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Author: Subject: Useing a balloon for a oxyhydrogen explosive?
crazedguy
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Useing a balloon for a oxyhydrogen explosive?

So I came up with the idea that you could put a balloon on a water bottle and capture the gases made by electrolysis.
The point of this would be to either tape a fuse to the balloon which would provide a sufficient bang, but I think it may be possible to get a better bang by strapping a small flash powder fire cracker to it.

So the question is would this provide better bang by setting it off with a small flash powder bomb would that get a full detonation, or would it be the same as just using a fuse?
I know that by adding 1 gram flash to set it off will be slightly louder but would it achieve full detonation. (1 gram-ish)

Would a balloon full of oxyhydrogen float?

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Bert

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Yes, it will go bang. No, it isn't a good idea. If you must try it, use remote electrical ignition NOT a hand lit fuse, and be aware that static electricity can easily ignite the contents unexpectdly during filling and handling.

Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

crazedguy
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Static is a good point I will spray the balloon with anti static spray, and use my wrist strap while I tie it.
And you didn't answer the question, will it go high order, a full detonation?

[Edited on 28-1-2011 by crazedguy]

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holmes1880
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You're not detonating hydrogen with an FP firecracker. But you can burn off your face with it. From what I've seen, oxyacetyline is more powerful and equally dangerous.

Gases are the most volatile forms and static loves baloons. Put two and two together.
SB15
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Oxygen/Hydrogen will undergo DDT, but the runup distance at atmospheric pressure is typically larger than what a balloon would supply.

Flash powder ignition may work, but you'd be better off using an actual high explosive blasting cap to initiate detonation. I've used my DOP*/ETN compound caps to initiate oxygen/propane, oxygen/propylene, and oxygen/acetylene, with the adjacent peak pressure recording gauges reading much higher than the predicted adiabatic combustion pressures in all cases.

*Deadly Organic Peroxide, TCAP or HMTD. Replace with silver acetylide if possible.

[Edited on 1-28-2011 by SB15]

crazedguy
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Well I just don't want to use a H.E. cap, but I figure flash ruptures its case above the speed out sound so it should be able to transfer a shock wave through the oxyhydrogen maybe.

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DNA
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Another problem is that hydrogen is a very small molecule, so it will just diffuse through the balloon, and there will be a invisible cloud of hydrogen OUTSIDE and AROUND the balloon.
So be very careful with this.
ScienceSquirrel
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You are better off using propane. The balloon is easy to fill from a blowlamp and it can be ignited with a piece of string as a fuse. Stand well back as it produces a sizable fireball from even a small balloon.
Adding air or oxgen will make quite an explosion.
Have a look at YouTube for videos.
hissingnoise
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Marking the valves of an oxyacetylene torch to give a neutral flame, filling a balloon or large plastic bag with the ensuing mixture and igniting it remotely would wake all the people unfortunate enough to be your neighbours . . .
What fun?

-=HeX=-
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Perhaps foaming the gas mix in a polymeric bubble mix to form a 'foam' ala LEXFOAM could be interesting, IIRC nbk coined the idea. It would be fairly cool to fill a void with the shit then ignite it...

