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Gary
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Security of reagent orders from chemical companies in this age of chemophobia, paranoia and the oppressive health and safety nanny state.......
I find amateur chemistry a fascinating hobby and would like to acquire some reagents. I have found a potential source- lp chemicals. What I would like
to know is this: I'm probably being paranoid (and who can blame me in this age of chemophobia, drugs, terror, paranoia, the 'elf and safety nanny
state), but would I be able to have reagents delivered to a domestic address (my home, in other words) without the definite liklihood of my door being
busted down by law enforcement a few days or weeks later? In the case of CHIP-compliant chemical goods sent by courier, does the courier have
knowledge of the contents inside the parcel, and if so, is there any chance that he/she would inform law enforcement of the fact that lab chemicals
have been delivered to a domestic address?
This nanny state and the chemically ignorant, paranoid general public
make my blood boil!
I reside in the United Kingdom, by the way.
[Edited on 11-11-2010 by Gary]
[Edited on 11-11-2010 by Gary]
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hissingnoise
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We all have a right to be paranoid - but we have no right to abuse that right . . .
Right?
Buying in small quantities should help keep you off their screens!
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Gary
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Of course, I'd never buy by the drumfull, but what would you define as a 'small quantity'? A litre of HCl? 500g of K dichromate?
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | A litre of HCl? 500g of K dichromate? |
Yeah, that's about right . . .
Na dichromate, BTW, is cheaper than the K salt.
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ScienceSquirrel
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Things like hydrochloric acid, sodium dichromate, etc have legitimate craft and hobby related uses.
Other important considerations are safe storage and avoiding bangs or smells coming from your property.
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Gary
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Should I trust the courier? Would the courier have any knowledge of the chemicals inside a package? After all, is'nt it a bit unusual to have
laboratory spec chemicals delivered to a domestic setting?
[Edited on 11-11-2010 by Gary]
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ScienceSquirrel
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Not really.
Keen film photographers who do their own developing, home brewers, potters, people who dye wool and plenty of others need chemicals.
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1281371269
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I'm also in the UK. My main source of chemicals (well, and everything else in life) is eBay and I've never had any problems with it. I've bought
chemicals from eBay including HCl (36%), H2SO4 (5L 98%), KI, metal powders, oxidisers, MeOH, DCM and more
LP Chemicals are fine but pricey: I have a bottle of HNO3 from them in my garage (bought from another sciencemadness user who vouched for the site).
eBay is again your best source for second hand quickfit items but if you'd prefer things new them timstar.co.uk does home brand jointed glassware of
good price and quality. Rapidonline.com is great for standard labware (Education > Science > Laboratory Equipment, or use the search function)
I'd add that I really see no point in being angry. Whilst I hate organisations such as the HSE as much as the next guy, this country's laws on private
chemical use are fairly liberal. Actually, considering what we're all subjected to by the media every day about bombs and terrorists and parcels and
Yemen, the status quo with chemicals is actually quite impressive.
And why do you expect the public to know anything about chemistry?
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ScienceSquirrel
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Really the HSE and some controls on chemicals are a necessary evil.
I have a 60 litre boiler that pulls 5kW when it is on full power in my home brewery / lab and I am planning on getting bigger.
Freedom city would be nice but for my own safety and the comfort and safety of others in the immediate area I have to accept controls.
Customs and Excise have been very reasonable so far, I am negotiating for a license to manufacture which will mean paying duty but the thought of paid
for pints going out of the door keeps me going!
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zed
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Here in the US.....Shipping companies do sometimes open parcels to inspect their contents. It doesn't usually happen, but it may.
They tell you right up front, in print, on your shipping receipt.
This policy predates 9/11. It just makes sense; the carrier has a right to know what it is transporting.
Don't get caught with your pants down.
http://www.drugs-forum.com/chemistry/chemistry/eleusis/memoi...
[Edited on 12-11-2010 by zed]
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Gary
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It is the criminal actions of drug cooks and terrorists which make it more and more difficult for
legitimate amateur chemistry enthusiasts to acquire reagents- acids, alkalis, oxidants, reducing agents, organics, inorganics and solvents. Not
forgetting to mention glasware (I think the Texan laws are very draconian to say the least!).
