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Author: Subject: Security of reagent orders from chemical companies in this age of chemophobia, paranoia and the oppressive health and safety...
quicksilver
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 07:01


As I remember it the "PCP period" was about the mid 70's though the mid 80's: I remember that time quite well. The low cost of the drug made it a VERY prominent thing is inner city drug abuse areas and was sold by (mostly) lower-level street dealers, especially high numbers of "gang-types" and middle-men small weight dealers. It had a very BAD rep from the start. It was often sold infused on mint leaves and smoked. At a street dealer level it was mostly sold on a liquid level as there it could be adulterated and pathetic profits made from the sale.
Most of the drug dealers who were making money stayed away from it as the margin was low; risk just as high and it was basically seen as an "ugly" drug by those who used drugs.
I believe that it put itself out of common usage. The people who synthesized it only needed one mistaken ingestion to never want to work with it again. The groups who sought entertainment from hallucinogens shied away as it had such a strong "out of body" feel that the user didn't "feel good or enlightened": they felt like they simply couldn't think.
It was basically a very cheap inner city drug that was likened to sniffing glue, etc. The sales were generally on the level of a dollar per mint-joint & a small vial of whatever was $20; there was no money there to attract the ruthless.

I was a college-kid at the time and had NO interest in it even as experimentation for a single experience as i continually saw really bad results from it's use on almost every occasion! To reiterate; it really put itself out of business. If available today, I actually doubt it could be sold to the drug using public.
It appeared all over the nation due to it's low cost. It obviously was an easy synthesis. In the Inner city and some rural areas; it's the cheap shit that reigns as drug sales. Look at crack (freebase) which was a $5 high, PCP ($1), Meth, which also sells for a VERY small amount in various forms. And if anyone is getting close to the big Six-Oh and remembers the 1960's there was the "nickle bags" of heroin. There was always something to fill the gap of the no-money drug users.

This was the reason I saw the TV show "Breaking Bad" as SO essentially evil and destructive. It viewed chemistry in a very ugly light, it's "stars" were the idiot and the selfish, unthinking & grotesquely immature " teacher". And it's message was that chemistry at home equals narcotics; period. no one would practice chemistry outside of a professional setting for any reason other than to make drugs.
The concept of chemophobia, Was more deeply elicited by that show alone, than several major incidents in life. It piped it's fear and loathing into (perhaps) millions of homes each week.

PCP was plenty ugly alright - perhaps one of the ugliest things to come along in my memory; but I believe there will always be something to fill that void of low-level street sales. Gang members were entranced by the money made from Crack and will never give that up. Even if Crack become passe', those same "people" will find another cheap money maker from somewhere.
A person who will blindly shoot up a occupied home risking the life of an infant will never consider what harm they do. That's exactly why I believe that there really ARE some who should be kept from society and perhaps on a totally permanent basis. I simply don't buy the line that a 16yr old doesn't know what death is and should be given another chance when he is in the prime of his life.


[Edited on 27-11-2010 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 11:43


Quote: Originally posted by SelfStarter  
Entropy, your assertions about there being a rash of PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that capability.

I suggest you read this book and watch this video as they both come from an author who unlike you, has done a lot of RESEARCH on the subject.
You know zilch about my research, son. You think I learned everything I know on the net, like you apparently did?

I was treating these poor devils freaked out on PCP (and all the other crap you guys idolize) in big city emergency rooms before you were born.
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 11:50


Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
I believe that it put itself out of common usage.
No it didn't, at least not in the two large east coast cities where I've lived.

It was displaced by crack cocaine,

As the number of ER cases of whacked out PCP users went down, the number of cases of crack heads went up. It was strikingly obvious to those of us looking at the tox screens.
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 15:06


I really do understand your passion but actually that is what I wrote in my post (contextually): that it was displaced by Crack.



