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Author: Subject: Making fire (youtube collaborative video)
NurdRage
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[*] posted on 28-4-2011 at 08:42


Since this is a community project, i will do what the contributors vote on.

Putting it on my channel we get more views upfront and we directly reach my 71000 subscribers. I will put links all over the video directly to contributor channels so the publicity is big.

Downside is that ads will probably be put on it and the contributors might not like me being "unjustly enriched" by that.

Putting it on a special channel negates that downside. I can't make money off it and everyone gets equal exposure. Downside to this is that the views are more variable. We may get lucky and the video catches on, or it might get lost into obscurity and only get a few hundred views.

I'm sure those of you with your own channels know how painful it is to start up. I remember the days when i get got 1-3 views on my videos.

So it'll leave it up to the contributors where they want to place the video.
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hkparker
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[*] posted on 28-4-2011 at 15:26


I really don't care if you make ad money off this NurdRage, but that's just me. I mean I'm getting publicity for this because of you, so its not like you arn't doing a service for me.

If other contributes feel otherwise yet still want it on NurdRage's channel it isn't hard to disable revenue sharing in the my videos section of YouTube, that way they won't put an ad on. Least that's how it works for me, I don't know if you have something else worked out NurdRage.

I like the idea of it's own channel, and I think if you put a video up NurdRage that points people to that channel we will still get significant views (I guess all your "loyal" subscribers will check it out). If you do that maybe include a preview of all the fiery reactions to get people interested :D

I don't know for sure what I want yet... anyone else?




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mewrox99
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[*] posted on 28-4-2011 at 16:40


I'd love the publicity of having a video of mine (and a link to my channel) on the NurdRage channel. If you make a new channel the likelihood of it only getting a couple of hundred views would be high
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Formatik
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[*] posted on 1-5-2011 at 21:13


Alright, I've done some reactions, some of which I recorded. They can be used for the video also. I recently made some hydrazine hydrate (it's about 90% N2H5OH) and tested some of its reactions with several oxidants. Though it reacted vigorously with all, KMnO4 is the only oxidant that showed flame or some ignition. But the reaction is much more violent and short lived than a regular ignition, and so it does not produce a good burn.

The hydrazine hydrate in several drops sizzles vigorously forming gases with conc. HClO4, RFNA, Piranha acid (52%H2O2 with H2SO4), forming salts. With the chlorine oxidants: NaDCC, TCCA, halogenated hydantoins all sizzle vigorously giving white smoke forming some deep yellow color. The reaction with the halogenated hydantoins crackled a bit also (NCl3 formation possible). Ca(OCl)2 which is aged and clumpy and was said to be around 70%, sizzled giving off smoke without the color. When the hydrate was dripped onto potassium peroxodisulfate crystals, after a short delay the mixture got hot and gave off a large quantity of white smoke. All of the powdered piles seen below were volcano shaped to facilitate absorption better. Also recorded was the reaction of the hydrazine hydrate with about 52% H2O2 which is similar to a mixture tested by Germans as a rocket fuel. I wore a respirator and worked outside for all reactions, because it is the least necessary measure for health.

The reaction of KMnO4 with the hydrazine hydrate (on a tissue, and the other not):

N2H5OHwithKMnO4.png - 305kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0YNSGSBP
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ROT8PLOH

The tissue allowed better contact with the hydrate, because these two react so violently. The reaction does produce some flame and fireballs, but no ignition. Adding methanol in equal volume to the hydrate before reaction, made the reaction much milder without flame.

KMnO4 with 90% DMSO:

DMSOwithKMnO4.png - 279kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=K3WQ7X5I

The KMnO4 must be pulverized, or it doesn't work. Since DMSO and DMF react, KMnO4 might also react vigorously or ignite with other polar aprotic solvents like N-methylpyrrolidone, dimethylacetamide, tetramethylurea, tetramethylenesulfone, hexamethylphosphoramide, etc.

Brake fluid with KMnO4:

KMnO4withbrakefluid.png - 263kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W152NKV6
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2O1XH3VV

Polyglycol ether brake fluid. Though there is normally a delay, the mixture has no consistent delay, since in one of the videos the mixture ignited right after mixing. In another instance, a 17 second delay.

Sodium dichloroisocyanurate (finely powdered) with 90% DMSO:

NaDCCandDMSO.png - 276kB

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NCA2ECK3

The gases from this reaction are especially horrible-smelling, and probably highly toxic.

Some other reactions:

Halogenated hydantoins with the hydrazine hydrate:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=K89TT5YZ

Violent interaction with a chlorinator containing 1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin, 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin, and 1,3-dichloro-5-ethyl-5-methylhydantoin.