But, even here in the UK reagents are becoming increasingly more difficult to acquire. Our freedoms are being curtailed as a consequence of the
criminal actions of the minority.
[edit: cleaned up post]
[Edited on 12-11-2010 by madscientist]
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entropy51
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Quote: Originally posted by Gary  | It is the criminal actions of drug cooks and terrorists which make it more and more difficult for
legitimate amateur chemistry enthusiasts to acquire reagents- acids, alkalis, oxidants, reducing agents, organics, inorganics and solvents. Not
forgetting to mention glasware (I think the Texan laws are very draconian to say the least!).
But, even here in the UK reagents are becoming increasingly more difficult to acquire. Our freedoms are being curtailed as a consequence of the
criminal actions of the minority.
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Pretty obvous, huh? Lots of people in denial, however.
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madscientist
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Thread Moved
12-11-2010 at 07:22 |
madscientist
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The small minority responsible for our troubles is found in the government, not the assortment of drug cooks poisoning themselves and others with
poorly made garbage.
They declared a War on Drugs, incentivized illegal drug production, and placed restrictions on our field because of what inevitably followed from
their own actions.
Let it be clear that blaming drug cooks for our plight gets us nowhere. Think you can stop them? The government did too. Their "success" is
remarkable.
End the Drug War and we end the War on Chemistry. There is no other way.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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hissingnoise
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Well put, madscientist!
And by their actions around the globe they, inadvertently or otherwise, engineered the terrorist threat we all now face . . .
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: |
It is the criminal actions of drug cooks and terrorists which make it more and more difficult for legitimate amateur chemistry enthusiasts to acquire
reagents- acids, alkalis, oxidants, reducing agents, organics, inorganics and solvents. Not forgetting to mention glasware (I think the Texan laws are
very draconian to say the least!). But, even here in the UK reagents are becoming increasingly more difficult to acquire. Our freedoms are being
curtailed as a consequence of the criminal actions of the minority.
|
Jesus Christ! Such indoctrination! What came first, the criminal drug dealer or the law making him/her a criminal? How can you possibly say that it
is the criminal drug dealer's fault without looking at THE ROOT CAUSE? Regardless of whether or not you agree with the laws you absolutely cannot
deny that the actual causes are the laws.
The fact of the matter is most of the violence, pain and suffering could not exist without the laws banning drugs. I just don't understand how
anybody could deny this. Only a fool (i.e. someone who has a weak will or mind and has been indoctrinated by the prevailing popular opinion, notion
or rumor), in my opinion, would believe otherwise.
It's like blaming 9/11 solely on the original terrorists that committed the attacks, It's like saying a small child is solely, at fault for bad
behavior (as opposed to the parents): it's just not that simple.
The only thing that is even debatable without looking like a complete tool is: "Would there be more suffering due to potential, increased drug abuse
without drug laws?" This is a legitimate and intelligent question (compared to some others that are debated). I am under the impression that, not
only would it cut violent crime down to a fraction of what it is now, but it would cause less suffering in the long run and potentially save us a lot
of money.
On these matters, however, I am apt to change my mind if a convincing argument is presented, of course.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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anotheronebitesthedust
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Psychedelics help people to open their minds and think for themselves. The US government is dominated by Christians who brainwash their children into
believing the fabricated nonsense that is their religion. But it's not good enough to pass that fabricated nonsense onto their children, they want
EVERYONE to believe it. Funny how a religion that supposedly preaches tolerance and peace has such horrible track records with both.
Thinking for yourself and open-mindedness = big no-no for conservative religious countries. America is very conservative and religious. Middle East is
very conservative and religious. Unfortunately they believe in different Gods and so they murder eachother. They should all smoke a joint and relax.
Although we do get a lot of cool technology from war. Plus the world is getting kinda overpopulated...
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[Edited on 12-11-2010 by anotheronebitesthedust]
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe |
Jesus Christ! Such indoctrination! What came first, the criminal drug dealer or the law making him/her a criminal? How can you possibly say that it
is the criminal drug dealer's fault without looking at THE ROOT CAUSE? Regardless of whether or not you agree with the laws you absolutely cannot
deny that the actual causes are the laws. |
Those of us who were around as the laws were passed and then
broadened to include an ever increasing number of drugs know that the laws were passed in response to the availability of the drugs.
