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Author: Subject: Selection of a primary
crazedguy
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 Quote: Originally posted by prometheus1970 By the way is it realistic to expect 1 gram of AG2C2 DS per gram of AGNO3 used, or how does one predict/control/limit one's output when doing this synth? [Edited on 1-30-2011 by prometheus1970]

mass silver = 108
Well for a chemical formula of AgNO3 molar weight = 170g/mol 108/170= 63.5% silver
Ag2C2 =240g/mol 216/240 = 90% silver
So your taking off a nitrate group which is heavier than the carbon group being added so your percent Ag goes up.
This would mean there is more Ag per gram of Ag2C2 than in AgNO3, so you would get quite a bit less than a gram of Ag2C2 from a gram of AgNO3.
Not really sure what it would work out to I'm quite tired right now

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SB15
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3AgNO<sub>3</sub> + C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>2</sub> -> Ag<sub>2</sub>C<sub>2</sub>.AgNO<sub>3</sub> + 2HNO<sub>3</sub>

1.0g*(1molAgNO<sub>3</sub>/169.9g)*(1molAg<sub>2</sub>C<sub>2</sub>.AgNO<sub>3</sub>/3molAgNO<sub&g t;3</sub>*(409.7g/1molAg<sub>2</sub>C<sub>2</sub>.AgNO<sub>3</sub> = 0.8g

Theoretical yield is around 0.8g DS per gram of silver nitrate. In practice, expect to get about half the mass of the silver nitrate used.

-=HeX=-
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On the topic of DS, i found the vial of it Palladium gave me ages back (a water suspension) that was resting under my bed... It is still in the same condition as it was, and a tiny crystal under the microscope (I used an LED as the light source) looked strange. I will try find a way to take a photo of it but it reminds me of a small rock...

Though I know the 'surface' of said crystals had deteriorated anyways from exposure to sunlight... So perhaps this effect is due to the oxide coating?

If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
quicksilver
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Palladium is wonderfully expensive now and is an investment grade precious metal! - IF I am correct it's worth is about 800+ USD per ounce. Expensive stuff.

Just a discussion opinion here but I don't think it's a case of "best" primary. Each has it's idiosyncrasies - strengths, short-comings,etc. The clathrates do stretch your NaN3, making them a great candidate for a quality primary that is very economical. Silver Azide is powerful and very predicable as well as less static sensitive than lead azide.... but it's costly.

Silver acetlyide runs neck to neck with HMTD for ease of mfg but both do best under a refrigerated environment. But HTMD is a damn effective initiator. I actually wouldn't even include TATP here; it has lousy initiating strength and is just too static sensitive (aside from needing the refrigerated environment for a solid 6 month shelf life) - personally I think it's junk.
Hg fulminate can last an enormous length of time if you control the temp. USBoM did a study where fulminate kept below 10 C would unquestionably last 5 yrs. It may continue. * The Tetrazoles are worthy but costly in a sense: I don't know if they have the initiating power of azides but are not uncommon in industry thus they must have some edge over many others.

If I could only buy one box of caps I would buy something with a silver azide initiator and PETN base (just my opinion).

*Side note:

Old fuse caps found near Alaska railroad tunnels, mountain wedges, etc, kept their strength and many were 70+ yrs old! Fulminate can last IF kept cool.

[Edited on 31-1-2011 by quicksilver]

prometheus1970
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Speaking of AG2C2 DS, I assume that, like other primaries, it is more effective if pressed?

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you.
-=HeX=-
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Quicksilver - Palladium is the user who donated the DS, I wish I had some Palladium! I had some Pd wire ages back but those intermetallics were too fascinating for me...

Also, the electric matches I now use for my caps use DS as part of the initiating mix. And normally it is silver or lead azide in the cap itself as the primary - I prefer the silver azide for some reason.

If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
quicksilver
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Right. I'm getting too old.

Reversing that topic for just a moment; I think using a microscope is invaluable in chemistry and can certainly have very serious safety considerations with azides (needles). However I have searched for a decent adapter to take digital pictures for quite some time and never really been satisfied. No exaggeration, I have returned 3 products thus far as even costly ones have shortcoming if one uses oil immersion microscopy. The last one was a Celestron (inexpensive....like $60-70). If someone ever does make a fine adapter I would likely part with up to$150. But Olympus had a adapter for their lens that WAS fine...And of course I own a Cannon and a Nikon.

-=HeX=-
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My bloody microscope is USELESS! I borrowed an adaptor (off brand) from the Microbio lab today and the thing wouldnt come up with a damn thing. I will now attempt to bring the sample into college to look at.

I also noticed the quality when compared to the 'scopes I use in Bio is terrible - ah well, I think I got it from a kids science set years ago!

Naturally, being a student with no job, budget is tight... So i think I will be trying to convince my Supervisor to let me use the 'scopes and such to look at my stuff. Though with AgN3, recrystallization from NH4OH gives pourable spherical crystals

Today I had a thought though... What if we make a Co-PPT of AgN3 and Ag2C2... Bear with me for a moment... But a calcumated excess of AgNO3 in NH4OH soln... add the saturated soln. of NaN3 while pumping in cleaned up C2H2... Could it work out? 10% Ag2C2 would greatly benefit the sensitivity of AgN3 to fuse!

If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
quicksilver
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It would be something to try. I DO know that "DEPTH" of the gaseous exposure plays an important role. If one were to have (example) a beaker and a test-tube as containers, the depth of the test-tube makes a substantial difference in quality as well as yield. The LONGER that solution can be exposed to the gas the better. In fact, if steps were taken to "seal" the both with the exposure vessel for a protracted period, it may even jump to a great yield still.

Personally I know that the 'double salt" is significantly more effective but I am not totally convinced that this is due to the molecular involvement or simply an additional nitrate per se'. One of the unique issues (TTBoMK) is that this is a "gasless" primary (or perhaps VERY low gas) in it's delivery of energy so it MIGHT be that any weight to the molecule is a significant issue. It would be an interesting experiment.

I had thought of a method to test involving a pendulum-concept. A small pendulum is devised to receive a sufficient electric arc to initiated the primary and that primary would be attached to one side of this pendulum. Equal weights of primaries could then be examined for their "push" on the device. The advantage would be control of the initiating procedure, maintaining small size, & uniformity in "work provided".

Ral123
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Following the advice for the arrow aluminium I decided to test the concept. My first metal device. To make things more interesting I used picric acid instead of hexogen. Just a note that such a composition (LA/TNP/metal) is very bad as stability. I would expect such an effect with petn or something like this, but this done by picric acid is awesome.
Can this be done with the R-salt?
The_Davster
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 Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver The Tetrazoles are worthy but costly in a sense: I don't know if they have the initiating power of azides but are not uncommon in industry thus they must have some edge over many others.

Silver nitrotetrazolate has a lower mass than lead azide needed to initiate tetryl. Comparable in performance to silver azide but a little less sensitive.

Cu(I) nitrotetrazolate is the most likely lead azide replacement out there currently.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/ThursdayReunionMichael...

Ral123
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Lead azide is not much by mass. It's strong volume basis. What benefits will these exotic primaries give over lead/silver azide?
Ral123
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That test shows that the previous straw of TNP didn't detonate because the AP didn't provide sufficient shock. Here azide was used and it detonated to the end. Btw azide has more energy volume based then TNP and TNT according to the russian wiki.
Ral123
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Here's something I don't understand
wiki:
"Many detonators' primary explosive is a material called ASA compound. This compound is formed from lead azide, lead styphnate and aluminium and is pressed into place above the base charge, usually TNT or tetryl in military detonators and PETN in commercial detonators."
Who the hell would want to use TNT as base charge and why not RDX?
The_Davster
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 Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 Here's something I Who the hell would want to use TNT as base charge and why not RDX?

In small charges TNT outperforms RDX, RDX needs a larger diameter to reach maximum performance. PETN would outperform TNT of course, but is far more sensitive.

The_Davster
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 Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 Lead azide is not much by mass. It's strong volume basis. What benefits will these exotic primaries give over lead/silver azide?

Lead and azide are both toxic. Toxicity of lead azide is the main reason it is being replaced. Silver azide is a little too sensitive and costly for use. www.serdp.org/content/view/pdf/10136

From the home use side, the other primaries do not have the habit of spontaneously detonating during synthesis if the crystals get too large. Pure lead azide is not used, RD1333 LA is, which is crystallized in the presence of carboxymethylcellulose to prevent the possibility of spont. det. during synthesis, and give desired particle morphology.

Ral123
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Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster
 Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 Here's something I Who the hell would want to use TNT as base charge and why not RDX?

In small charges TNT outperforms RDX, RDX needs a larger diameter to reach maximum performance. PETN would outperform TNT of course, but is far more sensitive.

I have no idea how TNT outperforms RDX, da*n hexogen is hammer sensitive. I use it as a base for micro foil detonators and it works fine.
EGDN blast jelly with azide only-low brisanse.
EGDN blast jelly with azide-hexogen-high brisanse.
EGDN blast jelly mixed with rdx with azide only detonator-high brisanse.

What's with the toxicity, I have my azide, tetryl and hexogen all over my place in plates for drying and containers.
Ral123
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I don't know if I annoy someone with that topic, but I'm doing crude calculations, witch suggest that AP has about 3.4kj/g at least. For comparison TNT-4.2kj/g EGDN-7.4kj/g. One volume of AP should have more then 50% of the energy of one volume lead azide.
Is it true that:
O2+2C=2CO /221j per 2 moles
O2+C=CO2 /393,5j per mole
So depending on the products, the energy can be quite a bit more.
So excess carbon in a certain formula gives endotermic reactions witch greatly reduce energy and are worse then dead weight?
C+H2O=H2+CO
CO2+C=2CO
PHILOU Zrealone
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 Quote: Originally posted by -=HeX=- Though with AgN3, recrystallization from NH4OH gives pourable spherical crystals Today I had a thought though... What if we make a Co-PPT of AgN3 and Ag2C2... Bear with me for a moment... But a calcumated excess of AgNO3 in NH4OH soln... add the saturated soln. of NaN3 while pumping in cleaned up C2H2... Could it work out? 10% Ag2C2 would greatly benefit the sensitivity of AgN3 to fuse!

The coprecipitate idea is a good one, except AgN3 is quite sensitive vs Ag nitrate-acetylide complex.
And most of all AgNO3 is uncompatibe with NH4OH...because if forms Ag3N, Ag2NH and Ag-NH2 a touchy explosive; fulminating silver (not silver fulminate!) or silver amidure... the nightmare of mirror makers.

Personnaly is like the admixture of 1/3 (silver acetylide nitrate complex) AgC#Ag.xAgNO3.yHNO3 (the white-pale grey version well washed not the black unproperly washed!) and 2/3 of nickel nitrate hydrazine complex (Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2).
Both powders are unsoluble and mixed when dry and form a pink-grey mixture with a VOD between 6000 and 7000 m/s.

[Edited on 29-10-2012 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

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Swede
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DS is interesting... easy to synthesize, but as noted, it does not deflagrate in tiny quantities, it detonates.

An interesting experiment is to "drizzle" minute quantities onto a safe concrete floor. Find one of the specks on the perimeter, and ignite it. Its tiny little shock wave easily travels to (and initiates) the other specks in the vicinity.

Obviously, we are talking about microgram specks, hearing and eye protection, etc.

Properly prepared, I think it has a lot of merits.
AndersHoveland
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What about nitrating benzotriazole, then forming a lead or copper salt? The lead salt of dinitrobenzotriazole might have good properties as a primary.

Benzotriazole used as a corrosion inhibitor for treating copper pipes, and readily available from industrial plumbing suppliers. It rather inexpensive, but may be difficult to buy in smaller than bulk quantities.

I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
AndersHoveland
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It was mentioned in another thread that it may be more difficult to add a second nitro group onto benzotriazole.

Even 4-nitrobenzotriazole may make a good ingredient in a cheddite-like composition, perhaps with KClO4.

Chlorination of nitrobenzene (with FeCl3 and Cl2 in the absence of water) results in 3-nitrochlorobenzene. Perhaps 4-nitrobenzotriazole could be chlorinated, then reacted with anhydrous NH3 gas to substitute on an amino group. (substituting the chlorine atom with an amine group is not a simple matter and depends whether the chlorine group is activitated, discussed elsewhere in this forum). Then perhaps the amino group could be diazotized or something.