If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
grndpndr
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I had the same Idea OT(Hiss. neutral mix) using acetylene for obvious reasons
as a rifle target using tracers.Obviously the practice would have to be limited to winter around here but I dont think it illegal,after all binary explosives are sold for the same purposes but at exorbitant $.A good size party balloon makes a hell of a bang.Should one be unfortunate enough to be holding said balloon and it detonated your eardrums are at serious peril of being perforated.Maybe Kewl but sounds like fun to me [Edited on 28-1-2011 by grndpndr] The WiZard is In International Hazard Posts: 1617 Registered: 3-4-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by crazedguy So I came up with the idea that you could put a balloon on a water bottle and capture the gases made by electrolysis. Essays on Science and Society Adam Hart-Davis James Watt and the Lunaticks of Birmingham Science 292 [5514] 55-56 6 April 2001 "The Luna Society* believed in argument and cooperation. They had long discussions about why thunder rumbles and decided the best way to test their various theories was by experiment. Boulton made a 5-foot-diameter balloon from varnished paper, and they filled it with a terrifying mixture of air and hydrogen ("inflammable air from iron"), They lit a fuse underneath, released the balloon in to the night sky on a clam, clear evening and waited for the bang. unfortunately, the fuse was rather long, and they all assumed it must have gone out; so they to talk among themselves, when there was a colossal explosion, and they all said, "There it goes!" and forgot to listen for the rumble! [James] Watt was at home 3 miles away and wrote that the bang was "instantaneous and lasted about one second." This seems self-contradictory, but in any case, the experiment failed to produce a simple answer to the original question." *The Luna Society started ca. 1765 was started by Erasmus Darwin (grandfather of Charles D.), included among others; William Small teacher and mentor of Thomas Jefferson, James Watt (who did not invent the steam engine), Joseph Priestly, and potter Josiah Wedgwood, Darwin's other grandfather. ———————— "Watt's third lucky break came in the shape of the new boring machine invented by ironmaster John "Iron-mad" Wilkinson. Wilkinson was a splendid larger-than-life character who wanted to make everything from iron. ….. in a corner of his office he kept his own iron coffin, which he proudly showed off to visitors. (This caused some trouble when he died, for his wooden coffin turned out to be too big to fit in the iron one; so they had to bury him temporarily in the garden while they cast another iron coffin. Then they dug him up, put his wooden coffin in the new iron one, and found it would not fit in the hole in the rock. So again they buried him temporarily, blasted a bigger hole, dug him up, successfully buried him, and placed a large iron obelisk on the grave. Unfortunately, the house changed hands a few years later, and the new owners did not like this great 20-ton iron pillar in front of their sitting-room window; so poor Iron-mad was dug up yet again and buried for the fourth time at Lindale in the Lake District.)" grndpndr International Hazard Posts: 508 Registered: 9-7-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood 'Lunatiks of Birmingham' seems appropriate.Cast Iron coffin! How many pallbearers?!LOL The WiZard is In International Hazard Posts: 1617 Registered: 3-4-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr 'Lunatiks of Birmingham' seems appropriate.Cast Iron coffin! How many pallbearers?!LOL Buried in the Lake District.... a Lunatick... brings to mind two poets. djh ---- “The paradox of the fall of the Shah,” Mr. Milani says, “lies in the strange reality that nearly all advocates of modernity formed an alliance against the Shah and chose as their leader the biggest foe of modernity.” The Iranians have already paid dearly for this folly. What price the rest of the world will pay remains an open question. John Muravchik Wall Street Journal 19I11 Review of : Abbas Milani - A Monarch Dethroned Palgrave Mcmillian crazedguy Hazard to Others Posts: 143 Registered: 12-11-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: You can't fix stupid  Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise Marking the valves of an oxyacetylene torch to give a neutral flame, filling a balloon or large plastic bag with the ensuing mixture and igniting it remotely would wake all the people unfortunate enough to be your neighbours . . . What fun? I live next to a welding shop, so access to oxy isn't a problem, but that is not the point. The correct way to do that is to set it to a perfect flame and tap it on something so it goes out. You all are missing the point will it become a full detonation by using a small flash bomb to set it off, and would it float. Of course it would be easier to buy the materials but that is not the fun part. Warning: i do stupid things http://www.youtube.com/user/Craz3dguy SB15 Harmless Posts: 45 Registered: 23-12-2010 Member Is Offline  Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise Marking the valves of an oxyacetylene torch to give a neutral flame, filling a balloon or large plastic bag with the ensuing mixture and igniting it remotely would wake all the people unfortunate enough to be your neighbours . . . What fun? It's much easier to use volume measurements to achieve a stoichiometric ratio of gas in the balloon. Let's see, for acetylene it would be... 2C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>2</sub> + 5O<sub>2</sub> -> 4CO<sub>2</sub> + 2H<sub>2</sub>O 5molO<sub>2</sub>/7mol*100% = 71.4% O<sub>2</sub> 2molC<sub>2</sub>H<sub>2</sub>/7mol*100% = 28.6% C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>2</sub> So figure 70/30 for a decent approximation. Assuming a large 20cm diameter spherical party balloon, that gives: V<sub>total</sub> = 4/3*pi*r<sup>3</sup> V<sub>total</sub> = 4/3*pi*(10cm)<sup>3</sup> V<sub>total</sub> = 4.2*10<sup>3</sup>cm<sup>3</sup> We would obviously add the acetylene first, as it is the smaller fraction, then add the oxygen to mix the oxidizer and fuel effectively. So, the radius of the balloon after adding the correct quantity of fuel would be: r<sub>fuel</sub> = (3*(V*0.3)/4*pi)<sup>1/3</sup> r<sub>fuel</sub> = (3*((4.2*10<sup>3</sup>cm<sup>3</sup>*0.3)/4*pi)<sup>1/3</sup> r<sub>fuel</sub> = 6.7cm So fill the balloon to d = (6.7*2) = 13.4cm with acetylene, then add oxygen until the diameter reaches 20cm. Very simple, and a hell of a lot easier than trying to snuff out a torch flame and fill the balloon with mixed gases. EDIT:  Quote: You all are missing the point will it become a full detonation by using a small flash bomb to set it off, and would it float. Yes, it will float. At STP, the density of air is approximately 1.3g/L. The density of the stoichiometric