| Pages:
1
2 |
DNA
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: @moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Experimenting
|
|
sheet explosive
Dear all,
I am planning on doing some research on sheet explosives.
Mainly with PETN as high explosive, but the point is I have found the formulation for primasheet which uses nitrocellulose and a plasticizer which is
acetyl tributyl citrate.
They don't sell this at the regular chemical supply company so I was thinking about synthesizing it myself.
Unfortunately I don't have acces to beilstein or scifinder so could anyone tell me a synthesis for acetyl tributyl citrate?
I was planning on using NG and NC and PETN.
Or better, do you have experience or documentation on this subject.
I do have a patent using nitrostarch and TEGDN but apparently nitrostarch isn't really the nicest compound to nitrate, especially when filtering the
product (honey like substance) etc.
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
Perform independent search for : DuPont DetaSheet patent. Standard of industry. Used in separation of concrete via cracks in demo of large scale
concrete slabs. Extremely common.
|
|
|
Maniak
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 26-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You definitely don't need acetyl tributyl citrate for sheet explosive. It serves just as an inert plasticizer for nitrocellulose and although it is
probably little better than others in view of migration and handling, you can use diethyl, dibutyl or dioctyl phthalate as well as TEGDN or TMETN with
nearly the same results.
The problem is elsewhere - you probably don't have right kind of nitrocellulose, i.e. so called "dynamite" or "high viscosity" nitrocellulose. Using
common 12,4%N low viscosity (lacquer grade) nitrocellulose you can try any ratio, but in all cases you'll obtain just some kind of more or less
plastic explosive. You can roll it into sheets, but you absolutely won't get real DuPont-like sheet explosive.
Anyway, don't forget that you'll need fine (precipitated or underwater milled) PETN.
|
|
|
DNA
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: @moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Experimenting
|
|
Thanks a lot for the info maniak! I also looked into how to produce 13% nitrogen containing NC with certain ratio's of hno3 and sulphuric acid and
water.
I'll use nitroglycerin then as plasticizer.
[Edited on 18-1-2011 by DNA]
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
How will you go about extruding the gelatine?
|
|
|
Jimbo Jones
Hazard to Others
Posts: 102
Registered: 15-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What about silicone, or Styrofoam & acetone as binder. I have tried the Styrofoam / Acetone combo, but without some type of plasticizer the whole
mass is very crumble and hard to press. Maybe a few % of dibutyl phthalate will do the trick.
|
|
|
Maniak
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 26-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
DNA: this is not about nitrogen percentage. Nitrocellulose with 13%N is used for single base smokeless propellants and it is of low viscosity as well
as lacquer grade. High viscosity nitrocellulose is a special type which is only prepared for munitions and explosives and can not be easily obtained.
It has got some 12-12,5%N. Its preparation is described in Urbanski II - it needs special source of cotton, low esterification temperatures and
stabilizing without strong bases.
Nitroglycerine is not a good choice for playing with sheets - mixtures are extremely viscous even beeing diluted with volatile solvents and processing
(rolling) has to be done at high temperatures and using all power of your hands... Under these conditions, NG will be dangerously sensitive and in
addition, you'll get a headache quickly.
Jimbo hit the nail on the head. Styrofoam combined with dibutyl phthalate can be used for quite useful sheets. Of course, they are not as good as
DuPont products in view of mechanical properties, especially at elevated temperatures, but for an amateur they are good alternative for some
experiments with LSC or explosive engraving.
[Edited on 18-1-2011 by Maniak]
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Maniak  |
Jimbo hit the nail on the head. Styrofoam combined with dibutyl phthalate can be used for quite useful sheets. Of course, they are not as good as
DuPont products in view of mechanical properties, especially at elevated temperatures, but for an amateur they are good alternative for some
experiments with LSC or explosive engraving. |
Hummm — the great advantage of sheet explosives e.g., Bickford
Primasheet 2000, Dyno HLX, Royal Ordnance Demex 200, &c,
is that they are flexible.
djh
----
From the Outer Limits of Experimentalism...
The car was 3.15 meters long, 1.15 meters tall
and weighed 308kgs... Constructed out of motorcycle
parts and with a body made of pig's blood,
chicken feathers and shellac, the Feszival
was smelly, but it worked.
