DavidJR
National Hazard
Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tired
|
|
Why can't thionyl chloride be used to chlorinate oxalic acid to oxalyl chloride?
I've seen several mentions of the fact that SOCl2 cannot be used to chlorinate oxalic acid, including in papers, but I haven't been able to
find a satisfactory explanation as to why it does not work at all when other chlorinating agents (like PCl5) do work.
I can confirm that it does, indeed, not work, because I tried it. I also tried addition of pyridine (as a base to mop up HCl), catalytic amount of
DMF, or both, without success.
There have been some suggestions that the decomposition results from the instability of either the mono-chlorinated product, or of a cyclic anhydride.
However, thinking that these unstable products might still be able to react with alcohols etc, I tried the above mentioned prep (all four variants,
with/without each of DMF/pyridine) in the presence of phenol, hoping to get at least a small amount of diphenyl oxalate. I got none.
Any ideas?
|
|
|
Keras
National Hazard
Posts: 768
Registered: 20-8-2018
Location: (48, 2)
Member Is Offline
|
|
What do you get instead? Other products, or does nothing happen?
Did you have a look on this thread?
I wonder if the end result of oxalic acid + thionyl chloride is not phosgene. Did you test for this?
[Edited on 17-5-2019 by Keras]
|
|
|
Pumukli
National Hazard
Posts: 686
Registered: 2-3-2014
Location: EU
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
First of all I don't know the answer to your question either.
Your negative results are still informative though, they may save someone to waste precious thionyl chloride to repeat them! No kidding.
On the other hand, if you don't mind wasting a few more milliliters I'd suggest something.
What if you tried the reaction with say anhydrous sodium-oxalate instead of the free acid? I remember (foggy) that S2Cl2 (or SCl2?) and a salt can be
used to make acid-chlorides. Also, there is an article in JACS somewhere where they use benzoyl-chloride and a salt of a different acid to make the
acid-chloride of that other acid.
What do you think?
|
|
|
DavidJR
National Hazard
Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tired
|
|
Seemed to decompose to gaseous products, probably including CO and CO2.
Quote: Originally posted by Keras  |
I wonder if the end result of oxalic acid + thionyl chloride is not phosgene. Did you test for this?
|
I hope not.... How would I test for phosgene?
| Quote: Originally posted by Pumukli |
On the other hand, if you don't mind wasting a few more milliliters I'd suggest something.
What if you tried the reaction with say anhydrous sodium-oxalate instead of the free acid? I remember (foggy) that S2Cl2 (or SCl2?) and a salt can be
used to make acid-chlorides. Also, there is an article in JACS somewhere where they use benzoyl-chloride and a salt of a different acid to make the
acid-chloride of that other acid.
|
Hmm that might be worth trying actually. I'm not worried about wasting SOCl2 because I have a 1 litre bottle (only ordered 500ml but they sent me 1l).
[Edited on 17-5-2019 by DavidJR]
|
|
|
Keras
National Hazard
Posts: 768
Registered: 20-8-2018
Location: (48, 2)
Member Is Offline
|
|
Seems standard for oxalic acid which is easily oxidised into CO and CO2
Have some old articles about that.
Attachment: ac50074a031.pdf (922kB)
This file has been downloaded 388 times
Attachment: ac50092a032.pdf (741kB)
This file has been downloaded 465 times
[Edited on 17-5-2019 by Keras]
|
|
|
CuReUS
National Hazard
Posts: 928
Registered: 9-9-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I second this
idea.According to wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalyl_chloride#Reactions
| Quote: | | Oxalyl chloride reacts with water giving off gaseous products only: hydrogen chloride (HCl), carbon dioxide (CO2),
and carbon monoxide (CO) |
Maybe your oxalyl chloride is decomposing as soon as it is formed.Did you use
anhydrous oxalic acid or the dihydrate ?
Or maybe since oxalic acid is a reducing agent,its reducing SOCl2(and some of the formed oxalyl chloride) faster than the latter can
chlorinate it.This problem can be solved by using oxalic ester.
| Quote: | | I tried the above mentioned prep (all four variants, with/without each of DMF/pyridine) in the presence of phenol, hoping to get at least a small
amount of diphenyl oxalate. I got none. |
Smart way to confirm a reaction mechanism.Try this again using
aliphatic alcohol,since pheonls are less reactive-https://www.researchgate.net/post/why_phenol_is_less_reactiv...
[Edited on 17-5-2019 by CuReUS]
|
|
|
DavidJR
National Hazard
Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tired
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS |
Maybe your oxalyl chloride is decomposing as soon as it is formed.Did you use anhydrous oxalic acid or the dihydrate ?
|
At first I tried using the dihydrate, with the expectation that the SOCl2 would mop up the water. When that didn't work I moved to using (what I
believe is) anhydrous oxalic acid (dried by dean stark trap w/ toluene - but I haven't done a water determination on it).
| Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS |
Or maybe since oxalic acid is a reducing agent,its reducing SOCl2(and some of the formed oxalyl chloride) faster than the latter can
chlorinate it.This problem can be solved by using oxalic ester.
|
Maybe, but then I would have to prepare an oxalate ester first, which would be a pain in the ass. I'd certainly rather try using an oxalate salt
first. I have calcium oxalate on hand, maybe that's worth trying. If not I'll prepare some sodium oxalate.
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2691
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
I would guess that SOCl2 reacts with phenol faster than it reacts with oxalate. Phenol is a much stronger nucleophile. I had personally been in the
"cyclic anhydride" (2,1,3-thiadioxole-2,4,5-trione) camp.
It may however be possible to make oxalic ditosylate from oxalates and tosyl chloride, but mixed carboxylic-sulfonic anhydrides tend to
disproportionate into the symmetric anhydrides, which in this case would lead to decomposition.
A more fanciful possibility would be to use N,N-diphenylcarbamoyl chloride or other similar N,N-dialkylcarbamoyl chloride to form mixed anhydrides
with an oxalate salt. "DPCC" forms exceptionally stable mixed anhydrides with carboxylic acids that act as good acyl transfer reagents, cf Shepard et
al (attached). Somewhat conveniently, diphenylcarbamoyl chloride is commercially available.
The at-home synthesis of DPCC however leaves a bit to be desired -- the only thing I can think of is the double Goldberg reaction of formamide with
iodobenzene, followed by radical chlorination of the formamide. The literature route uses phosgene and diphenylamine, which I consider unreasonably
dangerous.
Attachment: shepard1979.pdf (1.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 342 times
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
|
|
|
CharlieA
National Hazard
Posts: 645
Registered: 11-8-2015
Location: Missouri, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Test for phosgene from my prior laboratory experience: it smells like new-mown hay. THIS IS NOT A RECOMMENDED ANALYTICAL METHOD!!!
|
|
|
chemplayer...
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 25-4-2016
Location: Away from the secret island
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Oxalic acid is a difficult one to chlorinate. We tried with PCl3 (apart from PCl5 it don't come much stronger) and the result was negative.
Unfortunately if you want to go the route of using traditional chlorinating agents to prepare it, only PCl5 seems to work.
There was a SM contest / challenge a while back as to whether anyone could come up with an OTC way to prepare oxalyl chloride, and there were some
good ideas floated around, but no final outcome or positive result as far as I am aware. Our suggestion would be bubbling anhydrous HCl gas through a
mixture of acetonitrile with anhydrous oxalic acid dissolved in it (probably low yielding though if indeed it works at all).
|
|
|
CuReUS
National Hazard
Posts: 928
Registered: 9-9-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You could try it ,but if the reduction theory is
correct,oxalate salts won't work because for oxalic acid to act as a reducing agent,it must get oxidised to CO2,which oxalate salts can do
as well,but esters can't. I think by "cyclic
anhydride" he meant the reaction between oxalic acid and SOCl2,not phenol and SOCl2
| Quote: | | The at-home synthesis of DPCC however leaves a bit to be desired |
You could make it by reacting
triphosgene(safer than phosgene  ) with diphenylamine - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S100184171...
triphosgene can be made from dimethyl carbonate - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0039791930801260...
maybe it could be done in 1 pot to reduce the risk http://sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_war_gases.pdf ( read pg 65,pg 72 in pdf) http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8742#p...
[Edited on 18-5-2019 by CuReUS]
|
|
|
DavidJR
National Hazard
Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tired
|
|
I've recently acquired some PCl5 and I'm using it right now to prepare some oxalyl chloride. So I'm not really looking for other practical
ways to make oxalyl chloride, I'm really just interested in finding out why thionyl chloride doesn't work.
|
|
|
DavidJR
National Hazard
Posts: 908
Registered: 1-1-2018
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Tired
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR | | I've recently acquired some PCl5 and I'm using it right now to prepare some oxalyl chloride. So I'm not really looking for other practical
ways to make oxalyl chloride, I'm really just interested in finding out why thionyl chloride doesn't work. |
Wanting to test my newly-prepared oxalyl chloride (made w/ PCl5) I tried diluting 100ul of product with about 2ml DCM, added a tiny bit of
rhodamine B, then added about 2ml of 12% H2O2. Got a wonderful (but short lived) glow.
Later, it occurred to me that if this works for oxalyl chloride, then perhaps any kind of cyclic anhydride of oxalic acid (produced by reaction with
thionyl chloride) could also do it in the same situation. So in a vial, I put a spatula of anhydrous oxalic acid, covered with about 2ml of DCM
(doesn't dissolve), added a tiny bit of rhodamine B, and 200ul of thionyl chloride. Swirled it around for a few seconds, then added 2ml of 12% H2O2 on
top. No glow, even with stirring (vigorous reaction between the water and thionyl chloride though).
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
