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Author: Subject: Making fire (youtube collaborative video)
hkparker
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[*] posted on 13-3-2012 at 23:44


Sorry, meant to post an update. Was waiting on word from barley81 and I'm ready to get to editing.

Been swamped with school as well. At least if I have a break in two weeks so if not by then...

Sorry again, I'm on it!




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[*] posted on 7-4-2012 at 14:12


Sorry for these delays, been busier then I'd like with school.

Editing started, should have a draft up in a few days/a week.




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[*] posted on 10-4-2012 at 12:26


Since I recently made some nearly anhydrous yellow fuming HNO3 (density = 1,52 g/ml) by vacuum distillation, I played around with some of it.
HNO3 dropped into aniline gave short puffs of flame as the acid hit the liquid, along with dense clouds of smoke. When more acid was added I got a sooty fire burning for a few seconds. There was a large amount of carbon residue.

HNO3 dropped into triethylamine was more spectacular: there was instant ignition and the triethylamine burned with a pale flame in air. Adding more HNO3 produced a hissing bright flame where the acid contacted the amine, the two didn't mix at all because the reaction was so energetic that it drove the two liquids apart upon contact. Drops of acid danced around on the surface of the amine like globules of potassium on water, engulfed in flames.
There was no carbon residue and no smoke, this was a very clean-burning combination.
This is probably a useful hypergolic liquid propellant for small demonstration rocket engines.

I could maybe try injecting HNO3 under the surface of triethylamine to get an "underwater fire" effect, although this probably gets dangerous due to burning triethylamine being splattered around.

I can test some more amines this way, although some of them are pretty expensive to be wasted this way, like ethylenediamine.
Amines show good hypergolic ignition properties with HNO3, probably since the heat of neutralization very quickly heats the liquid interface up to ignition temperature.




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[*] posted on 10-4-2012 at 13:37


That's awesome, I'd love to add those in the video.



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[*] posted on 21-4-2012 at 11:25


I filmed the hypergolic reaction with HNO3 today.

The first attempt, triethylamine poured into acid. The triethylamine was wet and of questionable quality, thus the delayed and somewhat sluggish reaction.
<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wVEi4D9_89I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Second attempt, acid poured into triethylamine. Good quality anhydrous triethylamine used this time, which seemed to make all the difference. You can see the potential as a rocket fuel.
<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/B5sUATEps6g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Are the videos working for you? Tell me what you think!

[Edited on 21-4-2012 by garage chemist]




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[*] posted on 21-4-2012 at 13:40


Yes, the videos are working - pretty impressive! Please be careful and don't get burned.



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[*] posted on 22-4-2012 at 16:04


Yep they are working. Wow, quite impressive! These are great, I'll add them to the project.



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[*] posted on 23-4-2012 at 22:15


The experiments turned out great garage chemist!

Following Urbanski's previous chart, triethylamine is one of the organic amines with the least induction period, thus the very fast reaction. I'm guessing larger amounts would react with far more oomph. Definitely one of those reactive systems that needs extra precautions in handling.
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[*] posted on 24-4-2012 at 08:26


Did you use normal 68% acid, or fuming nitric acid? The videos are impressive and they make me eager to try this myself when my lab is up and running again.



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[*] posted on 24-4-2012 at 09:36


It was yellow fuming nitric acid, vacuum distilled from H2SO4, with density of 1,52.
If I ever make some anhydrous hydrazine, then I'll have to try its combination with HNO3. Should be even more spectacular due to the much higher heat of reaction!




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[*] posted on 24-4-2012 at 11:38


Maybe you could pour the nitric acid on a mixture of KOH and hydrazine hydrate. The hydrazine might be dehydrated by the KOH and the heat of neutralization between the KOH and the HNO3 might add to the effect. I don't know whether this will work...
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[*] posted on 24-4-2012 at 13:09


Hydrazine hydrate can be dehydrated by refluxing with a large amount of NaOH prills at 100°C. Two phases are formed, the upper phase consists of 93% hydrazine, 3% NaOH and 4% water (see Brauer). Turning this liquid into anhydrous hydrazine requires BaO which I don't have and is hard to make.
The 93% hydrazine from the NaOH method could probably already be used for the demonstration, though.
I'm a bit worried about messing around with hot hydrazine like that, especially since the phase separation has to be done at 100°C.