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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 17:26


Entropy you are always so spot on. I have to say I also agree with a point Quicksilver made about that damn show. My best friend is a state trooper who loves that show. We have arguments about it often. Hell he even kept bugging me to watch so I could see his LEO fascination with it. I did so he would shut up about it and leave me alone. On that subject at least, as I said he is my best friend in everything else. After several episodes I explained to him just what is being said here as far as how the show is instilling a public fear mindset towards people like me. He said he sees my point but he still loves the show. Of course he also never misses that biker show whatever the name of it is I forget. Hate it. Hate them both. They are destroying like a thousand cuts a day my love of creating by removing one by one every damn thing we need to build or create with.

Oh yeah I forgot QS but I agree, crack is what did it starting in the early 80's.


[Edited on 11-28-2010 by IrC]




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[*] posted on 30-11-2010 at 08:35


I think it might be important for us to understand the thinking of many law enforcement types. I know that thinking quite well for many of my family (& some friends also) have been involved.
Many (not all of course) of the people drawn to law enforcement are people of view the world in harsh black and whites; & while there certainly IS Good & Evil, etc - there are some areas of gray as many of us know.

Many of those personalities are looking for a sound structure to their lives and the world around them. They may have seen or experienced things early on that made them very uncomfortable with a lack or Structure; of order to the way people behaved. This makes some people seek out structure in a very defined way. It's similar to career military folks.
It's not a shortcoming; it's simply a means to find order in a world that has very little [justice or order].

Why should a baby suffer either by the hand of man or through disease? Why should any innocent receive injustice? These are unanswerable questions and in observing them early in life; they create a feeling of discord, anxiety, anger, and fear. That is a very natural reaction. So a person in that position may seek out order and therefore a delineated "law" or set of rules become VERY attractive because they give comfort in a very uncomfortable world.

Others may seek out Religion for somewhat similar reasons. This is NOT a value judgment but simply my opinion.

Then there is a reinforcement of this as the individual observes the injustices time and again. Certain things happen at that point and some people harden their personal philosophy of world view, while others become very tired of the pain, discord, & lack of balance.

Take a moment and find out what professions have the greatest suicide rates. While the results are not startling; they are indicative of a person caught in a setting where they yearn for balance.
That may be one of the tragic flaws of the human condition: the desire to set things right.



[Edited on 30-11-2010 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 1-12-2010 at 14:43


Quote:

and all the other crap you guys idolize


Okay entropy, although I disagree with you often I still, most of the time, see your arguments as rationally coherent and I respect that.

However, things like this just rub me the wrong way. It seems like you are saying anyone who doesn't have your hardcore, anti-drug view somehow "idolizes" PCP or any other drug for that matter.

I do not idolize drugs. I do not use illegal drugs. I despise most drugs just because I don't like the way they make me feel (especially alcohol). How can you imply that I (if I am, in fact, part of "you guys") idolize drugs?

I CAN say, for example, that some might be able to use illegal drugs without doing harm to themselves or others. Rationally, I believe that is a sound argument. But I feel that your anti-drug "passion" sometimes precedes your rationallity. You might dismiss this as not true, perhaps because you don't want it to be, although it certainly is--it just has yet to be quantified in a reliable way.

Long story short: I think your emotional experiences with drugs cause you to respond irrationally without later admitting that the response was, indeed, irrational.




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[*] posted on 1-12-2010 at 14:56


Since you had a bad bump on the head, I'll repeat it one more time, slowly, so that you might finally understand:
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Frankly I couldn't care less if everyone sits around schnockered out of his mind. But the drugs came before the laws. And the drugs are the reason that chemicals are watched.
You Millenials sure are touchy.
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[*] posted on 1-12-2010 at 15:04


There's a lot of talk that SM is overly tolerant of drug related topics. I suggest that these individuals take a gander at some of the more popular drug forums, and see what they have to say about us. It's usually along the lines of "what a bunch of uptight assholes."

On that note, I can't recall PCP ever being mentioned in a positive light here.

IrC: The National Institute on Drug Abuse is not what I'd consider credible. They exist solely to justify the CSA. I will not debate the unhealthiness of PCP - but please do cite more objective sources.




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[*] posted on 1-12-2010 at 18:14


You probably have a point M.S.. However I am not sure what sources out there you can trust anymore, especially in this internet age. Honestly I just searched the subject and used one of the 'more respectable looking' sources. If you have some ideas of sources post it and I will do a little looking around at what they have for information. All that aside I do have years of stories from many people which justify the negative light on PCP, yet as you mention posting here requires some solid and accurate sources. Just hard to tell reading online when they have respectable sounding credentials if in fact they are a source worth quoting.

My bad.




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[*] posted on 1-12-2010 at 18:36


Well, IrC, it might be correct information, but it's like making arguments for gun control and quoting the Brady Center. Technically there is nothing wrong with it, I suppose, but it lends more credibility to the argument to use more "unbiased" sources.
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[*] posted on 1-12-2010 at 19:43


Quote: Originally posted by Mister Junk Pile  
Well, IrC, it might be correct information, but it's like making arguments for gun control and quoting the Brady Center. Technically there is nothing wrong with it, I suppose, but it lends more credibility to the argument to use more "unbiased" sources.


Actually you are doing precisely the same thing Mr Pile. You are claiming the source is biased with no evidence to prove it. Cite your source proving my source is biased. Then cite your source proving your source of relative bias information is itself credible. I mean not biased. I could have used this on M.S. but the difference is in my eyes He has standing and therefore credibility. I could be 'biased' however.

Yet I find I must draw the line with your post. Look carefully at what you just said. Utterly meaningless. You are saying Edison's light bulb may be good on paper but it can never produce light unless Edison has a degree on paper proving his 'credibility' to the world. Truth contains it's own intrinsic credibility with neutral bias and therefore needs no paperwork to go with it. Or anyone's opinion.

Have you found a reliable list online which proves the relative bias of all information sources so one can avoid all the 'bad places', and if so provide the URL so I can determine whether or not it is biased or unbiased itself before I use it.







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[*] posted on 4-12-2010 at 19:34


How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post? I'd say a source is biased when they have an agenda other than the simple dissemination of information. I don't feel any sources are needed to determine something that is "common knowledge". For example, I don't need to give you sources when I say a horse is a mammal in an informal setting.

Seriously, what was with that reply? I'm doing exactly the same thing? What??
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[*] posted on 5-12-2010 at 16:30


How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?

Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the hell are you? You made the same mistake MS did. I was just being nice to him but I feel I do not need to with you. MS failed to show any evidence for the 'bias' he claims in my source. Neither did you and you were not in the conversation. http://www.nida.nih.gov/researchers.html

My source. Staffed with doctors and scientists. Before you wish to call them biased you should prove it. MS only said they 'serve' the 'CSA' with no further information. What CSA?

Community Supported Agriculture?
CSA International?
Casting Society of America?
www.csa.com/?
Certified Senior Advisor?
child support agency?
csa airlines? OK, it must be the
canadian space agency! at least science is in there somewhere.

Your point involves the Brady Center. Myself I am for guns, but if I wanted to hear an opposing view I do not see why the words of a crime victim who actually was shot would be a poor source. If we cannot listen to the words of someone who got shot about gun control then just exactly what would be a credible source for it? Some flaming liberal weenie who has never even held a gun? I have A - been shot at more than once, and B - been shot myself. Yet I believe we should own guns to defend ourselves. Do points A and B show I should also be considered a 'biased' source either for or against gun control?

My point being if you feel you have the right to lecture me then prove it.

[Edited on 12-6-2010 by IrC]




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[*] posted on 5-12-2010 at 17:17


Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
This was the reason I saw the TV show "Breaking Bad" as SO essentially evil and destructive. It viewed chemistry in a very ugly light, it's "stars" were the idiot and the selfish, unthinking & grotesquely immature " teacher". And it's message was that chemistry at home equals narcotics; period. no one would practice chemistry outside of a professional setting for any reason other than to make drugs.
The concept of chemophobia, Was more deeply elicited by that show alone, than several major incidents in life. It piped it's fear and loathing into (perhaps) millions of homes each week.


... in glorious 1080p high definition.

Look at the bright side. At least you can sit back and chuckle to yourself that the media-biased chemophobia we have all grown to love and adore (sic) was adapted into a high budget enterprise with award winning actors, in quality fit for Blu-Ray, and went on to win six (6) Emmy Awards.

No, seriously, laugh at the gullible people that actually thought chemistry was just for drugs and bombs after watching that show; only to walk off and cook dinner on Teflon coated pans with gas hotplates, and take an antacid tablet for indigestion.
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[*] posted on 6-12-2010 at 00:05


Quote:
Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?

Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the hell are you?


Seriously? You don't know who the hell he is? Please IrC Think about that for perhaps a minute or two and tell me if this person has ONLY 30 some post or if hes perhaps someone that has much time put into this forum.... If you still feel hes a new commer after much thought has been put into it then....well ok....





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[*] posted on 7-12-2010 at 11:34


And real talent went broke.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d49m6G9vOrI
One good reason to pay less and less attention to actors, post-modern impressionists, & what we call music today.




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[*] posted on 7-12-2010 at 12:37


Quote:
Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
How the hell did you draw such strange conclusions from my post?

Simple. Because you made your post. You come in here as a 'newbie' of only 34 posts, lecturing me about the credibility of my information. Who the hell are you?


Seriously? You don't know who the hell he is? Please IrC Think about that for perhaps a minute or two and tell me if this person has ONLY 30 some post or if hes perhaps someone that has much time put into this forum.... If you still feel hes a new commer after much thought has been put into it then....well ok....


Kindly enlighten us as to who it is, then.




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[*] posted on 1-1-2011 at 12:51


the events and numbers haven't really changed that much. still a ton of drugs out there. still murderers and rapists that operate independently of the drug situation. what has changed is the availability of information. the 1940's and '50's etc that enjoy their reputations as a "peaceful golden age" in america just didn't have the internet and rabid news media outlets to spread the disgusting stories as far as they go today. the same shit happened. it just seems worse because we all hear about it now as opposed to a select few. that tragic regional story of a kid stabbed by a whacked out mother is what would now be an overnight, viral, international news sensation where 40 years ago it may not even make it past state lines.



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[*] posted on 1-1-2011 at 14:11


What? A thread on PCP while I was out of town? Dirty tricks! :D
Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
I have to disagree PCP is a drug that makes the person act like a schizophrinic and will degrade them on a deeper level. I have had experiances with it and where as I have not had any desire in the slightest to abuse it I can very well see how it could drive someone to murder someone they would not normally do so.

So I guess we are the only two people on this thread who actually tried PCP. It's really amusing to read all the bickering of people who haven't even tried it! Lol. My group's experiences (20 mg of the HCl salt, pure by NMR, intranasally, a colleague couldn't resist when he got hold of a bottle of piperidine :P) seem to be different from yours and very much confirm MagicJigPipe and wikipedia. I spare you the details, but IMHO no way a "normal" person could get violent on a strong PCP trip, but rather the opposite is true. At first you are too far out for something like violence to even exist and when coming back the proportions of everything are so wrong that you have other priorities than getting aggressive (like learning to speak again). The problem probably arises when clueless/hysterical people treat spaced out people the wrong way - just let them come back, in one or two hours everything is fine.

The only reason I can imagine why this drug was popular is *because* of the stupid media brouhaha and maybe as a short-lived fad. Seriously, this is not useful as a party drug (and neither is ketamine). And of course this is the reason it is not around anymore - much better party drugs abound. Production of PCP and analogues cannot be controlled by law, because chemistry is so terribly trivial. All you need is PhBr, Mg or Li, a random amine and cyclohexanone. With that you can produce kg batches at dose levels of 20 mg.

