more or less intact. What was so special about the current circumstances that caused such damage?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]



I'm using a tablet and must have hit the emoticon accidentally when typing with several tabs open hunting information. I never intentionally use emoticons. Thanks for the heads up. Just tired and my tablet keeps freezing or locking up.


[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 19:17


Quote: Originally posted by myr  
The enormity of the tragedy cannot possibly be overstated, and I am only thankful that (to the best of my knowledge) no one was killed in the inferno. While I've read many of the quite literally priceless relics were saved, and the main structure is intact, the damage is still horrific. (The choice of emoticon in the thread title is... concerning.)

A more interesting question is what started the inferno, and why was the building so quickly and so rapidly was consumed by the fire? For 9 centuries and countless wars- including the French Revolution and WW2- the whole of the Cathedral has stood more or less intact. What was so special about the current circumstances that caused such damage?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]


Quit being such an alarmist! Who gives a shia about some old building... I'm sure it is just another case of "some people doing something" and nothing for you to be worried about. It's an old building, it's expexted. It's not like churches are often the ONLY building left standing in an entire towned that is bombed, ravaged by fire, hit by hurricane/typhoon/tornado, earthquakes, etc. It's not like there are hudreds of miraculous cases like that which science will just ignore as "location location location". So the burning of the most famous chruch in the world is really kind of expected (when you have "some people" in your country).
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 19:38


Actually, RR, this time I think it is you who needs a bit of perspective.
This is an 850 year old building which is old by even Parisian standards. There is a lot of history in those stones. It was considered worthwhile to undertake a many-millions restoration of the building (and not its first in all those centuries). Its loss is a tragedy. Not the same kind of tragedy as a loss of life but a tragedy nonetheless.




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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 19:43


"Lead sheet roofing on the outside of the wood structure. Molten lead fell in the cathedral interior, creating a hazard for firefighters."
"Approximately 210 tonnes (230 short tons) of lead sat atop this to complete the cathedral's roof."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_de_Paris_fire

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 20:49


Maybe the smoke from the fire could be of concern?
Know lead properties:
"Lead melts at 621 °F. Fumes are released at 900 °F. Lead can
be breathed in and also settle on surfaces. Lead oxide (fumes
mixed with air) forms a fine yellowish/brown dust. Even with
good ventilation you have 100% chance of lead dust in your
"Lead Area". Good hygiene and ventilation are the best way to
reduce lead exposure. The main hazard activities involve hot
lead - smelting, casting and handling dross (the contaminate
residue that is skimmed off in the melting process)."
lead hazards - MSU OEM


[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 00:01


Quote:
As far as why it burned down now-and not sooner-I'd say that some parts of it were made of materials (e.g. wood) which decompose on exposure to heat and, in air, evolve more heat secondary to that process. In nearly a millennium, this was the first time those materials were exposed, whether by accident or malice, to enough heat, followed by the effect continuing unnoticed and uninterrupted prior to the development of a heat release rate too high to be controlled by the means available on site. This unlucky series of events can sometimes be avoided for long periods of time by chance alone. Think of a huge number of ordinary houses. In all of America

[Quote]0.317% of households experienced a fire in 2010.
It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that a building with different construction and usage could have a fire accident rate 30 or even 10% of that, with it taking centuries for any given church to be destroyed by fire alone.

There seems to be a textbook example of Poe's law here. Jsum takes roguerose's post at face value. I take it as him outlining those opinions which he believes to be ridiculous.
'Churches never burn down':
http://www.altoonamirror.com/news/local-news/2017/07/firewor...
https://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Wakefield-Church-on-Fi...
https://www.wdio.com/news/lightning-church-piedmont-fire/498...
https://www.foxnews.com/us/fire-engulfs-massachusetts-church...
https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2018/12/20/our-...

Did an Islamic terrorist burn down the Paris Notre Dame Cathedral? Too soon to tell. A sneaky lone-wolf arsonist would not be any more capable of burning a supposedly fire proof building than a reconstruction accident would be. If a guy with 70L of gasoline and access to the wood members could have started the fire, than so could have a truck with a leaky fuel tank.

Regarding what I believe to be a sideways comment regarding a US congress member describing the misdirected portion of the backlash to the September 11 attacks, some people did:
this,this,this,this,this,this,this
this,this,this,this,this,this,
this,this,[Url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre]this[/url],this, and far more than I have time to name.

Some people did all of those things. Some more justified than others, some more evil than others, some on a much larger scale. But no religious group, race, nationality, etc participated in any of these as a whole. If 'a few Russians' or 'a few Buddhists' or 'a few US troops' did one of these things, is it fair to blame the whole? Saying "Some people" does not minimize the tradgedy, but just shows that a small group of people did it and that millions of others (including non Muslims) are being subjected to no-fly-lists, humiliating, sexualized airport "security screenings" unauthorized mass surveillance (Even I should be more careful what I write, I guess), imprisonment without due process, and endless wars waged "to fight terror."

If someone (preferably roguerose himself) can convince me that post really does mean rr thinks the burning of a major historical (and still in use until the fire) place of worship is inconsequential and "to be expected", then I'll still disagree with him, but I will delete my political garbage. And garbage it is-there is a reason I try not to post this kind of stuff on SM.

As far as why the smoke was yellow, maybe a trick of the light? Or an evaporation of some kind of paint or wood treatment? I don't have any good ideas there. If that was all lead compounds, well, lets just say that this might set a record for the worst heavy metal poisoning epidemic in France.
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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 00:42


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Actually, RR, this time I think it is you who needs a bit of perspective.
This is an 850 year old building which is old by even Parisian standards. There is a lot of history in those stones. It was considered worthwhile to undertake a many-millions restoration of the building (and not its first in all those centuries). Its loss is a tragedy. Not the same kind of tragedy as a loss of life but a tragedy nonetheless.


Actually I agree with RR here. It is an old building. Paying hundreds of millions to fix it is immoral imo when that money could be used to feed the starving. It's a topsy turvy world when 'christians' want to spend hundreds of millions on a building rather than actually helping people who are alive now and suffering.






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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 03:43


Quote: Originally posted by DrP  

Actually I agree with RR here. It is an old building. Paying hundreds of millions to fix it is immoral imo when that money could be used to feed the starving. It's a topsy turvy world when 'christians' want to spend hundreds of millions on a building rather than actually helping people who are alive now and suffering.


Mkay... And what if the building by itself generates some cash ? (It does)
Also... I know it's a little far fetch to imagine that people actually travel half the world to see Notre Dame but they do.
And when they do, they usually book a hotel room, visit the Louvres, have breakfast, lunch and for many of them dinner in the neighbouring "Quartier Latin".

In a few words, Notre Dame plays a big part in Paris attractivity abroad and I'll bet it will be fully renovated before the 2024 Olympics.

The comments about the color of the smoke (especially Morgan's) are very interesting.

Edit: One of France's rich and famous just commited 100 M Euros for the cathedral renovation.
Edit2: Another one... with 200M
Is it necessary to say that both are extremely talented venture capitalists ?


[Edited on 16-4-2019 by Herr Haber]
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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 05:00


My comments were architectural and historical rather than religious, political or economic.

I think I would consider it a tragedy if any 12th century building full of art went up in flames.
Whether it is worth the money, or what should be done in the way of restoration: that's another discussion and one that I lack the knowledge to offer much.

But to state or imply, "old building, who cares!" is a bit flippant.

On a chemistry note, 250 tons of molten lead dripping from the roof and upper storeys: that's gotta be a hazard worth respecting.




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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 05:19


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  

Mkay... And what if the building by itself generates some cash ? (It does)


Yea - Ok - I do get all that, I was playing advocate a little as you mentioned perspective. Where were the people lining up to rebuild the homes of the hundreds who lost everything in the Grenfield tower fire, for example? A guy on the radio this moring was sounding pretty pious about donating 100 million to restore this building... he could have actually helped real people with that money when they needed it the other year when their homes burnt down - where was the 'charity' then?

I get it needs rebuilding. But hundreds of millions of pounds on a religious artefact? The money could improve/save real peoples lives.

This is why I do not like charity - the money goes to whoever the whim of the owner of the cash most wants to support. Tax properly and you will not need charity as the money will be directed to those that really need it by mandate.






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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 05:44


DrP everyone has tge right to decide where to spend their money. some rich guy decided to donate 100M to repair Notre Dam, good for him and that church.
your idea is a bit strange, tax properly and you have the money to fix everything in a country? why not giving up the entire salary then? and just keep the essential to buy food and pay the bills? just giving money to the poor is not the best solution, if someoneis poor it's probably because he has a low salary job or no job at all, by giving him a better opportunity he can earn more. i can bet you here is full of people that lie about disabilities, properties, etc just to pay less and get more by the state. you overestimate people kindness and honesty, give 1000$ a month to a bunch of guys and look how many just stop working because they don't need it anymore.

yea i think the yellow smoke is probably lead oxide, it has the same color of when i smelted some lead dioxide in pure metal using a coal furnace





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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 06:16


Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  
tax properly and you have the money to fix everything in a country? why not giving up the entire salary then?


A - there'd ne no need
B - it would be unfair to the individual that works harder and earns more... sounds a bit like communism.

Not hard to do the maths and get the tax rates fair and right for all so that none actually need the 'charity' that rich people like give to so they feel righteous and good.




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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 06:45


@DrP: if you were raising funds for WWF you'd have an easiest time finding money to save the panda bears than say... to save the Aye-Aye of Madagascar.
Part of the reason is that everybody knows and loves pandas (and everybody knows Notre Dame) but nobody knows nor cares the Aye-Aye (Greenfield Tower) Plus, it's freaking ugly.

I do get your comment about charity. My comments about those 2 donors being also successful VC's implied that they were not only in for the salvation of their souls but certainly for immediate gain aswell.
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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 12:25


I think there's some inherent value in something like the Notre Dame well worth investing in. Things that generate awe and wonder and that cause people to WEEP as they burn have value. You could grumble at every person that visits the Louvre or every fan walking into a concert that they could be feeding the hungry instead or demand that national endowments towards arts and culture be stripped of funding, but at the end of the day we need something to make our existence on this rock worth living for.
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[*] posted on 16-4-2019 at 14:06


The Almacys had been in line to enter Notre Dame earlier in the day but opted to postpone their visit when the time slots for guided tours of the building filled up.

"We thought, 'We'll come back tomorrow,'" said Almacy, who arrived back to Notre Dame with his family shortly after the cathedral's 6:45 p.m. closing time and first noticed smoke from the blaze at approximately 6:50 p.m.

"Initially, there was no frenzy," said Almacy, who added that he did not see any fire engines for approximately 20 to 30 minutes. "There were a lot of sirens and a lot of police vehicles."

The situation became more serious at around 7:30 p.m. when Almacy described seeing "flames shooting out" of the building as "the smoke turned orange, then green, then dark black."

"We didn't know, was it an attack? Was it an accident?" He said. "We decided to move away and let the first responders and law enforcement do their work. Plus, we were having trouble breathing, our lungs were starting to hurt a little bit."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/notre-dame-fire-witness-the-sm...
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[*] posted on 17-4-2019 at 12:37


Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by myr  
The enormity of the tragedy cannot possibly be overstated, and I am only thankful that (to the best of my knowledge) no one was killed in the inferno. While I've read many of the quite literally priceless relics were saved, and the main structure is intact, the damage is still horrific. (The choice of emoticon in the thread title is... concerning.)

A more interesting question is what started the inferno, and why was the building so quickly and so rapidly was consumed by the fire? For 9 centuries and countless wars- including the French Revolution and WW2- the whole of the Cathedral has stood more or less intact. What was so special about the current circumstances that caused such damage?

[Edited on 16-4-2019 by myr]


Quit being such an alarmist! Who gives a shia about some old building... I'm sure it is just another case of "some people doing something" and nothing for you to be worried about. It's an old building, it's expexted. It's not like churches are often the ONLY building left standing in an entire towned that is bombed, ravaged by fire, hit by hurricane/typhoon/tornado, earthquakes, etc. It's not like there are hudreds of miraculous cases like that which science will just ignore as "location location location". So the burning of the most famous chruch in the world is really kind of expected (when you have "some people" in your country).


Right. The Human Experience is nothing but Carbon, Nitrogen, and Oxygen, nothing has meaning, and then you die.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2019 at 18:05


Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
So the burning of the most famous chruch in the world is really kind of expected (when you have "some people" in your country).


Would you like to clearly state what you mean by this before I misinterpret it?




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[*] posted on 17-4-2019 at 19:26


"Lead may affect the health of workers if it is in a form that may be inhaled (i.e. airborne particles) or ingested. In order for lead to be a hazard by inhalation, lead particles that are small enough to be inhaled must get into the air. There are three types of particles: dust, fume and mist. Lead dust consists of solid particles created through processes such as blasting, sanding, grinding, and electric or pneumatic cutting. Lead fumes are produced when lead or lead-contaminated materials are heated to temperatures above 500°C, such as welding, high temperature cutting, and burning operations. The heating causes a vapour to be given off and the vapour condenses into solid fume particles. Mists are made up of liquid droplets suspended in air. The spray application of lead-based paint can generate a high concentration of lead-containing mist."
https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/hs/pubs/lead/gl_lead_4....
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[*] posted on 17-4-2019 at 21:45


Given that it is/was a catholic cathedral, maybe the Vatican should stump up for the repairs. They're not short of a euro or two.



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