[Edited on 24-4-2012 by garage chemist]




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[*] posted on 24-6-2012 at 01:16


I'll try to help. Alkali metals + H2O (obvious one), CaO + H2O (anothe obvious one)... But one I enjoy watching in youtube (video from ChemToddler) is the production of iron sulfide with iron powder and sulfur.
When this powder is ignited by heat or a flame, it is... spectacular, that's the word.




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[*] posted on 24-6-2012 at 16:50


First of all, I have to apologize for my extended absence. School became a lot to handle in the last month, presented at makerfaire, had to RMA my motherboard twice... anyway I'm back now and editing, and am expecting to post a rough draft of the video soon (I may take forever but I'm not giving up on it!). Not sure I'll be able to fit new submissions in but go for it, well see if it works well for the video.


EDIT:

Well I'm done. <a target="tab" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4RjREwNq0c">Here's the link</a>. I'll give it a week for people to call out spelling errors and such and fix them, after that I'll make it public.

[Edited on 25-6-2012 by hkparker]




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[*] posted on 25-6-2012 at 12:12


Nine-volt battery needs a hyphen at at 7:30 seconds.

Also at 14 seconds you need to capitalize Sciencemaddness.

Great video!




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[*] posted on 25-6-2012 at 15:51


Ok, I will add those changes next time I render it. Thank you!



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[*] posted on 25-6-2012 at 19:06


Excellent content!!!

The steel wool and ethanol + battery would be really good for camping. Too bad its not reusable.




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[*] posted on 25-6-2012 at 21:57


Thank you mr.crow!

Agreed, even still it would be pretty cheap to put together.




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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 00:34


Wonderful video. Very well put together.
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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 03:01


Good work, but why did my HNO3 and triethylamine reaction not make it into the video?



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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 07:44


Quote: Originally posted by garage chemist  
Good work, but why did my HNO3 and triethylamine reaction not make it into the video?


That's what I'm wondering also. That would be a very good one to add.

But hkparker, it looks pretty good so far. Nicely condensed.

I don't know if you are going to emphasize it somewhere, making sure to mention none of the fumes from any of the reactions are inhaled would be good, especially the sodium dichloroisocyanurate reaction.

Correction on the sugar and lead dioxide reaction in that clip: note that the reaction is with lead dioxide (PbO2), and not lead oxide (PbO or Pb3O4). Lead dioxide has been called lead(IV)oxide, but it is better to name it as dioxide for clarity sake.

Also what I was trying to mention earlier: the reaction of chlorate and nitric acid with alcohol is a violent detonation reaction, it wasn't captured in that clip shown but this is usually what it does. The alkyl ester of nitric or chloric acid likely forms in situ and then detonates. I don't know if that is suitable for fire making! My suggestion was to just use the other reaction of alcohol with potassium permanganate mixed with fuming nitric acid instead.
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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 16:02


My apologies gc, I totally forgot! I'll add those in to the next draft for sure. I forgot to download them when you posted them so they weren't in my draft folder.

I will specify the dioxide of lead.

Good point on that demo I didn't know it was usually explosive. That's not what we are going for so I will consider taking it out or replacing it.

Thanks everyone!




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[*] posted on 8-7-2012 at 21:17


Changelog:

-Hyphenated nine-volt battery
-Capitalized sciencemadness
-Edited text and voice to say lead dioxide as opposed to lead oxide
-Removed dangerous reaction between alcohol, nitric acid, and potassium chlorate.
-Added second video of triethylamine and nitric acid

<a target="tab" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUZNXi74ulk">Video here</a> (uploading at the time of this post, may be a couple hours).

Once again I'll give it about a week or two for corrections.




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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 05:11


The steel wool/ethanol part has no text on the intro. Great video, though. I'll have to try the NaDCCA one sometime.
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 17:16


That is correct about the clip I submitted of IPA and chloric acid. It did make a very loud couple of pops before igniting so I kept it very small scale. It is defiantly not a reaction I would want anyone to repeat on a larger scale. I think I mentioned it when I submitted it. If you feel it is inappropriate, please remove it. The video looks amazing HK, as did the last. I am honored to have seen it all transpire.

Thanks again, and good luck at school.


Edit: here it is.
Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KTVMGJLP
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=R2HTQK2M
Here you are. I have never used megaupload, I hope it works.

I wanted to scale up the reaction a tad to make them more interesting, but in my first two attempts with the IPA mix I observed what very much to me sounded like detonations. Unexpected detonation like sounds make me very jumpy.


[Edited on 11-7-2012 by Bot0nist]




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