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Author: Subject: Selection of a primary
prometheus1970
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Selection of a primary

I was wondering if there is a way to determine if a given primary/primary booster combination will generate sufficient energy to initiate a given secondary charge. Could it be something as simple as: any explosive material will detonate when initiated by a force equal to 40% of it's Vod"? Or is that an arbitrary and unrelated function of detonability?

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crazedguy
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From my understanding it has to be strong enough to produce a shock wave that causes detonation in the secondary, if it was 40% almost all primarys would work for secondarys.
What you should do is go to this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_material#Primary_expl... then pick the primary that will work for your access to chemical, try to stay away from peroxides and one of those primarys should work to set off your secondary.

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prometheus1970
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Thanks for the link (also I liked your videos). I guess there is no formula for determining how high the initiating Vod must be?

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crazedguy
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Don't quote me on this but I have never head different so to my knowledge primaries have the right amount of heat/pressure/force to cause detonation propagation, the only explosive primaries can't detonate fall into the category of tertiary. This category is high explosives like ANFO that need a booster which would be a secondary.

Nobody has ever really said anything about my vids, sad thing is I don't have the better ones on video. A lot of good times though

[Edited on 22-1-2011 by crazedguy]

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prometheus1970
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Thanks again, very helpful.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you.
quicksilver
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Remember that you are essentially producing a train that can "flow" in it's transfer of energy expended during a given time-frame AND casement design. One such factor is the RDX vs PETN issue. BOTH had been used as base compositions but PETN was deemed the better choice as it maintained a higher VoD in smaller amounts.
In a generality: RDX appeared the ideal for a war-head design while PETN appear the better for a "det-cord" design. Although both were fairly equal in strength, speed, initiation, etc.

ETN is similar to MHN in this regard: Picric acid and TNT / TNB as well. Capsule strength and construction had an enormous amount of research behind it. It was eventually decided to go with a VERY brittle "5000" aluminum of a type that "shattered" rather than ballooned as in standard "6000". The most common source of this is aluminum arrows used in archery as they are extremely strong in their longitudinal direction but will shatter viciously ("sideways"). The "faster" a capsule will be able to transfer it's internal energy in a cap design; the better!

These and other issues began presenting themselves when the use of fulminates lost favor due to shelf life and substitutes became less expensive. The compound detonator became the standard not so much due to it's economy of primary (thus safety and production issues; but due to it's ability to surpass the standard #8 of 2 grams. The azide issues with copper were well known but the striving for a Seismic detonator as well as one that the military could count on for a greatly improved detonation with a smaller booster {or lack there-of}.

Today detonators are incredibly expensive. As once they were simple caps with fulminate and a NC lacquer sealant; today they range from devices that can be initiated from BOTH electrically oriented & Nonel mechanism and maintain non-erasable serial numbers and production codes, enclosures that allow them to be used (or retrieved in bore-hole bags as well as wet-area directional blasting. There may even be no domestic "fuse caps" produced in the usual manner as there were only one company that did so back in the 1990's. However many Nonel caps may be adapted to use M700 military fuse - most are strictly advanced beyond the use of "fuse". Electric caps today that once sold for 30cents commonly sell for well over 400x that much due to the bookkeeping issues accompanied the need for explosive control. However additionally, SOME of the electric caps include "charge boosters of SMD passive circuits within to maintain strength of firing impulse over long distances. Caps have come a LONG way in the past 100yrs.

It had been well know that NATO forces and Warsaw-Pact forces designed their munitions just slightly differently so that they would never be interchangeable. While our det cap is a standard at 6mm ID the Soviet was 6mm OD....strange but true.

[Edited on 22-1-2011 by quicksilver]

prometheus1970
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Thanks for that well-thought out, lucid and very thorough reply!

