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Author: Subject: Make Potassium (from versuchschemie.de)
ScienceHideout
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[*] posted on 24-8-2011 at 09:15


Sorry: too lazy to read all of the posts over again- but did we try this with toluene? It could work- toluene is very versatile. :)



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[*] posted on 24-8-2011 at 09:16


Toluene as a solvent? It boils a 110 or so. That is much too low a temperature for this reaction.

[Edited on 24-8-2011 by redox]




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[*] posted on 24-8-2011 at 09:22


What's the opposite of boiling point depression? I can't think of the word... we could mix the toluene with other stuff and make it boil at a higher temp.



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[*] posted on 24-8-2011 at 09:50


Quote: Originally posted by ScienceHideout  
What's the opposite of boiling point depression? I can't think of the word... we could mix the toluene with other stuff and make it boil at a higher temp.


The only way you could make toluene boil at a higher temperature is to increase the pressure...

Aryl compounds aren't a good idea though due to the reactivity towards K
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[*] posted on 24-8-2011 at 12:04


Toluene isn't a good idea full stop. Ordinary kerosene does just fine, as do several other high boiling, inert, aprotic solvents.



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[*] posted on 22-9-2011 at 21:02
Ordering D70


There are 35 pages to go through to see if this has been said already, but I found the site they bought the D70 at and it's only 7EU for a liter, which is like 10 or 12 bucks US I think. I don't know what the shipping is yet but they ship worldwide and to individuals if I read it right. I'm not sure on the hazard charges if there are any. I looks like though that getting D70 is totally doable.

Link Here
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[*] posted on 23-9-2011 at 04:28


Quote: Originally posted by Takron  
There are 35 pages to go through to see if this has been said already, but I found the site they bought the D70 at and it's only 7EU for a liter, which is like 10 or 12 bucks US I think. I don't know what the shipping is yet but they ship worldwide and to individuals if I read it right. I'm not sure on the hazard charges if there are any. I looks like though that getting D70 is totally doable.

Link Here


Still, why invest so much money in a 'fancy' solvent when a good quality lamp oil (kerosene) or high paraffin will do?

Kremer has a US shop advertised, so you may get the Shellsol from there, if you insist on having it...

[Edited on 23-9-2011 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 23-9-2011 at 09:23


D70 petroleum solvent has longer molecular chains, which means it can be heated to a higher temperature with less danger of catching fire. The hydrocarbon chains in keresene are typically typically 6-14 carbon atoms long. Those lighter chainer are going to vaporize out if it is strongly heated, which is generally a very bad thing.

Shellsol D70 boils at around 200degC, if I remember correctly. It contains about 60% hydrocarbons and 40% cycloalkanes (saturated hydrocarbons in a ring). It often also contains traces of benzene (only around 1-2%).
The molecular chains in D70 typically contain baround 14 to 15 carbon atoms.



[Edited on 23-9-2011 by AndersHoveland]
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[*] posted on 23-9-2011 at 11:56


Not really, Anders. My lamp oil (deodorised kerosene) boils also at around 200 C and makes perfect potassium. Read the thread and you'll see there's really nothing much special about Sh. D70. I have it and used it at first, now I just don't spend my money on it anymore. Others have used candle wax (high paraffin) and other hydrocarbon based solvents. As long as it's inert and has a sufficiently high boiling point it works. That's what this thread clearly shows, among other things...

Remember, this needs to be done under complete reflux, so some volatility of the solvent is simply not an issue.




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[*] posted on 26-10-2011 at 11:15


"A method of preparing magnesium alcoholates Mg(OR)2 (where R=alkyl residue having 2 to 10 carbon atoms) is described. Addition products of 1,3-dienes to magnesium metal in a polar, aprotic solvent are reached with an alcohol R—OH. "


Looked relevant.

Attachment: Magnesium alcholates.pdf (50kB)
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[*] posted on 26-10-2011 at 11:48


Definitely. Thanks.



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[*] posted on 26-10-2011 at 12:27


It strikes me that no one mentions using petroleum jelly (Vaseline)

http://www.bmed.mcgill.ca/REKLAB/manual/MSDS/Materials%20Lis...

The above MSDS gives a boiling point of 343oC

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[*] posted on 26-10-2011 at 12:31


Actually, it has been mentioned by Nurdrage and me. The problem is that it resolidifies to a waxy solid, making it difficult to recover the metal, in particular the fines, which get stuck in there.

Why is everybody always pickin' on my kerosene, that's what I want to know! ;)




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[*] posted on 31-10-2011 at 16:18


Go Kero go, no hate here. There was a lot of not being able to get a suitable solvent in the thread, Vaseline is about as OTC as you can get.


Preparation and thermal decomposition of Magnesium Alcoholates.

Attachment: magnesium alcholates decomp points.htm (81kB)
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let me know if it does not open, I ripped it from a host site.
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[*] posted on 31-10-2011 at 16:54


Has anyone made cesium with this method yet? Do you guys think paraffin oil/mineral oil would work ok?

[Edited on 11-1-2011 by MyNameIsUnnecessarilyLong]
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[*] posted on 31-10-2011 at 16:59


Kerosene is just the trade mark name for paraffin oil.
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[*] posted on 1-11-2011 at 14:20


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
The problem is that [the petroleum jelly] resolidifies to a waxy solid, making it difficult to recover the metal, in particular the fines, which get stuck in there.


Could not the petroleum jelly ("Vasoline") be dissolved away with kerosene (or even more volatile petrol) after the reaction?

Petroleum jelly would seem advantageous over directly using kerosene because there would not be danger that it would catch fire when being heated.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2011 at 07:27


Probably. What's to be gained by this complication though?



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[*] posted on 3-11-2011 at 08:06


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
The problem is that [the petroleum jelly] resolidifies to a waxy solid, making it difficult to recover the metal, in particular the fines, which get stuck in there.


Could not the petroleum jelly ("Vasoline") be dissolved away with kerosene (or even more volatile petrol) after the reaction?

Petroleum jelly would seem advantageous over directly using kerosene because there would not be danger that it would catch fire when being heated.



Why wouldn't there be? Its still an oil albeit a very viscous one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwW1VG3w3yc





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[*] posted on 3-11-2011 at 08:09


Using a reaction flask run the reaction with Vaseline thinned with a little kero, let cool and gel.

Scrap the gel out into a strainer and proceed with M1tankers method in the K/Na refining thread?

Seems like it could simplify things, from my peanut gallery seat.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2011 at 08:19


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
The problem is that [the petroleum jelly] resolidifies to a waxy solid, making it difficult to recover the metal, in particular the fines, which get stuck in there.


Could not the petroleum jelly ("Vasoline") be dissolved away with kerosene (or even more volatile petrol) after the reaction?

Petroleum jelly would seem advantageous over directly using kerosene because there would not be danger that it would catch fire when being heated.



Why wouldn't there be? Its still an oil albeit a very viscous one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwW1VG3w3yc


It burns well once you get it going, I've used it cut with kerosene to make fuels with great success.

Getting it to burn is just more difficult, it needs to really boil to burn or have a wick, when it does go it burns like boiling paraffin wax. Like paraffin it is just harder to get it to burn alone then it is with kerosene.


petroleum jelly may be more dangerous then kerosene for no other reason then if it does ignites it will react much more violently with water as it will be much hotter then liquid kerosene can get.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2011 at 16:13


Lamp oil which is commonly available for outside torches could also be used. It can be purchased at a camping store.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2011 at 16:28


Lamp oil = Kerosene...
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[*] posted on 4-11-2011 at 06:56


Ergo: Kerosene = Lamp oli...

Can we move on now? ;)




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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 18:40


This thread has kept me from sleeping early the last 3 nights, it was some of the most fascinating reading I found for a long time - both because of the subject, but even more so seeing knowledge evolve, people contributing, errors made and discovered. Thanks to everyone.

A small contribution concerning the solvents:

This Shell site shows the available grades of Shell's saturated, low aromatic solvents, and the geographic regions in which they are sold. The D70 is only available in Europe and Africa. Most likely, it is produced in a European refinery. There is a D80 grade, with a slightly higher boiling range, that might be a replacement and is available in America.

A little googleing revealed that other oil companies offer very similar products.

Knowing that oil companies are not only competitors, but actually cooperate in a lot of fields, I would not be surpised if Shell's and Exxon's D80 run out of exactly the same pipe in a refinery in the U.S., and that one could find identical products also from other suppliers. It might be worth the effort having a talk with the local sales office or distributor of one of the oil co's. One might end up buying a 5 gal can - at the same price as 1/2 l of a reagent grade hydrocarbon. But at least you buy something that according to it's spec sheet should work.

Lamp oils etc. are certainly the same stuff - one just does not know which stuff exactly. And the "official" solvent is definitely free of citronella.
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