The Marvellous Magyar Micocars
How Hungry circumvented Stalin and had a bit of fun
The Economist 18xii10
|
|
|
Maniak
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 26-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It is quite easy to find proper ratio of PETN/polystyrene/dibutyl phthalate at which sheets are flexible at room temperature. Sheets keep their
dimensions when bent, are little elastic and sticks to a flat surfaces. The problem is just keeping this flexibility at various temperatures. This can
be solved for example using above stated high viscosity NC/plasticizer or more recently using mixtures based on thermoplastic elastomeric polymers.
In contrary, PETN/low viscosity NC/dibutyl phthalate can at best be dough like plastic which is not flexible and can be shaped by hands. It is useful,
but not for sheet explosives.
|
|
|
DNA
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: @moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Experimenting
|
|
Okay, thanks a lot for all the input!
So high viscosity NC preparation is like almost out of the question as I understand. I'll try the styrofoam and a plasticizer with acetone and some
inert fine powder (i.e baking flour) to test with.
Jimbo Jones, do you still have some data from your experiments, that way I have some guidelines where I can start with.
[Edited on 18-1-2011 by DNA]
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A suggestion ...
Run DuPont Flexible explosive through —
Google.com/patents
Or leave la DuPont out.
|
|
|
Microtek
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 23-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I remember reading a patent about using liquid latex (or alternatively silicone) as binder in flexible explosive compositions. Liquid latex is an
ammonia stabilized emulsion of latex in water that can be found in some hobby shops (it's used for making things for live role playing as well as
other arts and crafts things).
IIRC, the VOD of the latex based composition was much better than the silicone based one, however since liquid latex needs to dry while silicone
cures, there is a limit to how thick sheets you can make with it.
[Edited on 19-1-2011 by Microtek]
|
|
|
DNA
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: @moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Experimenting
|
|
I do have acces to dibutyl phtalate/styrofoam and also to liquid latex.
So I'll experiment with both of those and see what results I'll get.
The other thing I'm a bit concerned about is that if the concentration of PETN becomes too low that it will be very hard to detonate it.
Like with PBX they contain 90% HE, if you go too low then they become very hard to detonate.
@ quicksilver: I'll also try your "shaving" method to make very fine PETN crystals as I read in another topic.
[Edited on 19-1-2011 by DNA]
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
this maybe the original dupont patent
NEW EXPLOSIVE
Fassnocht et al.
Patent number: 2992087
Filing date: Nov 3, 1959
Issue date: Jul 1961
The present invention relates to an explosive composition. More
particularly, the present invention relates to a flexible self-
supporting explosive composition containing pentaerythritol
tetranitrate of specific particle size and to a method of fabricating
the composition.
FLEXIBLE EXPLOSIVE CONTAINING RDX AND/ OR
HMX AND PROCESS THEREFORE
Hooper et al. Patent number: 3354010
Filing date: Jan 27, 1967
Issue date: Nov 1967
I believe Bickrord's Primasheet is rubber based. Byda
Bickford took over the Detacord copyright from DuPont.
djh
----
Local families denounced the study,
saying it would provide no comfort to
mothers whose infants had died from
heart mummers and Down Syndrome.
California Company’s Study Says PCB’s
Did Not Harm Babies.
New York Times 14i11
|
|
|
Maniak
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 26-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Latex is also useful for rubbery flexible sheets, but if mixed using latex emulsion alone, sheets will be nearly non-sticky. Addition of some
plasticizer may improve this, but you must consider type of polymer base of latex in view of compatibility with it.
Next thing is that latex based compositions can have lower densities because of water content in latex emulsion.
In my experience, sensitivity to initiation is good at all these inert bonded mixtures with fine PETN content over about 60%. Detasheet with NC was
63% PETN, the one with polymeric binder is about 85% PETN (see Fedoroff's Encyclopedia III, D-99). 75-80% filling is easily reached with
polystyrene/DBP.
You can check, if you speak czech  :
http://spisy.upv.cz/Applications/1995/PPVCZ1995_2130A3.pdf
[Edited on 19-1-2011 by Maniak]
[Edited on 19-1-2011 by Maniak]
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
djh:
I think you're right Nov 3 rings a bell. And it was the early 60's that a lot of new construction & demo techniques were implemented from Dam
construction and urban renewal projects. I think that may be the right one.