No government agency gave a shit about ether or piperidine or cyanide until PCP use became epidemic in the 1970's. I was around and watched it
happen, son. Long before your parents even started dating.
Your scenario would be that drugs are first scheduled and then the cooks say " Shit, I never thought of making that!"
The scenario was actually that the emergency rooms reported who was fvcked up on what, and the DEA responded by scheduling the stuff at the top of the
list of stuff that made people crazy. That's exactly how PCP was scheduled.
Frankly I couldn't care less if everyone sits around schnockered out of his mind. But the drugs came before the laws. And the drugs are the reason
that chemicals are watched.
You are entitled to your own opinions. But not your own facts.
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madscientist
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It's true - they rarely ban anything that hasn't become popular recreationally. If no one's using it, how can you run a scare campaign to gather
support for scheduling?
Acid makes you jump out windows. Cocaine kills you the first time. Amphetamines rot your teeth out in a week. GHB causes most date rapes. Pot makes
you grow boobs and turn gay.
Their repeated lack of honesty on newly popularized drugs suggests to me that they have always just been waiting for an excuse.
Anyway... regardless of the historical facts, the drug cooks cannot be stopped. The Drug War, however, is another story.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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anotheronebitesthedust
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Don't worry Entropy51, if I had spent 59 years believing bullshit propaganda, I probably wouldn't want to admit that it was in fact bullshit
propaganda either. No one likes to admit they are dummies.
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madscientist
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I don't think that's an accurate assessment of his character. He doesn't seem care too much for the Drug War.
I believe our sole disagreement to be on the idea that to make amateur chemistry socially acceptable again we need to lash out at drug cooks.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: | | Your scenario would be that drugs are first scheduled and then the cooks say " Shit, I never thought of making that!" |
That's what you think I meant? Read more closely please. The drug producers and marketers could not have been CRIMINALS until the laws were passed.
Once they became criminals and could no longer turn to the police to solve disputes, they resorted to the only thing that can settle disputes no
matter who you are: their own force. This, following its natural course, leads to violence. I seriously doubt drug pushers were any more
violent than any other business person before drugs were illegal (unless you're talking about the British government, for example).
What our government is really doing is saying that they prefer a bloody war over people getting high and POTENTIALLY causing an increase in
disturbances. What kind of sadistic bastards make such a choice? We don't want you to feel good because we don't feel like you deserve it so we'll
kill you (or destroy your life) or cause you to risk your life in order to get that good feeling.
It's fucking sick, in my opinion.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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entropy51
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Pardon me.
Now I understand. If there were no laws, there would be no criminals. But there would still be murderers, rapists, thieves, and so on wouldn't
there?
The question is not what makes people criminals, but rather "why can't we buy chemicals without getting into trouble?".
Sorry for trying to pull your rant back on topic.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe | What our government is really doing is saying that they prefer a bloody war over people getting high and POTENTIALLY causing an increase in
disturbances. What kind of sadistic bastards make such a choice? We don't want you to feel good because we don't feel like you deserve it so we'll
kill you (or destroy your life) or cause you to risk your life in order to get that good feeling.
It's fucking sick, in my opinion. |
Nothing potential here dude.
When I was a young medical student I had to attend the autopsy of a 9 year old boy who was brutally stabbed to death by his young mother while she was
high on PCP. I have never gotten over it.
The people who outlawed PCP performed a public service. I hope they received an award for doing so.
Someone is sick, but it was not the people who tried to get this crap off the streets.
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madscientist
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That is horrific.
However, outlawing it accomplished nothing that I'm aware of. Decades later, it's still widely available, and our beloved chemicals are not.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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entropy51
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I respectfully disagree, madscientist.
In this area, in those days, PCP was everywhere. It was more available than marijuana. Those types of atrocities were not uncommon. Neither were
ether explosions caused by manufacturers of PCP. The local branch of a major chemical supplier was closed down when they were implicated in the
supply of precursors.
As far as I know, PCP is rarely encountered here nowadays. I have not heard of a PCP related murder in probably over 10 years. Something certainly
had an effect.
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