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The_Davster
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Initiating ability is a bit of an experimental art, however materials with high heats of formation are better than with lower. There are some papers out there comparing DDT times with Hf values, and and there is a definite relationship. Of course this is important, as the best, unequivocal, initiating primaries have almost no DDT lag time, like silver nitrotetrazolate or silver azide for instance.

However this does not tell the whole story, as in similar compounds with very similar Hfs can have differing initiating ability, and there are a few russian papers out there claiming that the mechanism of primary decomposition plays a role, and by mass spectra, the presence of carbon dioxide, indicating a high rate of oxidation of decomposition species(compared to N2O as was observed for others), and higher decomposition heats. IIRC this was a study on N and C nitraminotetrazoles.

Of course the middle ground must be found, some exceedingly high Hf compounds, such as silverazotetrazolate (Ag2C2N10), essentially explode when touched...

Furthermore, initiating explosive VOD is only loosely correlated to initiating ability. Silver fulminate has a VOD below 2000m/s, however is a far better initiator than AP that has a much higher VOD.
But if one looks

[Edited on 23-1-11 by The_Davster]

hiperion42
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 Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster Furthermore, initiating explosive VOD is only loosely correlated to initiating ability. Silver fulminate has a VOD below 2000m/s, however is a far better initiator than AP that has a much higher VOD.

Generally speaking a compound blasting cap with for instance PETN as the base of this compound cap should be able to initiate virtually any secondary charge no?

So the high VOD of PETN has to contribute in some substantial way to the initiating effectiveness of the compound cap it is part of.

Which makes me remember what R. Bodine one time said about
initiation of picric acid. He was talking about high VOD boosters blowing the nitrated phenol to 'mist' without detonating it
(if i remember well).
He did not mention what kind of booster he was talking about.

.....ejuu....................................................................Ffg..............................g.............
crazedguy
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Blasting caps use a build up of more to less sensitive explosive materials, this is called the explosive train.
Think of it like this the train starts off of black powder (usually), then a primary, then a secondary.
Some primaries just don't have the right energy to get the train moving faster, you just need the right one for the application.

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SB15
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 Quote: Originally posted by hiperion42 Generally speaking a compound blasting cap with for instance PETN as the base of this compound cap should be able to initiate virtually any secondary charge no? So the high VOD of PETN has to contribute in some substantial way to the initiating effectiveness of the compound cap it is part of.

Yes, that's essentially the whole concept compound caps are built on. With a sensitive, high VOD nitroester as the base charge, you need comparatively smaller amounts of explosive to achieve the desired initiating ability.

prometheus1970
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The good news is I successfully made AG2C2 double salt. The bad news:

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pjig
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Not to sound like a prick..... but , what the hell are you doing smoking around primary's? Count yourself lucky.
crazedguy
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How much more dangerous is CuC2 than AgC2?
I could make copper acetylide but would have trouble getting AgNO3

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SB15
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 Quote: Originally posted by crazedguy How much more dangerous is CuC2 than AgC2? I could make copper acetylide but would have trouble getting AgNO3

Copper acetylide is too reactive with moisture to be usable as a primary. It's essentially useless for anything more than curiosity.

Silver nitrate isn't too difficult to obtain. It can be found on eBay for about $1/g in small quantities. Expensive yes, but as a decent compound cap design will only require about 50mg per charge, you won't need much. prometheus1970 Hazard to Others Posts: 138 Registered: 14-4-2010 Location: San Antonio, tx. Member Is Offline Mood: happy/ inquisitively eager Can AGNO3 applicators be used for this synthesis? I've found buttloads of those for pretty cheap. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you. The WiZard is In International Hazard Posts: 1617 Registered: 3-4-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by prometheus1970 Can AGNO3 applicators be used for this synthesis? I've found buttloads of those for pretty cheap. Why not. Just keep the tape recorder/VCR going so we will know what went wrong if you blow yourself up while experimenting! My Merck's 1907 Index sez of luna caustic [silver nitrate fused] - Cryst. silver nitrate fuses w/ 4% hydrochl. acid. Merck's Index 4th edition, 1930. Silver nitrate fused, Sticks or Cones. Molded silver nitrate — AgNO3 molded by fusion into sticks or cones, & toughened by the presence of 2-5% AgCl. The current 2006, 14th edition — Contains not less then 94.5% of silver nitrate, remainder is silver chloride. djh ---- Professor Edgeworth of All Soul's avoided conversational English, persistently using words and phrases one expects to meet only in books. One evening, Lawrence [the famous Lawrence of Arabia] returned from a visit to London, and Edgeworth met him at the gate. "Was it very caliginous in the metropolis?" "Some what caliginous, but not altogether inspissated," Lawrence replied gravely. Bert Super Administrator Posts: 2758 Registered: 12-3-2004 Member Is Offline Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".  Quote: Originally posted by prometheus1970 The good news is I successfully made AG2C2 double salt. The bad news: I was picking up the filter paper upon which the drying batch lay when a piece about the size of the head of a paper match fell off into the 6" deep saucepan where the filter was sitting. I carefelly set the filter down on the table about 1.5 feet from the saucepan thinking the depth of the pan would prevent flashover. I put a lit cigarette to the little (paper match head sized) piece when bang BANG! about .2 seconds apart scared the shit out of me and made me realize that my little test piece sent a spark into the rest of my batch. Ya know, ya really gots ta say: "hey y'all, hold my beer for me and watch this!" before doing stuff like that. Not as exciting as another of my acquaintences who was drying a couple of pounds of rocket fuel in his garage when he needed to use the bench grinder next to the drying tray for just one quick thing... If you can't separate production, storage, testing, smoking and other heat processes at all times... you're going to be useful. I need more stories to tell people I train. Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary: 1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.” 2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. Mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007). quicksilver International Hazard Posts: 1820 Registered: 7-9-2005 Location: Inches from the keyboard.... Member Is Offline Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~ Strange and common-type tragedies: Explosive was not wiped from plastic film can lid, top was snapped back in place and resulting exposition from several pieces of plastic deep into the meat of the hand. One of the pieces severed the tendon to the thumb but movement was restored after 2nd operation. The plastic had damaged a nerve and although the tendon was not severed competently; the nerve did initially not respond properly. Curved piece of glass from explosion was driven just behind rib of individual and didn't show on x-ray as it was curved to wrap around rib and hidden from front view. Infection resulted and was treated 2x before unique angle x-ray resulted issue and operation to remove object completed. Total time; well over a year of complications and treatment. "Home made" blasting cap was stored in individual's pocket and detonated (possible static issue resulting in mutilation of penis. Re-constrictive operation (penis was mutilated, etc) was unsuccessful in totality in restoring erectile capability due to lack of micro surgery at disposal of hospital where patient was able to seek tx. Injuries to penis typically demand high-end micro-surgery. "Home Experiment" with unknown explosive material blinded juvenile while in attempting to transfer substance (peroxides?) from filter paper to container (loss of both corneas) in Manhattan Beech California (Los Angles Times). "Thermite" experiment resulted in loss of eye, wherein patient ignited material on piece of corrugated metal & molten material traveled into face (conditions of movement unk). Extensive deep burning of entire eyeball resulted in inoperable damage. side note: "Toe-popper" mine used by several countries mfg in Italy (can be air delivered) known as MAUS or 1143-type AP mine copied by MANY NATO countries uses only 15.5grams of explosive has over 50% probability of genital mutilation. The interesting issues is that such a small amount of explosive (surplus or recovered RDX/HMX) is delivered from occasionally one meter away & yet provides such devastating injuries. Design attributed obviously.....