Hydrogen peroxide (around 52%) with the hydrazine hydrate:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JEJLRJ6L

The hydrogen peroxide was added last here. The mixture has a very short delay, then begins frothing and gases off violently until both liquids are basically entirely evaporated. The reaction reminds me of a rocket that gases off before lift off. This reaction like all other hydrazine reactions vaporizes unreacted highly toxic hydrazine into the air.

[Edited on 2-5-2011 by Formatik]
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woelen
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[*] posted on 1-5-2011 at 22:40


A very violent and interesting reaction is the reaction between periodic acid and hydrazine.

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/hydrazine_pe...

I only had a dilute solution of hydrazine, made from N2H4.2HCl and NaOH. If you have the pure stuff, then I can imagine that this results in a very violent blast, possibly with fire.




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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 1-5-2011 at 23:50


Thanks Formatik, i've downloaded the vids. Impressive work.


Woelen, are you submitting your vids for the project as well? and if so, which one? or both?
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[*] posted on 2-5-2011 at 01:43


You may use the video's from that webpage for your project, but there is no real fire involved. I merely provided this page as an idea for someone who has access to pure or 90% hydrazine and solid periodic acid. That combination would be really awesome, given the violence of the reaction of that dilute solution, which I used in my experiments. But if you want to use these videos anyway, then you may download them from my site and put them in your YouTube channel.

What might be more interesting for your project is the reaction between chlorine gas and acetylene gas, which I have filmed. I also filmed the reaction between chlorine gas and phosphine. Finally, you may find the reaction of a red P/Al/KNO3 mix, which is thrown in chlorine gas interesting for your channel. You may use the videos from these pages as well:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/cl2_c2h2/ind...
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/ph3_cl2/inde...
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/chlorine_fla...

I have a few more experiments in which fire is made without a heat source (e.g. Mn2O7 in which acetone is dripped), but others already have contributed videos for that. I think that the above three are quite interesting for your project.


Maybe I'll try a few "idiot experiments" (at a very small scale) next weekend for your project:
- LiAlH4 mixed with very fine powder of KClO4 and adding a tiny drop of water
- LiAlH4 mixed with crunched crystals of KClO3 and adding a tiny drop of water
- LiAlH4 mixed with crunched crystals of 80% NaClO2/20% NaCl and adding a tiny drop of water
I can imagine that even mixing of these chemicals is a dangerous thing on its own, LiAlH4 can self-ignite in air. So, I'll use very small quantities and use a long thin stick for carefully mixing these. These mixes must be very energetic. I have some LiAlH4 (which was donated to me) and up to now I have not done a single experiment with that, simply because it is so insanely reactive. I'll try to make movies of these, but if these reactions are too dangerous and I cannot handle these mixes then I'll skip this. I do not want to run the risk of injury.

[Edited on 2-5-11 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 2-5-2011 at 14:20


Formatik how did you make the 90% hydrazine hydrate ? :o
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mewrox99
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[*] posted on 3-5-2011 at 03:02


Woelen your ideas sound brilliant and am really looking forward to the video
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Formatik
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[*] posted on 3-5-2011 at 16:23


Quote: Originally posted by Jor  
Formatik how did you make the 90% hydrazine hydrate ? :o


Check the hydrazine thread for more details.
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[*] posted on 3-5-2011 at 22:09


Woelen, I do not have periodic acid or I would have tried it out.
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[*] posted on 5-5-2011 at 10:40


I tried the mix of LiAlH4 and KClO4 (stoichiometric ratio is 1 gram of LiAlH4 to 3.65 gram of KClO4). I made this mix in this stoichiometric amount, total amount was appr. 0.1 gram. Adding a single small drop of water does not ignite the mix, which surprises me. Probably the KClO4 acts as a heat sink, taking away the heat of the reaction between LiAlH4 and water.

The mix can easily be ignited with a flame and then it burns fast, very fast, with a white flame showing many small sparks around the flame. But this is not something for this project, it is cheating, because the mix is ignited by means of a flame.




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mewrox99
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 01:07


Quote:
[quote "woelen"]LiAlH4 mixed with crunched crystals of 80% NaClO2/20% NaCl and adding a tiny drop of water


You should try that, I imagine it would be hypergolic and ferociously exothermic

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by mewrox99]
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 05:06


@Woelen

Interesting! were you taking pictures or filming at the time? while it can't be used for the project it would be cool just to watch :)

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by NurdRage]
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 08:16


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
I tried the mix of LiAlH4 and KClO4 (stoichiometric ratio is 1 gram of LiAlH4 to 3.65 gram of KClO4). I made this mix in this stoichiometric amount, total amount was appr. 0.1 gram. Adding a single small drop of water does not ignite the mix, which surprises me. Probably the KClO4 acts as a heat sink, taking away the heat of the reaction between LiAlH4 and water.

The mix can easily be ignited with a flame and then it burns fast, very fast, with a white flame showing many small sparks around the flame. But this is not something for this project, it is cheating, because the mix is ignited by means of a flame.


I suspect that potassium perchlorate is the least reactive oxyhalide.
It is a strong oxidising agent but it needs a good kick to get it going.
I cannot think of any oxidations that it will carry out uncatalysed in aqueous solution for instance.
I suspect that sodium hypochorite or chlorite would react more vigorously

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 09:44


ScienceSquirrel,

If you don't leave this thread, I will.
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 09:57


It is a free notice board!
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 10:03


I totally and completely agree 100%.

I am free to leave.


@Everyone who is contributing

don't worry, I'm juvenile, but i'm not THAT juvenile to kill the project. Once i have found another suitable means of collaboration (probably google docs or similar) I'll give you all links and we can continue our work there.

Feel free to continue posting here for the benefit of the sciencemadness community.
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 10:57


Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  

I'm juvenile,


So it seems... :P

I found no hostile or offensive posts by SS in this thread. Is this personal beef carried over from your posted link on luminol in the chemistry experiments/fun projects thread?

Personally I like the videos. Both yours, hkparker's, and others. While they are not a replacement for a 'proper write up' or on-hand references and calculations, they are indeed educational and very entertaining. Better than most of the fodder on the tube.




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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 13:22


I really don't want to get too involved in this, as it's probably none of my business. Haven't seen the thread Bot0nist speaks of. I also hope this thread, which has been super productive thus far in my opinion, isn't led off track.

I too don't see any offense in what SS said, a mixture of chlorite or chlorate with LiAlH4 might be a good contribution for our project. Seemed like he was just trying to help to me. If there is some grudge carried over from another thread I think we should all keep things professional and focus on the science. Many of us have very different opinions and I don't want that to effect the quality of our work. It doesn't happen very often here, that's something I've always admired about SM.

Thank you for the kind words Bot0nist, I appreciate it.




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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 13:43


I never said, nor implied, there was anything wrong with his conduct in this thread. He has been exemplary here and his contributions are appreciated by the community.

He knows why i hate his guts and we'll leave it at that.

He is fully within his right to stay in this thread, as it is my right to leave it.

Everyone is completely free to continue the scientific discussion and i encourage you to do so. I just choose not participate anymore.

This is my final post on the matter and in this thread. Any submissions (or retractions even, i fully understand if someone doesn't want to associate with me after this juvenile rant) can be made U2U. I'll personally contact video contributors when the time comes for me to edit the video together.

Please return to the scientific discussion as it should be.
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 14:30


Bye!

Good old forum ego trips. No one really cares




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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 14:36


wow, ok. Consider me still in, my new contributions will be sent via U2U. If you have another way for us to work let me know. Seeing as this is a community project I feel as though its up to everyone to decide where we should work on it, such as here, but whatever. I found the form Bot0nist spoke of. I know my personal opinion is irrelevant, so I will refrain from sharing that. I would imagine that theres is something more to this then that anyway.

Back to the science? I tried chromyl chloride with sulfur powder. The reaction was very hot but too fast in my opinion, and not much flame was observed. I melted it down to larger pieces then a powder and I will try with that. My other idea involves dripping conc. H2SO4 onto a mix of NaCl, K2Cr2O7 and sulfur powder. This will generate Chromyl chloride in situ with the sulfur powder. Thoughts?




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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 14:43


I expressed my opinion that I did not like videos on the synthesis thread.
Some people like them, some do not; I am in the latter camp.
My posts were not abusive and they were not deleted by the moderators.
Threads are public and anyone can chip in, if you want to have a private chat go to U2U.
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[*] posted on 6-5-2011 at 16:53


I read the thread, is that it? As I said earlier I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, we shouldn't let that get in the way of working together on a project. I'm sad that it is here. But I don't want to start a fight and like I also said, its none of my business so I'd rather not get involved... I digress...

A fix of finely powdered sulfur, potassium dichromate and sodium chloride does not come close to lighting on contact with conc. H2SO4. I had some trouble upscaling my synth of CrO2Cl2 as well so I'm just bailing on this one. I will no longer be trying to make a contribution based on this reaction. Anyone else have anything planned?




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