oxygen/hydrogen mixture will be: p = 2/3*(2.0g/molH<sub>2</sub>*22.4L/mol) + 1/3*(32.0g/molO<sub>2</sub>*22.4L/mol) p = 0.54g/L As for the second part of the question, no, you will not achieve a full detonation unless you use a HE initiator. Hydrogen/oxygen will transition to detonation on its own, possibly even in a volume as small as a balloon, but even with a FP device as the ignition source, the reaction will primarily consist of an accelerating deflagration. It doesn't do you much good if the flame front accelerates beyond the local speed of sound when 95% of the fuel mixture has already been consumed. Gas explosions are not very simple. [Edited on 1-28-2011 by SB15] ScienceSquirrel International Hazard Posts: 1863 Registered: 18-6-2008 Location: Brittany Member Is Offline Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! I have seen Dr Bunhead detonating balloons filled with a mixture of fuel gas and oxygen. The balloons were strung together with Visco fuse to ignite them and they detonated quite loudly. I think if you get the mixture right there is very little difficulty in getting a good explosion. Here is a link to Dr Bunhead's page, his show is worth seeing if you get the chance; http://www.bunhead.com/index.htm The WiZard is In International Hazard Posts: 1617 Registered: 3-4-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood acetylene by its lonesome MA Nettleton Gaseous Detonations : Their Nature, Effects and Control Chapman Hall 1987 p. 73 4.3 Gases and vapours which are detonable in the absence of an oxident "Probably the most important detonable gases and vapours in the context of amounts produced and transported are gaseous acetylene...." Table 4.1 Experimental data on detonation properties of exothermically-decomposed vapours. 100% C2H2 Detonation velocity in tube of infinite diameter 1.92 km/s Pressure to which D=infinity applies (Nm-sq) 8.1x10 5th Pressure limit (Nm-sq.) appx. 1.5 x 10 5th* *There is some evidence suggesting that the pressure limit may be lower when powerful imitators are used. The corresponding detonation velocity may also be lower. djh ---- The Fate of the Kilo Weighs Heavily On the Minds of Metrologist Jeanne Whalen Wall Street Journal 28I11 During the tea break at the London meeting [British Royal Society], delegates mused on the importance of accuracy. Duncan Burns, a 75-year-old chemistry professor, recalled the time he confused centigrade with Fahrenheit while cooking resins in the laboratory at his first job. “I started a bloody great fire!” He said. ---- Reminds upon me of the airliner that had to make an emergency landing when it ran out of fuel! The pilot though he had X-gallons of fuel. The aircraft had been fueld with X-liters. The NASA probe that crash landed … one group of engineers was planning landing speed in meters/second … the others feet/second. crazedguy Hazard to Others Posts: 143 Registered: 12-11-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: You can't fix stupid Well I dont like primaries so I will probably try this soon but just with a fuse and then try with the flash powder, then compare and decide if its worth it. But thanks for the info definitely. Warning: i do stupid things http://www.youtube.com/user/Craz3dguy ScienceSquirrel International Hazard Posts: 1863 Registered: 18-6-2008 Location: Brittany Member Is Offline Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! Acetylene / oxygen is a good mix in the right proportions. A big balloon filled with this will produce an ear cracking explosion. No need for a detonator, a simple string fuse will do! grndpndr International Hazard Posts: 508 Registered: 9-7-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood +1 Earsplitting! literally if to close. Marking the valves I would think be at least as accurate. Ive yet to see a balloon that was anything but vaguely spherical.KISS @ Wizard,Just 2? [Edited on 29-1-2011 by grndpndr] [Edited on 29-1-2011 by grndpndr] [Edited on 29-1-2011 by grndpndr] SB15 Harmless Posts: 45 Registered: 23-12-2010 Member Is Offline  Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr KISS What, you think a volume formula and a bit of intermediate algebra is anything but simple? Remember that the name of this site is Sciencemadness, and using a crude guess at flame stoichiometry to approximate valve positions is anything but scientific; it's caveman-esque at best. If one is actually looking to properly experiment with detonating oxygen acetylene mixtures, they should make a decent effort to control variables in their tests. Volume as a function of radius is an acceptable method; using a fixed volume metering apparatus and Boyle's law is better. Marking the valves will get you your 1337 K3WL explosion, but it better satisfies the 'stupid' component of your acronym than the 'simple' part. grndpndr International Hazard Posts: 508 Registered: 9-7-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood If you were working with a repeatable spereical shape all this would be relavent.Balloons are not a reliable means to measure volume or ratios by thier circumference since there not speres nor are they of a repeatable shape are they?! So it stands to reason if you dont have a consistent shape how can you calculate volume by simply measuring circumference of an inconsistent shape then assuming volume equates to a sphere which a balloon is not?Its a built in inconsistency that throws the entire premise of kilter Given those facts it seems a more reliable way to have a correct ratio of gases is by filling the balloon with a known mixture.The only really precise method I can think of to verify volume of an irregular shape is by displacement or actually measuring the amount of gas used in filling the balloon. Finally, Theres really no need to be so thin skinned/hostile towards those with differeing opinions.If the acronym KISS upset you that would be your cross to bear.It wasnt addressed at you it was simply a generalization.If I can arrive at the same or better results by a simpler method Ill do so.If that offends your scientific sensibilities thats unfortunate for you.You are more than welcome to think of me as a caveman.Not unflattering at all given our ancestor's adaptability,capacity to survive in an infinetly hostile enviroment. Back to the topic at hand as Im sure many of you know small disposable tanks of oxygen and mapp gas (methyacetylene/propadiene,C4H10) are available at any hardware store worth the name and it might be a respectable substitute for acetylene although what the effect of the excess hydrogen would have I leave to the more learned among you. Whether or not std propane torch fittings work on the 02 or MAPP gas I dont know but I would doubt thier compatibility w/propane torch's causing extra$ outlays.Still in the vien of fun
as a rifle target using tracers from .22lr to a high power mil caliber or even improvised homemade tracers for which there are volumes of info it still sounds FUN despite....