Kalifornia has always been wasteful of both it's intellectual and natural resources; that's a study that's indisputable 
[Edited on 19-1-2011 by quicksilver]
|
|
|
nitro-genes
International Hazard
Posts: 1048
Registered: 5-4-2005
Member Is Offline
|
|
For sheet explosive I can recommend to use 1,2-PGDN+NC as a binder. I used about 3% NC, 17% PGDN and the rest PETN. (Or other crystalline HE) It has
absolutely FABULOUS plastic properties and presumably a very high VoD. For sheet explosive you should probably use slighty more NC, I would try
ratio's of NCGDN of about 6:14 or even 8:12. The NC needs very long to dissolve,
even with 5% acetone added to aid solubilization. Volatility of the PGDN could be a problem though for storing this sheet explosive for longer periods
of time. 
[Edited on 19-1-2011 by nitro-genes]
|
|
|
DNA
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: @moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Experimenting
|
|
Would it also be possible (just by means of a test) to gelatinice NC with dibutylphthalate?
|
|
|
nitro-genes
International Hazard
Posts: 1048
Registered: 5-4-2005
Member Is Offline
|
|
I know for Diethyl phtalate + NC it does quit well actually...
|
|
|
Maniak
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 26-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As I wrote in my first reply in this topic, NC is compatible with phthalates. I tried diethyl and dibutyl with good results for dough like plastic
explosives. But with any ratio, sheets with low viscosity NC will have low tensile strength. Using higher NC content, they will be harder, but more
brittle. If you bend these sheets twice, they will crack.
High molecular weight (viscosity) of dynamite grade NC can not be compensated by any plasticizer. It is why I prefer other polymers for a binder
system, which I can obtain with high molecular weight (viscosity).
|
|
|
DNA
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: @moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Experimenting
|
|
I just tried with polystyrene foam dissolved in acetone, 4g of it and 1.5ml dibutylphthalate. And 16g very fine powder. First it was too sticky (too
much plasticizer I guess) so I added 1g of extra polystyrene.
Is this in the right direction concerning ratios of plasticizer and polymer since in this topic also NC : PGDN ratio of about 6:14 or even 8:12 is
suggested.
Or is this uncomparable to polymer(styrofoam) and NC.
I'll keep you updated
[Edited on 21-1-2011 by DNA]
[Edited on 21-1-2011 by DNA]
|
|
|
Jimbo Jones
Hazard to Others
Posts: 102
Registered: 15-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DNA | Okay, thanks a lot for all the input!
So high viscosity NC preparation is like almost out of the question as I understand. I'll try the styrofoam and a plasticizer with acetone and some
inert fine powder (i.e baking flour) to test with.
Jimbo Jones, do you still have some data from your experiments, that way I have some guidelines where I can start with.
[Edited on 18-1-2011 by DNA] |
It’s 9 gr. RDX, 1 gr. Styrofoam and some acetone to bind the ingredients. The whole mass was very crumble, so I just mold it by hand. The finished
explosive is hard, with plastic appearance. No visible crystals of RDX on the surface, very hard to broken apart. Extremely difficult to initiation,
so a big compound cap and some sort of cap attachment (a metal, or plastic clips) is also a nice thing to remember.
http://img339.imageshack.us/i/44033.jpg/
http://img193.imageshack.us/i/44039.jpg/
http://img7.imageshack.us/i/44074.jpg/
http://img441.imageshack.us/i/44081.jpg/
|
|
|
DNA
Hazard to Others
Posts: 191
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: @moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Experimenting
|
|
I can also get ahold of polyisobutene and polybutene but what are the molecular weights of these polymers to be applicable here?
|
|
|
Maniak
Harmless
Posts: 45
Registered: 26-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't know any real sheet explosive with PIB binder, but check GB1082641 for some info
|
|
|
Jimbo Jones
Hazard to Others
Posts: 102
Registered: 15-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So a PGDN & NC for all energetic sheets and silicone for more commercial looking product. By the way, on the old roguesci. someone have posted
links to arabic terrorist videos. One of them was suicide vest based on trinitronaphtalene, EGDN and NC explosive sheet. Considering the poor
equipment, the results was very impressive.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
