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Author: Subject: Those who accidentally killed themselves on Roguesci.org?
dawson01912
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shocked.gif posted on 26-11-2010 at 10:50
Those who accidentally killed themselves on Roguesci.org?


I was browsing through archives and was rather shocked by how reckless people treated AP and other primaries. 200, 500, 800g APAN charges........
Those roguesci.org members who I suspect are not around are:

ShockWave
DBSP

I also read on here that "fone" blew himself up(kid from Sweden, Umea), but the problem is there was nobody named "fone" in the archive......at leat not in AP/APAN threads. I think "fone"'s name was ShockWave, because Shockwave stopped posting after Jan 2004, and the kid reportedly blew himself up on February 21, 2004 at night.


Anyhow, just wanted to see if anybody had info about those or other fallen pyros.
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 12:52


We remember them well - it's just their names we've forgotten . . .

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dawson01912
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 15:17


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
We remember them well - it's just their names we've forgotten . . .



SMH...... if the screen name is not numerical, you should remember it!
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 15:42


the spelling is "phone" that's why you haven't found him
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 15:57


Phone's post before he killed himself that weekend are definitely on the E&W archive. See "Storing the AP" on the archive and you'll see his post...

===========================================
phone
February 21st, 2004, 07:08 AM
i wonder if in europe there is anyone that uses mehenamine for fire tablets or other things..i found only petrol derivate tablets...


Yeah. They´re german, I don´t have the pack right here, but it´s almost pure methanamine (or how you now spell that lame word). You just solve it in aceton and you get it pure (or was it water) I haven´t really memorized it since I am an AP lamer (but I do own a pack with methanamine), HMTD is nutting for me :P, but hey, first time I did AP I did 80 grams, second 120 grams, third time (yesterday, drying today) something about a kilo or more... :P I GONNA BLOW MY FRICKING ARMS OFF! And yeah, I don´t treat AP with respect, but well, I got plenty of cold, snow and ice outside so my AP is usually quite resistant against pressure e.tc. Well, right now my brain feels like weird, I gonna have to put up a few lamps e.tc. (it dried overnight, switched the newsspaper it was on) and I think I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well, my moms out of the weekend, that´s why I am sitting here with over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I spam... but.. hey! :P Well.


Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of kílos AN coming up.
===========================================

Now, that was Feb 21st. Now we look at this thread posted on Feb 22nd:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1570

Pretty damn shocking, aye?

For a second, I thought I was in the wrong when people use 'fone' instead of 'phone'. Perhaps he posted on the other boards as that, but I was under the impression he was always 'phone'.

But yeah, back in the day people made kilos of AP. It's quite amusing to actually see "What's the biggest AP charge you've made?" talk pre-2000 and find people making those ridiculous amounts. I'm sure there's a lot of them who have died over the years.

There's also "RC" also known as Petri Gerdt who was a member of E&W and who killed himself from a bomb in a shopping mall.
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dawson01912
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 16:42
Phone


Yeah, I found his posts. Wow.........

Here's another post he made that week on Thursday:
===========================================

phone
February 17th, 2004, 01:35 PM
Well, I am quite a newbie, I just make some explosives and blow em up for fun, and well, if I´m going to be honest, I don´t even bother going somewhere deserted, I just blow em up in the local park.

Well, I gotta ask i couple of questions, I made some other stuff and so,
but what I need help with is this:

"What quantity aceton/peroxid shall I have?"

I don´t really know, what I do is that I take a lot of snow in a bucket, take an icecreampack on 2L and put it in the bucket in the snow, then I put 4 parts H2O2 and 3 parts aceton and 0.1-1 part acid (depending on conc., sort e.tc.) Usually like 1 part 30% HCI.. (I read this is "Swedish Infomania")
It´s colder then 5C, that´s one for sure, but I´ve heard you get some unstable shit with stuff made over 5C so I try to cool it nice. (this one I read here somewhere).

Is this seriusly wrong or? And when I distill it I just take an eternity-coffeefilter and filter it a long time so I don´t get some acid reacting lame, and all the materials I use is in plastic. And this weekend I want to make like somewhere around 700AP and take a lot of AN and do some APAN :) But well, I could get some expertise :D And well, I think I could need the help of a pro or someone who really has read on, ´cause there are some people on this forum that just doesn´t.. Seem to know what they talk about (As I don´t am like that :( :P)


[Edited on 27-11-2010 by dawson01912]



[Edited on 27-11-2010 by dawson01912]
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 17:51


All my life I've done stupid shit with commercial explosives, dynamite, cutting open 60 year old German shells, and even some French ones from 1.WW with hacksaws, commercial TNT, penthrite and such. My luck, nothing gone bad, but those were purified explosives meant for handling, not shitty AP even to sensitive to use..

My opinion is, that a Darwin's Award was given... Do not misunderstand me, do not suggest they deserved it, but one must ALWAYS calculate the risk and take necessary precautions when handling something dangerous....

Addendum: Explosives are a stupid way to do amateur chemistry, as they are some of the most commercial ones and anything worth discovering is already discovered 100 years ago. just to have it said.....


Bahamuth (lame name i know..)




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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 18:31


^I agree. I messed around alot with AP, HMTD, NG and ETN, and most foolishly had about 2 kilos of AP in one container just sitting there for a 3 months!! About 6 months ago i destroyed all the explosives i had( i did not det. them), because i finally calculated the risk and decided that i did not want to risk killing myself or living with a explosives inflicted injury. I no longer have any desire to make explosives, i didn't think i was a kewl back then but in retrospect i was. I now enjoy chemistry much more than i did back then. But if i never experimented with explosives i wouldn't have alot of the reagents i have now, so i don't regret a thing. Im just very thankful that i never ever had an accident with explosives and i don't feel like pushing my luck ever again.
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 18:46


See, every time I talk about lab safety, some hotshot kid thinks that I really mean, "Neuter your chemistry lab and only mix vinegar and baking soda." What I really mean is that messing around with 2 kg, 1 kg, 500 g, or even 50 g of organic peroxides is reckless, dangerous, and pretty pointless in the end.

Really, who wants to be killed or maimed working on something that's neither novel nor advancing science in any way? We on this forum might not forget about the dudes who've blown themselves up or been poisoned, but the rest of society and history will.

[Edited on 11-27-10 by DDTea]




"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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dawson01912
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 18:52


Quote: Originally posted by Justin  
^I agree. I messed around alot with AP, HMTD, NG and ETN, and most foolishly had about 2 kilos of AP in one container just sitting there for a 3 months!! About 6 months ago i destroyed all the explosives i had( i did not det. them), because i finally calculated the risk and decided that i did not want to risk killing myself or living with a explosives inflicted injury.


2kg of AP sat for 3 months in a single container? WTF!

You were just as bad as Phone. I've never nitrate any explosive except ETN.
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dawson01912
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 19:07


@DDTea

I see it differently. As long as there's internet, people can always learn about Phone and Myfanwy94 and others. They're almost like martyrs for "what not to do" for future newbes to learn from. They were reckless, but you can still be empathetic to them cause they paid the ultimate price....banned from life.

[Edited on 27-11-2010 by dawson01912]

[Edited on 27-11-2010 by dawson01912]
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DDTea
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[*] posted on 26-11-2010 at 19:18


Quote: Originally posted by dawson01912  
@DDTea

I see it differently. As long as there's internet, people can always learn about Phone and Myfanwy94 and others. They're almost like martyrs for "what not to do" for future newbes to learn from. They were reckless, but you can still be empathetic to them cause they paid the ultimate price....banned from life.

[Edited on 27-11-2010 by dawson01912]

[Edited on 27-11-2010 by dawson01912]


You can be empathetic, definitely. It's all very sad.

However, the whole concept of "what not to do" misses the point. Those discussions tend to be along the lines of, "He had an accident because he was drying AP under a heat lamp," or, "Your batch blew up because you were using plastic equipment and a static discharge occurred."

Everyone always thinks that they know more than they do and that accidents won't happen to them. After all, they've read all the "What not to do" accounts/articles and are pretty sure they know what they're doing. Teenagers, especially, have this sort of invincibility complex. Combine that with explosives that will go off with a hair trigger and it's asking for trouble.

But then, we already knew this. So having people blow themselves up as a testament of "what not to do" is the ultimate waste, not the ultimate sacrifice that being a 'martyr' would imply.




"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 00:32


@DDTea

I do wonder what caused that particular accident....besides the presence of 800g of AP or APAN. It had to most likely have been some random fuse spark when he was lighting it. Although static in winter is a possibility too.

Let new pyros know about those kids like Phone who had to be collected piece by piece. It makes it a lot more real reading his posts, knowing he'll die that same day. If only someone had given Phone a real example of accident that Saturday instead of saying "you'll hurt yourself and you're kewl".

We can not bring them back, but their stories can help prevent similar accidents if told right.


Folks, we need more stories like that! User names, please!

[Edited on 27-11-2010 by dawson01912]
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 06:52
Armstrong's Mixture


At age 16, I managed to blow off my eyebrows with that one. Haven't worked with it
ever since. And it was only 2 grams total ! The lesson for me is that primaries are far
too sensitive to work with. I'll stick to standard pyrotechnics.




Power comes from the barrel of a gun !
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 07:13


I found Myfanwy . . .
He was here for only a few months.
And just 16 years old . . .

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/member.php?action=viewpro...