SB15
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 Quote: If you were working with a repeatable spereical [sic] shape all this would be relavent [sic].Balloons are not a reliable means to measure volume or ratios by thier [sic] circumference since there not speres [sic] nor are they of a repeatable shape are they?!

I happen to have some spherical party balloons lying around, so I inflated a few to a consistent diameter and measured the diameter along the x and y axis of each.

#1
X axis: 18.4cm
Y axis: 20.1cm
= 8.5% variation
#2
X axis: 19.7cm
Y axis: 22.3cm
= 11.7% variation
#3
X axis: 19.0cm
Y axis: 20.5cm
= 7.4% variation

In my world, that's called 'pretty flipping consistent and spherical'.

 Quote: So it stands to reason if you dont [sic] have a consistent shape how can you calculate volume by simply measuring circumference of an inconsistent shape then [sic] assuming volume equates to a sphere which a balloon is not?Its a built in inconsistency that throws the entire premise of [sic] kilter

Technically, the specific shape doesn't actually matter. As long as the volume scales as a known function of the radius, this type of methodology can be applied.

Balloons are sufficiently close to spherical to make the approximation of volume scaling as a cubic function of radius. Regardless of whether or not they are truly spheres, diameter measurements will be much more accurate than guessing at valve positions.

 Quote: Given those facts it seems a more reliable way to have a correct ratio of gases is by filling the balloon with a known mixture.

A known mixture? How can you possibly *know* the mixture is stoichiometric based only on observing flame characteristics? Aside from the obvious observation difficulties, the changes in ambient pressure at the torch tip when the flame is extinguished and a pressure vessel is being filled can have a very significant effect on the composition of the gas flow. This is uncertainty you can't control.

 Quote: The only really precise method I can think of to verify volume of an irregular shape is by displacement or actually measuring the amount of gas used in filling the balloon.

The 'proper' method involves trapping each gas at a known pressure in a vessel of measured volume, then using a valve to fill the balloon with each volume. Slightly adapted versions of Boyle's law and the Ideal Gas Law can be used to design and optimize this system, but as the explanation would be well over the heads of most 'experimenters' on this forum, I won't get into it unless someone specifically asks.

 Quote: Finally, Theres [sic] really no need to be so thin skinned/hostile towards those with differeing [sic] opinions.If the acronym KISS upset you that would be your cross to bear.It wasnt [sic] addressed at you it was simply a generalization.If I can arrive at the same or better results by a simpler method Ill do so.If that offends your scientific sensibilities thats [sic] unfortunate for you.You are more than welcome to think of me as a caveman.Not unflattering at all given our ancestor's adaptability,capacity to survive in an infinetly [sic] hostile enviroment [sic].

I'm not upset about anything. I'm simply stating that discussions of such poorly controlled and inconsistent methods as marking the valves on a torch have no place on a scientific forum.

 Quote: Back to the topic at hand as Im [sic] sure many of you know small disposable tanks of oxygen and mapp gas (methyacetylene [sic]/propadiene,C4H10) are available at any hardware store worth the name and it might be a respectable substitute for acetylene although what the effect of the excess hydrogen would have I leave to the more learned among you.

Methyl acetylene and propadiene (C<sub>3</sub>H<sub>4</sub>, they are structural isomers) MAPP blends are no longer readily available in most areas of the world. They have been replaced by a similar product which is comprised of ~99.5% propylene (C<sub>3</sub>H<sub>6</sub>. Not quite as energetic, but more so than propane.

 Quote: Whether or not std propane torch fittings work on the 02 or MAPP gas I dont know but I would doubt thier compatibility w/propane torch's causing extra $outlays. They are indeed compatible with propane torches and fittings. Propylene/oxygen would make a rather respectable balloon filling mixture, but it would be far less likely to DDT than either acetylene or hydrogen. [Edited on 1-29-2011 by SB15] The WiZard is In International Hazard Posts: 1617 Registered: 3-4-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood "I though he was amply forewarned." Safety&Hygiene News October 1988. I got the call right after I got back from church. Ed had gone in early on a Sunday morning to work on developing a hydrogen sensor and got blown to smithereens. He was working with a bootleg mixture of six percent hydrogen and twenty percent oxygen. It's highly detonable, and an explosion was fairly predictable. "It blew him to bits," recalls the safety manager for a division of an aerospace company. He was working on developing an improved way to detect criticality problems in a nuclear reactor. He asked me a few weeks before how to handle the gas safely. He should've been behind sandbag barricades, operating the valves remotely. I sent him a letter, and pointed out that the mixture he wanted to use was illegal to transport across state lines. He was a knowing participant. I though he was amply forewarned. He was a graduate engineer. He knew the haz- ards. According to his notes, he was metering hydrogen and oxygen into a very small test chamber and getting variations he couldn't account for. He needed to narrow the cause of the fluctuations, and he said he needed to get a calibrated gas source. So he bootlegged it in. The explosion cost about$125,000 in damages. It made a shambles of the shop. A
couple of cars were destroyed. And it caused some damage across the street. It
was pretty spectacular.

He had two grown children and a youngster. He was in his late 30's or early 40's. It
was interesting: he was sort of an aging flower child - this was back in the early
70's - and at his funeral they scattered rose petals over the water by Santa Barbara.
There were not enough of his ashes left.

His family ended up getting about a \$1.2 million settlement. They sued the gas
supplier. It never even got to court.

djh
---
The average women would rather have
beauty than brains because the average
man can see better than he can think.

Anon.

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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » Useing a balloon for a oxyhydrogen explosive? Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues