Methansaeuretier
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 24-5-2010
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: strongly alkaline
|
|
Reductive monomethylation with NaBH4 and aq. Formaldehyde
Hello
I'm searching for references and experiences for monomethylation of primary amines (in this case a
5-(sulfon-(N-methyl)amide-ethyl)tryptamine [I know this is not iupac]; target is the Naratriptane-derivate without the piperidyl-ring but with
3-ethyl-2-(N-Methyl)amine instead on the indole) with NaBH4 and aq. formaldehyde.
Is azeotropic destillation a way?
Has anyone ever performed something like that?
http://www.organic-chemistry.org/chemicals/reductions/sodium...
Naratriptane:
[Edited on 10-11-2010 by Methansaeuretier]
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
NaCNBH3 and MeNH2.HCl or aq MeNH2. STAB might work too. A number of other ways are available as well.. in solution with Zn/Hg or Al/Hg and MeNH2 gas
etc....etc....
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
Methansaeuretier
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 24-5-2010
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: strongly alkaline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by chemrox  | | NaCNBH3 and MeNH2.HCl or aq MeNH2. STAB might work too. A number of other ways are available as well.. in solution with Zn/Hg or Al/Hg and MeNH2 gas
etc....etc.... |
Its not as easy...
I have a tryptamine... MeNH2 does not work; Formaldyhde is the reagent of choice. And I think MeNH2*HCl does not work anyway, because I doesn't form
imines. Also NaCNBH3 may not work because it leads to dialkylation in this case. STAB is known to reduce indoles to indolines very fast and does not
work in aqueous solutions by the way because it's sensitive to moisture (aq. formaldehyde would not work). Al/Hg will overdo the job and should
produce crappy yields (indoline formation). I have no idea about Zn/Hg but it sounds also very messy.
Anything would lead to a mess or major side products.
[Edited on 6-12-2010 by Methansaeuretier]
|
|
|
jon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 459
Registered: 11-1-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: paranoid distrustful apprehensive
|
|
yeah do this form a shiff's base with bulky benzaldehyde quaternize it with methy iodide and hydrolyse it.
that should'nt cyclize too bulky i went over this shit before just wiki baldwin's rules for cyclization.
|
|
|
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
Only reductions that work under basic conditions are usable due to the Pictet-Spengler reaction, which is where tryptamines cyclize under acidic
conditions and the presence of aldehydes or ketones to form beta-carbolines. I believe this may preclude the usage of Al/Hg.
Why would NaBH3CN lead to the dialkylated product while NaBH4 wouldn't?
NaBH3CN is preferred as it isn't as quick to reduce a carbonyl as NaBH4, leading to higher yields from reductive aminations. Triacetoxyborohydride
also works well, is less toxic, and is simple to prepare from NaBH4.
Since we're already discussing potential alternative reductions, solo posted a paper earlier on the usage of zinc powder in 10% aq. NaOH to effect a
variety of reductive aminations. No tests were done with tryptamines, though I see nothing to suggest it wouldn't work.
I like jon's idea, but you'd need a good fumehood or glovebox to work safely with alkyl halides (potent carcinogens). If you do have such things, it
might be the best way.
[Edited on 6-12-2010 by madscientist]
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
Bolt
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 26-3-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Err, nice try but check Chem. Rev., 1995, 95 (6), pp 1797–1842, scheme 2. Cyclization can occur when benzaldehyde is used.
madscientist, the pictet-spengler condensation can also occur under conditions other than what most people would think of as "acidic."
|
|
|
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
It happens even in neutral conditions, I think - I should've specified that. I only have cursory background on that reaction. If there's more pitfalls
please do elaborate!
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
Methansaeuretier
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 24-5-2010
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: strongly alkaline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by madscientist |
Why would NaBH3CN lead to the dialkylated product while NaBH4 wouldn't?
NaBH3CN is preferred as it isn't as quick to reduce a carbonyl as NaBH4, leading to higher yields from reductive aminations. Triacetoxyborohydride
also works well, is less toxic, and is simple to prepare from NaBH4.
Since we're already discussing potential alternative reductions, solo posted a paper earlier on the usage of zinc powder in 10% aq. NaOH to effect a
variety of reductive aminations. No tests were done with tryptamines, though I see nothing to suggest it wouldn't work.
I like jon's idea, but you'd need a good fumehood or glovebox to work safely with alkyl halides (potent carcinogens). If you do have such things, it
might be the best way.
[Edited on 6-12-2010 by madscientist] |
First of all I don't like to work with methyl iodide and I think methyl carbonate or dimethyl oxalate do not work here...
NaBH4 does not lead to dialkylation, because it does reduce carbonyl groups faster than imines. If the imine is made first, for example by azeotropic
destillation and reduced with MeOH/NaBH4 any excess of aldehyde is removed by reduction and so no dialkylation can occur.
STAB does not work, because it does reduce indoles to indolines very fast and quantitative. See reference (first page): http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleFo...
There is one refernce for a monoalkylation of a tryptamine with STAB anda very bulky aldehyde, but another problem of STAB that it is very sensitive
to the water in aq. formaldehyde.
|
|
|
turd
National Hazard
Posts: 800
Registered: 5-3-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Methansaeuretier | | STAB is known to reduce indoles to indolines very fast and does not work in aqueous solutions by the way because it's sensitive to moisture (aq.
formaldehyde would not work). |
Are you sure that the same applies to tryptamines? IIRC there are some postings saying that STAB is quite unpredictable. Also I figure that
dialkylation is slower in Eschweiler-Clarke reactions, so the same might apply here. Therefore you might be able to obtain mono-methylated material.
In any case, be prepared to do many small-scale experiments and to use preparative chromatography.
See:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine2d...
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=61171
Of course these aren't the most reliable sources.
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
So, I scanned the article and thanks for that, glad I checked back in. Now can't you do it with NaBH4/formic?
@turd- one thing about the Rhodium article. He doesn't mention using acid. NaCNBH3 works best at a pH of around 6. I like to drop in con HCl or
ethereal HCl. Reax go a whole lot quicker.
[Edited on 15-12-2010 by chemrox]
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
I'm trying to upload a 760 kb pdf that could be helpful.
Attachment: php4kXsJf (716kB)
This file has been downloaded 679 times
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