The "war on drugs" was lost a long time ago. If only they'd finally admit it. :P
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[*] posted on 6-1-2011 at 14:58


There is no question that the "war on drugs" was lost nearly from the Harrison Narcotics Act because just as prohibition; there will always be a segment of society that will demand to alter their natural state of thinking, conciseness, mental processing & by dealing with the "object" we waste our time.

However we have an investment in the "war on drugs"; both monetary & societal. We also have a reality of those who have a deep emotional impact from a tragedy wherein altered states of mental acuity were involved and that is VERY understandable.
Rhetorically, asking whether drugs are "good or bad" is similar to asking whether RDX is good or bad. The object obviously does not make an impact on society; it's use does. But just as one cannot stop a chemical from existence, one cannot stop metallic objects from forming weapons, etc.

The discussion is aimed at the wrong agenda. If it's guns or drugs; the shit exists and it doesn't go away via legislation. Is Mexico City a violent place? They have some damn strict gun laws. Is Japan drug free?
Our "drug Prohibition is entrenched for MANY reasons. What has NOT happened is many damn positive things from it. Would "treatment on demand" make a difference? Who fucking knows; becasue in the USA we have a frolicking "Treatment Industry" that makes real $ off of getting someone into a classic narcissistic format of pseudo-science called substance-abuse therapy.

We have looked at this subject from a microscope and with sunglasses but the prescription doesn't fit - and hasn't for decades. The few people with balls enough to conceive that there may be brain chemistry issues in place (either fore or after drug ingestion over a protracted period) have not had an opportunity to examine a worthwhile solution because there wouldn't be any $ in it and there certainly wouldn't be any votes.

So, we know that what HAS been attempted has had little result - why do we continue to tread the same tired old path? We all know the answer.
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[*] posted on 9-2-2011 at 03:12


I hate posting in old threads but as this turned into a drug crap-storm and has I believe not enough voices on the side of caution.

First on Chemophobia, I'm a beekeeper by hobby, tell someone you work with a million stinging insects and they get nervous. Tell them you have a hive in your backyard in addition to several outside the city and they will blame you anytime they get stung (don't even start on me about bees, proper beekeepers don't keep angry bees, people stung anywhere near me are likely not my bees and/or wasps). Chemistry is almost no different (the similarities are striking, run out of patience with either and/or be unprepared and you will hurt/die) most people are totally ignorant of it and ignorance is treated with fear.

Don't try to change other people, you can't. My family LOVES the honey and cheap candles, think I can get any of them to help me? Hells no. Change yourself, keep all chemicals in proper storage when not in use have an MSDS list of what you have and have EVERYTHING labeled correctly. If randomly the cops show up one day on something unrelated and with a warrant search your house (highly unlikely especially if you keep mum about your goings on) they would probably freak out and call the bomb squad who would arrive and look at the msds lists you have, verify safety, and MAY leave without taking everything(assuming no explosive materials are found).

Finally regarding drugs and the human mind. I've walked through my own mind with many of the mentioned chemicals the intent WAS that inward trip. Further I wanted to experience the cascade within my own brain. I can't imagine the fear someone (who was handed random drugs and took them) would experience in that same situation not knowing why they were seeing things. Pcp is used for sedation/anaesthetic it WILL dissociate you with the world meaning you aren't going to feel like its the real world. It induces a situation where the brain should be asleep, horrific waking nightmares, wetting oneself (already mentioned). People have torn all the ligaments in their arms trying to lift things that normally their brain would signal it's a bad idea and or moved things crazy heavy like cars because with adrenaline pumping but no pain response (or higher brain function, its sedated) the human body is amazing/dangerous.

"But I think what we are debating is the complete change of someone's personality (i.e. from pretty normal to baby murderer). I just don't think it happens all too often."
It's called a Psychotic break (it can be permanent) and I have seen it turn a normal person into one who now suffers lifetime schizophrenia. Some peoples minds are either that fragile or just vulnerable to that drug/state. In the above case it's a now family member of a person who married my sister. The guy is just weird and he only did coke and meth mixed (there was no easy way to put that, mixing drugs like that is insane, plus don't do either, coke can explode your heart and meth, well I like having sinus passages NOT eroded into passage). Both less crazy (subjective) than pcp. His mind couldn't take it, he was found a couple days later covered in his own filth crying behind a dumpster. Never been the same since. He was given them mixed at a party. Drug laws exist so we all don't end up the same.

"PCP related violence is ridiculous. Drugs don't make people violent. Drugs do not have that capability."
I just laughed so hard after reading this I needed to reply. Yes that pesky (drug) testosterone in males doesn't cause fits of rage when taken by bodybuilders.

"The problem probably arises when clueless/hysterical people treat spaced out people the wrong way - just let them come back, in one or two hours everything is fine."
Yeah clueless, like say cops at a nightclub, hey whats wrong with that guy ? Which takes me back to the above mentioned dude flipping a car on his own, that didn't stop him either. He came at the cops and they had to gun him down. "Spaced out people" ARE clueless and often hysterical mix that with fear and you have a bad situation for all involved. Your talking about someone who may think your a friking alien and has both the strength and the will to tear your alien arms off. The argument the cops shouldn't have shown up either has no merit anyone that out of it was a danger to all around him, a bad note from a band could have set him off. It's fortunate the ones who set him off had the capability to stop him. You can't taze someone like that either, adrenaline helps to protect the nerve pathways from things like electric shock. Plus guy flips a car and runs at you screaming... that's the start of a zombie movie.

I like my green plant that I very much enjoy smoking so I'm not saying all drugs are bad. However starting down a path without questions and intelligence isn't science or even research.

Messages not quoted directly because I'm lazy.
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[*] posted on 9-2-2011 at 11:42


Yeah, apparently PCP really does cause psychosis - in people not taking it. :P
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Regolith
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[*] posted on 9-2-2011 at 23:32


Yes, you are one of the people I'm laughing at :) I wanted to be nice to you but since you decided to poke your head up I'll point and laugh. :D

Here I did an edit cause your myopic view of the world can't google apparently.
Here is a dad high on PCP who ATE one of his kids eyes and tried to get the other as well as attempted to hack off his own foot with an axe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsSSpPZbFtY&feature=playe...

Here's a guy who just laid down on the street and got run over. high on pcp
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/08/jersey_city_man_l...

and here is a HIV positive guy who ran naked and bleeding through a church, high on pcp
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a92_1244393707

WOW those were hard to find. Bust out your google and brain next time before wasting my time.

It's a sedative hellooo, duh, with higher brain function SEDATED you don't do normal things. Arguing this point shows you don't have higher brain functions to start with.



[Edited on 10-2-2011 by Regolith]
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a_bab
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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 01:21


@Turd: You tend to to rely on your own experience. But when it comes to dopes the ways it reacts with people could be quite different, just as any other drugs. What a certain chem could be an effective drug to the most, it would possibly kill a few due to an allergic response, or it may not be effective at all for some. Hell, just read the instructions of ANY med. There are so many side effects that you'd be scared.

Moreover, when dealing with mind altering stuff it gets worse, as we are getting into "mind side effects", which could manifest in an unpredictible way just as Regolith stated very clearly.

Just accept the fact that while PCP turns you and your party mates into trippy vegetables sitting in a corner, others may want to take off because THEY KNOW they can do it. From the 5'th floor.
Oh, sorry. It MUST be all just media BS.

If you judge things based on your limited experience, your judgement cannot be otherwise then limited.



Also I cannot help myself not noticeing the fact that some members not only openly show off they are into making dopes, but also discuss about the effects.
The more time passes, the more this forum starts to desintegrate before my eyes into cells, hexagonally shapped, all bound together, with the happy bees buzzing around.

Poor Sauron, he was right.

[Edited on 10-2-2011 by a_bab]
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