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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 07:55


If we want to avoid that members blow themselves up in future, why are topics like the MEKP-thread allowed ? the thread contains receipts to make +50 ml MEKP. At least a big warning with accident-examples should be added in the first post, and a description of an easy and safe alternative way to det (maybe in a sticky as well)
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 08:32


I don't think warnings are gonna do any good IMO. These are teens, they don't care! Hell.. adults don't listen well either! I'm probably a good example! I still make AP, the only thing that's changed is quantity. I only make enough for a couple blasting caps at a time and destroy what's left over, I don't store it. The convenience of having some ready next time you need it isn't worth the risk of making bigger batches and storing the shit.
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[*] posted on 27-11-2010 at 14:05


@Lord Emrone

Wattup! ;)
Yeah, I agree, with every explosive should be a disclaimer with a story about how this and that member died. I would much rather have kids nitrating ETN and blowing it up with FP in copper pipe casing, which isn't the safest option, but still beats most peroxides and some primaries(this is actually 95% reliable, but not advised). Promoting use of annmal, and ammonal and even annm would make things much safer. Nitromethane isn't that hard to get and most kids can get Al.
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[*] posted on 28-11-2010 at 07:45


Quote: Originally posted by gnitseretni  
I don't think warnings are gonna do any good IMO. These are teens, they don't care! Hell.. adults don't listen well either! I'm probably a good example! I still make AP, the only thing that's changed is quantity. I only make enough for a couple blasting caps at a time and destroy what's left over, I don't store it. The convenience of having some ready next time you need it isn't worth the risk of making bigger batches and storing the shit.



I think you're right on the money! I wrote something here and deleted it; wrote something else and deleted it. Fuck it.

There is an old saying that goes something like this:
"When you're 6 your father knows everything, when you're 12 you find your father doesn't know all things, when your 16, your father knows nothing at all.
When you're 24 you find your father know some things about the world and at 40 you wish you could talk some things over with your father".

Now obviously this is transferable to older people in general because some people have shitty fathers and often absent fathers in these days. But the concept is the same.
I'm simply fucking tired of wasting breath explaining why chorales and perchlorate should NEVER be exposed to copper or brass or that few things are truly "unstable"; they are simply sensitive; thus stimuli must be kept in check to even begin to handle energetic materials safely......I just get so fucking sick of all the accidents......that aren't "accidents" at all but negligence!

However I have developed a keen respect for people who really put out there that they know bat-shit and want to learn --- AND THEN ACTUALLY GO AND READ*! Those guys will most likely keep all their fingers, eyes, and genitalia (yes; it often detonates in one's lap!). I have met some young people who really impressed the Hell out of me; not with their "knowledge" but with the intelligence to know what they didn't know and follow a path of learning. But I found many are simple "know it alls" until they get hurt. It happens in the work world, the military, and it happens in love....

So sail on kids: here a brew you you! I drink to your keen knowledge and indestructible youth (until you get to 40, that is....)


*THAT is the fucking key! Anyone can say "I am ignorant" but the people who know that and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT (not spoon fed bullshit - but READ DAVIS cover to cover and then again until it sinks in....) those people have intellects! Because everyone has an area of interest that they do not have full mastery of.

[Edited on 28-11-2010 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 28-11-2010 at 10:01


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
I found Myfanwy . . .
He was here for only a few months.
And just 16 years old . . .

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/member.php?action=viewpro...


AFAIK, he died of pulmonary oedema, and IIRC he was working with phosgene (he mentioned he wanted to use a method using phosgene, before he died).

In my opinion, all threads on AP or other well known explosives wich are just meant for making the stuff and blowing it up should be deleted and not be tolerated. There is so much science to discover and this does not include making more than a few grams of highly unstable explosives. There are also very interesting topics in the Energetics section, like the properties of ethyleendiamine perchlorate, and other exotic stuff.
Also in my opinion topics about drugs or immediate precursors, such as phenylacetone should not be tolerated. If you really into the chemistry of aromatic ketones, make acetophenone instead?

This way this forum is in no way related to illegal activities, wich is a good thing.
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dawson01912
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[*] posted on 28-11-2010 at 10:46


@ Jor

You know, I enjoy watching the AP/ APAN/ HMTD videos. It gives me a thrill of danger from a safety of my screen................kinda like watching Faces of Death. However, for people who are getting into explosives I discourage them from ever touching it.

But yeah, we don't need any more peroxide threads here. Keep the archives as caveman trivia.
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[*] posted on 28-11-2010 at 14:32


Fatal accidents are very sad, yes. Unfortunately I'm afraid that this thread is fostering the wrong sort of safety attitudes: by highlighting positively suicidal risks, it may give the impression by contrast that merely stupid risk taking is no big deal. For example, dawson01912, you recently posted in another thread about a preventable and potentially serious accident that you had while preparing ETN. You may think that the risks you take are only moderate because there are fiends out there who make acetone peroxide by the pound. But idiots with a death wish should not be your standard of comparison; modern trained professionals should be your standard.



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