(?) Smallest active AP mine designs are the Techno-VAR & the AP Blast 1138A series design by Italy and Israel in joint technical union for air dropped and other methods of delivery using NO MORE that 15.5 grams of explosive. Smallest is 8-grams in shaped charge delivery system. Therefore in proper configuration, 8 grams (1138A) is considered a military-level anti-personal (AP) charge weight. ( See: Anti-Personal Land Mines, Edward Banks, 1997) [Edited on 29-1-2011 by quicksilver] The WiZard is In International Hazard Posts: 1617 Registered: 3-4-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver Strange and common-type tragedies: How 'bout strange and uncommon ... The New York Times Monday September 2, 1907. Spanks Son - Blown Up. Mother's Blow Sets Off Cap in Boy's Pocket and Both Are Hurt. CHEBOYGAN, Mich. Sept ? Mrs. Fred Williams, living at Bear Point, on Crooked Lake, near this city was severely injured, and her seven year-old son was probably fatally hurt when a dynamite cap in the boys pocket exploded while the mother was spanking him. The little boy had been out in the field where his father was using dynamite to blow up stumps and had slipped one of the percussion caps which Mr. Williams was using in his pocket. He returned to the house, where his mother called him to be punished for some childish misdemeanor. Mrs. Williams used a shingle as the instrument of punishment. The first blow exploded the cap in the boys pocket, and the explosion tore a large hole in his hip from which he is believed to be dying. The mother lost two fingers and received a number of minor cuts about the face and body. Both Hands and Forearms Transplanted for First Time Patient Doing Well After Surgery in France The operation at Edouard-Herriot hospital was somewhat of a marathon, lasting 17 hours. The patient was a man of small build who lost his hands when a homemade rocket [shell] exploded as he was preparing to launch it. By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN An international team of surgeons performed the world's first double hand-and-forearm transplant on Thursday in Lyon, France, on a 33 year-old Frenchman who lost his hands in a fireworks accident in 1996. The same team of surgeons performed the first successful hand and forearm transplant, in September 1998, also in Lyon. In that case, Clint Hallam, a New Zealand man living in Australia, received a new right hand and forearm. In January 1999, surgeons in Louisville, Ky., gave Matthew David Scott of Absecon, N.J., a new left hand and forearm. Both men have gained varying degrees of nerve regeneration, sensation and function in their new hands, but neither has full function. Dr. Nadey Hakim, a member of the transplant team from England, said in a telephone interview yesterday that the double-hand transplant recipient was doing well. "He's awake and fine," he said. "So far so good." The immediate surgical results Appear excellent, with good blood flow through the newly connected donor and recipient arteries and veins and with no bleeding as a complication, Dr. Hakim said. As is standard, the man will have a breathing tube in his windpipe for another day or so. The doctors are watching for signs of rejection. But it will be many months before doctors can determine whether the transplant is successful and how much function the recipient, the father of two children from the Atlantic coast port of Rochefort, will regain. His name was not made public. In previous months, the team gathered twice to do the double transplant operation it had been planning since June, but each time, in September and November, a suitable donor could not be found, Dr. Hakim said. Suddenly on Wednesday, Dr Hakim and others from Australia, Spain and Italy flew to Lyon to join their French colleagues. A 19-yearold man who had fallen off a bridge was brain dead His family donated his heart, kidneys, liver and arms to different recipients. The arms were removed on Wednesday night, and the surgeons attached prosthetic arms to make the donor's body look normal. At 6 a.m. on Thursday the team began the hand-transplant surgery. Hand transplants remain experimental and controversial. Hand transplant recipients, like those who get new kidneys, hearts, livers and lungs, must take a combination of immune-system-suppressing drugs to prevent rejection of the foreign tissue. Such rejection reactions can happen at any time, but are thought to be less common with time. Loss of a hand is a major handicap. But because hands are not necessary to live and the anti-rejection' drugs pose many risks and must be taken for life, critics have raised a number of ethical issues about transplanting hands and other nonvital tissues. In recent years when doctors, ethicists and others discussed at scientific meetings whether to proceed with hand transplants, some said the , first recipients should be those who had lost both hands. They said the balance between benefits of renewed, function and risks of rejection and damage from drugs favored double-hand amputees because they had ignore to gain than individuals who had lost only one hand and were less handicapped. Long-term immunosuppression treatment leaves an individual more vulnerable to infection, diabetes, weakened bones and other problems. The French team said it had received permission from committees that oversee the ethics of human experimentation and had financial support from French health officials for a pilot study of five hand-transplant operations at an estimated cost of$50,000
each. Ideally, Dr. Hakim said, the team will perform double-hand transplants but will do
one arm if there is a suitable patient.

At a news conference yesterday, Dr. Jean-Michel Dubernard, who headed the team
of 50 doctors, nurses and other health workers that performed the double-hand,. trans-
plant, said the patient was "strong willed, tenacious and with the spirit of a marathon
runner."

The operation at Edouard-Herriot hospital was somewhat of a marathon, lasting 17
hours. The patient was a man of small build who lost his hands when a homemade
rocket exploded as he was preparing to launch it.

Two teams of surgeons operated on each side. Dr. Marco Lanzetta from Milan led one
team, and Dr. Guillaume Herzberg from Lyon led thee other. They attached the hand
and forearm about four to five inches below each elbow - about the same place where
they attached the new arm of their previous recipient, Mr. Hallam.

The surgeons attached scores of blood vessels, tendons, muscles and nerves and
other tissues in each, arm. Throughout the operation, they gave the patient about a
dozen unites of blood and gallons of fluids.

Although the operation was long, and tedious, the biggest risk in such surgery is the
risk of rejection and the potential hazards of the drugs to prevent it.

The man has begun receiving the same regimen of four powerful
immunosuppressive drugs that was given to Mr. Hallam: anti-lymphocytic serum,
tacrolimus, mycophenolate and steroids.

In addition, the new recipient will undergo rigorous physical and other rehabilitation
therapy to gain as much hand function as possible and undergo long-term
psychological testing."

"This man will be able to endure the long post-operative therapy," Dr. Dubernard said.

But if drugs cannot control any potential rejection reaction, either or both of the new
hands may have to be amputated.

In what is believed to have been the first hand transplant, performed In Ecuador in
1964, the donor hand was rejected after two weeks. significant improvements in
anti-rejection drugs, microsurgery and other therapy were major factors in the apparent
success of Mr. Hallam's and Mr. Scott's transplants. Mr. Scott is expected to go to
Louisville for follow,,* medical testing later this month.

"It's a triumph for immunology more than surgery because it shows we can do now
what we couldn't do a few years ago," Dr. Hakim said.

Flash and Report
10 06 85 [edited djh]

WAMEGO, Kan. (UPI) _ Authorities speculated explosives caused a
weekend blast so powerful it knocked a house off its foundation
and injured 14 early morning revelers, including two seriously.

Neighbors said the one story, four room house was filled with
young people who had left the town's Octoberfest celebration late
Saturday an were having a party when the blast occurred around 4
a.m. Sunday in the living room.

A bomb squad from Fort Riley removed from the house a jar of
white power _ believed to be an explosive substance _ about a
pound of flash powder and fireworks, officials said.

It was just one big boom. One side (of the house) is blown clear
out. It stripped the plasterboard off the walls on the inside. I
would say it was some kind of bomb or something. I don't think gas
would do that because there was no fire.''

Those inside the home, mainly young people in their late teens and
20s, appeared hysterical.

They were running around holding their heads. That blast probably
did pretty good damage to their eardrums.

A Pottawatomie County sheriff's investigator, said witnesses told
him there was horseplay involving fireworks that may may
triggered the blast. However, he said it was unclear what exactly
exploded.

David Stewart, 26, was charged Monday with unlawful possession
of explosives. He was being held in the Pottawatomie County jail
on \$10,000 bond.

The sheriff said Stewart, a convicted felon, was charged because it
is illegal for felons to possess firearms or explosive materials.

Authorities also found about a dozen A 80s at the house. An M 80 is
a powerful, illegal firework.

We have indications that the group of people who were injured
were playing with fireworks _ firecrackers and such _ and that
subsequent to that ... somebody brought in a container (of
explosive material. Any number of things _ a spark from a
firecracker, friction or heat could have ignited the substance. An
ATF lab in Washington D.C. was to analyze the powder, along with
another substance found at the residence, to identify them, he
said.

Flash often is used commercially to make fireworks and is so
powerful that a handful can blow off a persons hand. Another ATF
agent said two pounds of flesh powder is about as powerful as
seven or eight sticks of dynamite.

A bomb squad from Fort Riley removed from the house a jar of
white power believed to be an explosive substance about a pound
of flash powder and fireworks, officials said.

It looked like a stick of dynamite was laying in the middle of the floor and blew up.

djh
----
An explosion may be defined as a loud noise
accompanied by the sudden going away of
things from the places where they were before.

Joseph Needham

quicksilver
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There is a difference between Copper acetylide & cuprous acetylide (or cuperic acetylide).
Cuperic acetylide HAS been used in coating bridge-wires & similar in the past ad has a degree of usefulness. Synthesis is remakably easy (just like all of the acetiylides), etc, etc.
_______________________________

@ djh

Don't you love the way that some Journalism Majors write "News Stories"? What did the writer mean by "hysterical"?
We place that in context and the authorities arrive then at that point they see numerous young people are "running around"......?
Obviously I don't mean to make light of a sequence of events where people are frightened.....but "hysterical"? I wonder what the writer meant by that?

Quote:

"Those inside the home, mainly young people in their late teens and 20s, appeared hysterical.

They were running around holding their heads. That blast probably did pretty good damage to their eardrums."

********************************

[Edited on 30-1-2011 by quicksilver]

-=HeX=-
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Fuck-ups with primaries are permanent. I had mine, I won't forget that. Once I find that picture I took i can always post it for you as a reminder.

Seriously, always use caution. Never smoke near your explosives. never smoke while USING them. Its a darwin award wannabe thing to do IMHO.

I feel sorry for the dude who blew his manlihood to shreds.

IMHO the Azo-Clathrates are the best primaries, or the Nitrotetrazoles.

If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
prometheus1970
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 Quote: Originally posted by pjig Not to sound like a prick..... but , what the hell are you doing smoking around primary's? Count yourself lucky.

Number 1. That was pretty much the whole point of that post (that I was really lucky to have learned a lesson at so little cost)
Number 2. I had lit the cigarette in order to test the match head sized piece in the saucepan. I was thinking it would be more like tatp. It would deflagrate in a very localized poof of fire. Instead it popped more like armstrongs mix with chunky mg bits sending little bits of hot metal flying outward. At first I had decided not to post that incident here (out of shame), but I decided that if I'm to hope to get any useful help from this forum it's best if my confidants know exactly the kind of dipshit with whom they're dealing. I now have a great deal of respect for AG2C2 DS (both in terms of fear, as well as awe of its potential) for this compound and all primaries. Also, the amounts I mentioned above are not accurate at all, I was still thinking of the density of other powders which aren't as fine as silver acetylide.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you.
prometheus1970
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By the way is it realistic to expect 1 gram of AG2C2 DS per gram of AGNO3 used, or how does one predict/control/limit one's output when doing this synth?

[Edited on 1-30-2011 by prometheus1970]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you.
prometheus1970
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The lit cigarette setting off the first piece was not accidental, it was retarded (I didn't realize that it would throw sparks like it did). I'm not claiming that I wasn't foolish, but It was not careless (I was testing the tiny piece). Now I understand that with primaries, if you test, you do it with the tiniest possible amount, also you put the rest of your batch away completely (preferably under water) before you bring any ember or other heat source into the area. I'm not denying bad judgement or a lack or foresight on my part, just carelessness.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you.
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