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Author: Subject: ANNM/ detonation
prometheus1970
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Thanks, that clears thing up a bit

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SB15
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 Quote: Originally posted by franklyn The formula as presented does not indicate an answer consistent with what is implied... ρ = density of explosive (m/V) . . .1.6

Hey, I didn't know there was any solid explosive in existence with similar density to air at STP.

You messed up the unit conversion. The formula Holmes posted clearly lists the density in kilograms per cubic meter, not grams per cubic centimeter. Taking your figures and properly converting them, this gives:

P<sub>d</sub> = p*D<sup>2</sup>/4
P<sub>d</sub> = (1600kg/m<sup>3</sup>*(6.0km/s)<sup>2</sup>/4
P<sub>d</sub> = 14 400MPa

Or about 142 000ATM (2.1MPSI). Very reasonable.
holmes1880
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SB15,

Thanks for explaining it to franklyn. I didn't bother cause that's missing the point, which is that density is very critical. In practical terms, pressing blasting caps is necessary.
prometheus1970
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Good point. Pressing is necessary, pressing tatp is friggi'n retarded if it can be avoided, therefore using tatp when it can be avoided is friggin retarded...

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franklyn
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@ holmes1880

@ SB15

yes I see now - query withdrawn

S.I. unit for mass/density kg /m ³ explains the 1000 times greater magnitude
which only if figured in this way the given formula correctly implies a realistic value.

Standard explosives data is given as an decimal factor times 1 , the value for
the density of water. Densities as this are expressed in gm / cm ³
"explosive density " to me does not imply anything else.

It seems out of category to utilize a calculation appropriate for determining
explosive charges for boreholes at an open pit mine in the context of
applications of gram amounts. But oh we'll that's just me , you go ahead
and speak of energetic material densities in tons per cubic meter if that suits you.

.

[Edited on 24-12-2010 by franklyn]
SB15
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I'm not in any way implying that kg/m<sup>3</sup> is a more suitable unit for explosive density, I was merely indicating that the formula is correct when used with the given parameters.

That said, it makes little sense to me to use an inconsistent unit system tailored only towards convenience in a specific application. Having studied physics and chem at University, I find that it's beneficial to simply use SI base units in all calculations. It helps to eliminate the exact type of confusion that occurred here.

Just my opinion though.
prometheus1970
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I want to thank evrybody for their help with my various questions. I'd also like to wish everybody a MERRY CHRISMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!

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Jimbo Jones
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 Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/acetylide.htm Silver acetylide synthesis, as plain as it gets. All ingredients I can purchase right now over the internet, not a problem. Silver nitrate is rather pricy, but you're not making any big amounts with it. Lead azide is also rather simple synthesis, but I didn't look too much into. Try Ag2C2, since there's more info on it. [Edited on 21-12-2010 by holmes1880]

Even Ag2C2. AgNO3 is weak initiator. Well it’s useful to some degrees, but if I had silver nitrate around, I will definitely try this silver azide route.

hiperion42
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 Quote: Originally posted by Jimbo Jones Even Ag2C2. AgNO3 is weak initiator. Well it’s useful to some degrees, but if I had silver nitrate around, I will definitely try this silver azide route.

For most the latter will be substantially more difficult to synthesize.
Ag2C2. AgNO3 in conjunction with a nitrated sensitive sugar alcohol
works.

[Edited on 28-12-2010 by hiperion42]

.....ejuu....................................................................Ffg..............................g.............
Jimbo Jones
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Quote: Originally posted by hiperion42
 Quote: Originally posted by Jimbo Jones Even Ag2C2. AgNO3 is weak initiator. Well it’s useful to some degrees, but if I had silver nitrate around, I will definitely try this silver azide route.

For most the latter will be substantially more difficult to synthesize.
Ag2C2. AgNO3 in conjunction with a sensitive sugar alcohol
works.

Not so good in small diameters…
Rain
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 Quote: Originally posted by prometheus1970 I read that the following mixture produces one helluva powerful charge: 1000 grams nh4no3 Nitromethane 185 grams Methanol 84 grams Can anyone tell me if this is a valid composition? Would 2 grams tatp with 3-4 grams nitrocelluose booster be sufficient to initiate said composition?

-->It might be the Methanols reduction properties.
Try adding in some Al powder, as methanol removes the oxide layer, thus providing another reducing compound in contact with the AN.

Be careful though - this mixture might be extremely sensitive.

[Edited on 9-1-2011 by Rain]

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holmes1880
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@Rain

Adding Al to ANNM does not make it potentially "extremely sensitive". It makes it sensitive to #4 blasting cap.
The 1000/185/84 ratio using Methanol is just horrible. Methanol is a desensitizer and this is so far from OB that it's not even funny.
prometheus1970
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How about these ratios? (for annm/al):
AN-43%
NM-22%
Al-35%

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Rain
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The Methanol is key, as it removes the Al oxide layer from the Al particles.This gives the Al a lower barrier to overcome to act as a reducer towards the oxide -AN in this case-.The reason I say that it might become very sensitive is because of the above mentioned fact.Take for example Zinc powder.When mixed with AN, it becomes extremely sensitive, so that it will ignite when in contact with moisture which acts as an electrolyte.This is because of Zn natural elecronegativity -1.1Volt in water, and thus its properties as a reductant.The same laws for Al, it only has a lower reduction potential than Zn.

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White Yeti
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I don't think 3-4 grams of nitrocellulose is enough to ignite such a mixture. I'm intrigued by your use of methanol, why would you use a fuel that has a relatively low energy content by mass? In this case, I would have used diesel fuel. It's a lil more expensive, but you should be able to use less of it per Kg of AN.

As for the boost, I would use much more than 3-4g. In my oppinion, using too little boost is really dangerous. Imagine you use too little and the ANFO doesn't ignite, you have the most dangerous kind of charge, one that hasn't detonated, but that can detonate at any time without warning, whether you're close to it or not.
Rosco Bodine
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IIRC there was an inconvenient storage problem for the aluminized NH4NO3 composition which was used some as a filler for the parachute deployed "daisy cutter" munition MOAB device ......which resulted in storage depots going up predictably without any provocation whatsoever, other than passing time.
Tick, tick, tick .....the clock is surely running sometimes even when there is no
ticking to be heard.
holmes1880
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^^^
You are talking of BLU-82B 12,600lb bombs with DBA-22M slurry was what detonated. AN/Al 50/34, water, guar gum, boric acid, ethylene glycol.

They were stored for years in ton quantities inside a metal casing. After that, these BLU-82Bthey were further used, but could not be stored for more than 6 months.

NH4NO3 and NM all detonated spontaneously in metal containers in HUGE amounts. Are you trying to scare me with that Rosco? Nice...

The time is not enough.
pjig
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Are you suggesting that the aluminized the AN has a limited storage life? If it is under vacuum, will it delay the nitrogen formation ? What if a nitrogen robbing urea or other stabilizer is added? Is there still a danger of the stuff becoming unstable ?
holmes1880
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@pjig

What is this noobery, did you not read any of the links and just started asking questions? When you have a 6 ton AN/AL/Water mixtures sitting in a metal casing for 6 years outside in hot weather, it will decompose. The bomb incident happened after 4 days of 40C heat on day 5. That thing must have been heated up to several hundred degrees celsius. Any explosive subjected to high temperatures in large amounts will decompose. Take C4 shelf life-- it is 10 years under *normal* storage conditions. These MOABs could be safely stored for 180 days without any decomposition.

That being said, a binary explosive shouldn't be stored for prolonged amounts of time, nor does it need to be. You mix the ingredients before the detonation or an hour before you go to detonate.

Rosco was just trying to mess with me. I have been deflating his argument that primaries are safe, particularly SA, so he tried to prank me with this:

 Quote: Tick, tick, tick .....the clock is surely running sometimes even when there is no ticking to be heard.
.

The time is not enough.
KemiRockarFett
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 Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 ^^^ You are talking of BLU-82B 12,600lb bombs with DBA-22M slurry was what detonated. AN/Al 50/34, water, guar gum, boric acid, ethylene glycol. http://books.google.com/books?id=15KyF-iOdmYC&pg=PA274&a... They were stored for years in ton quantities inside a metal casing. After that, these BLU-82Bthey were further used, but could not be stored for more than 6 months. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yEdhcxG... NH4NO3 and NM all detonated spontaneously in metal containers in HUGE amounts. Are you trying to scare me with that Rosco? Nice...

Dont beleave everything you read on the internet.
A 6 ton bomb with mainly Al, water and AN that detonates by it self after 40 degrees in the sun. Sure baby yes.
KemiRockarFett
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 Quote: Originally posted by Rain The Methanol is key, as it removes the Al oxide layer from the Al particles.This gives the Al a lower barrier to overcome to act as a reducer towards the oxide -AN in this case-.The reason I say that it might become very sensitive is because of the above mentioned fact.Take for example Zinc powder.When mixed with AN, it becomes extremely sensitive, so that it will ignite when in contact with moisture which acts as an electrolyte.This is because of Zn natural elecronegativity -1.1Volt in water, and thus its properties as a reductant.The same laws for Al, it only has a lower reduction potential than Zn.

No, the methanol will not effect the Al2O3 at al.
Methanol will act as a fuel, why use that toxic garbage ?
holmes1880
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@KemiRockeFett

Yeah, it looked like Gerald L. Hurst was willing to throw nuclear waste in those kinepak compositions for the economy's sake. Methanol and xylene....you can't even work with xylene without a respirator. Ugghh. But I think the commercial product only has colored NM.

Are you saying the military reports are misleading about BLU-82B's detonating on their own. They investigated that pretty thoroughly and found traces of decompositions in other bombs and so decided to limit their safe shelf life to 6 months. If NM can detonate inside a truck drum, so can a binary composition with similar critical diameter, while being on a hot sun for years.

The time is not enough.
KemiRockarFett
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 Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 @KemiRockeFett Yeah, it looked like Gerald L. Hurst was willing to throw nuclear waste in those kinepak compositions for the economy's sake. Methanol and xylene....you can't even work with xylene without a respirator. Ugghh. But I think the commercial product only has colored NM. Are you saying the military reports are misleading about BLU-82B's detonating on their own. They investigated that pretty thoroughly and found traces of decompositions in other bombs and so decided to limit their safe shelf life to 6 months. If NM can detonate inside a truck drum, so can a binary composition with similar critical diameter, while being on a hot sun for years.

The so called military report claiming the mix of mainly aluminium and ammonium nitrate in a water gelly is detonating by sun storage, forget it. Otherwise we need to find a lot of more references on that. Materials for bombs cant just have a shelf live of 6 years, it must be much longer. What will happend if the bombs start to detonate by them self around 6 years storage, how big is the risk then after 3 years? So this so called reference to military report have some serios errors for sure.

Kinepake is NM/AN in perfect mix , everything else is garbage. Put an volotaile compound as CH3OH to the bulk is not to recommend as its toxic and also reduces the power.
holmes1880
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I don't know, but I don't see any need for cover-up. These were one of the most massive, non-nuclear bombs ever made, so storing them in confined metal shell, subjected to wide range of temperatures has potential to decompose ANY explosive, not just binary, but even the most stable secondary explosives like TNT. As far as shelf life, they have limited operation as FAEs, so maybe they use just-in-time inventory method. That woudl make the current U.S. debt much smaller if gov-nt cronies weren't stockpiling bombs and then send them to be controllably detonated because they expired.

AN/NM, with powdered, high density FGAN, is one of the most powerful compositions I've ever tested. Although, adding metal helps to add some significant brisance in this composition.

The time is not enough.
KemiRockarFett
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 Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 I don't know, but I don't see any need for cover-up. These were one of the most massive, non-nuclear bombs ever made, so storing them in confined metal shell, subjected to wide range of temperatures has potential to decompose ANY explosive, not just binary, but even the most stable secondary explosives like TNT. As far as shelf life, they have limited operation as FAEs, so maybe they use just-in-time inventory method. That woudl make the current U.S. debt much smaller if gov-nt cronies weren't stockpiling bombs and then send them to be controllably detonated because they expired. AN/NM, with powdered, high density FGAN, is one of the most powerful compositions I've ever tested. Although, adding metal helps to add some significant brisance in this composition.

1) The bomb subject. TNT could be stored 10 000 years at normal conditions without decomposing. The same is true for very many military explosives. I think that you have NC propellants on your mind that will start to accelerate their break down as fast as their stabilizers are consumed. Therefore the ammo storages are checked for NOx/HNO3 at regulary time intervalls.

2) FAE, not this bomb, its a high metal content so some thermobaric effect may be ecpected. FAE is fuel air explosives.

3) Adding Al or Mg fuel to kinepake increases its energy content but decreases it VoD therefore probably NOT increase its brisance at al, if you did not added some nano-tech super fine al powder.

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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » ANNM/ detonation Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues