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quicksilver
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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 07:35


From what I have read, micro-sized "repeater stations" have allowed encoded signals to be transmitted virtually anywhere; ending in a fiber optic cable (instead of wire). The terminus being a final energy multiplier, shielded from EM pulse and all except the last few meters would be recoverable.So that EBW detonators can be placed pretty much anywhere. And the EBW caps themselves have been "self grounding" so that even if placed in a position where an EM pulse were attempted it would be shielded. This was the "off-planet" concept of mining that NASA considered in space where EM pulse from Sun Spots presented a serious challenge. It has been tested and the "consumables" were the cap and ending of a fiber optic cable which cost would be negligible compared to the results. That's about as advanced as I have read about. But it couldn't have even been conceived 50years back. When "self grounding" caps first emerged as a common item in electric caps.



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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 07:59


I may not be fully knowlegdable, but I'm wise enough to know I won't be reinventing the wheel. My point was not so much that someday I'll come up with something completely novel, but that for now I'll steer completely clear of speculation and stick with learning the basics. I found the Davis and Naoum books on Amazon, I'm just waiting for a little money (will be a week or so) before I can buy them. I look forward to sinking my teeth into something so meaty. I just hope I won't need a thorough knowledge of chemistry/physics before they make any sense to me.

[Edited on 2-10-2011 by prometheus1970]




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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 08:17


Quote:
I found the Davis and Naoum books on Amazon, I'm just waiting for a little money (will be a week or so) before I can buy them.

You can download Davis from the SciMad library and print it, so why buy it?

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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 08:37


Quote: Originally posted by prometheus1970  
I'll steer completely clear of speculation and stick with learning the basics. I found the Davis and Naoum books on Amazon, I'm just waiting for a little money (will be a week or so) before I can buy them.

[Edited on 2-10-2011 by prometheus1970]



I can fairly promise you that the basic aspects of subject matter we have discussed in the "Energetic Materials" section of this Forum are encapsulated in those two texts. AND included are very explicitly and well tested means of preparation of those materials!

Were you to refer to them constantly after reading them fully it's my strongest belief that you would have the same level of basic knowledge as most any who answer a query here.

Not only do I applaud your open mind to this but I believe that in terms of learning to understand basic chemical equations; you'll have little trouble.* Because within those texts the examples were not written to fully explain the dynamics but to offer alternatives & reference (in general). The addition of nitrogen for instance can be clearly understood by comparative example. In practical matters, you'll see why this symbolism made sense.

The safety discussion are a matter of common sense and I doubt (you particularly) have a reason to be told that initiator stimulus are the same as safety agenda. It's mostly heat, static, impact, friction, etc which actually has a similar bearing when you think about it. They all have similar properties in relationship to the molecule.

On another topic; I really DO believe that one day these texts will not be readily available. And just like someone stores ski's or fishing equipment away for a time you may develop other interests, but you would always HAVE available the classical directions to this hobby.
The only thing I wish that Davis had done was mention more of the storage stability of various materials as HMTD and Hg Fulminate need cold to remain in good condition while higher temps bring about degeneration. There is SOME materiel but you need to hunt (or really read the text completely & have great retention ability). Even ETN is mentioned (I believe in Naoum) but briefly while MHN is given more. I believe this has to do with what was economically viable at the time of writing, etc. Therefore there is an ENORMOUS amount of the nitric esters in order of economic viability.
Naoum was also translated from the original German, so I have a feeling that areas where translation isn't practical was omitted. I have a feeling he wrote more than what's there. But it's damn valuable, well tested, proven, & reliable.


* "If a man is intellectually hungry and has an open mind he will be fed well." (JDR 1955)

[Edited on 10-2-2011 by quicksilver]




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prometheus1970
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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 13:40


I may not be in a position for academic (at a university) pursuit of this subject, or or even explosives camp, but I can certainly read the available literature on it. Any other recommendations you may have book-wise would be tremendously appreciated.



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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 13:58


Skylighter has TL Davis COPAE available as a free download.

http://www.skylighter.com/offers/free-ebook.asp

Naoum is a bit harder to find, but I've seen it out there-




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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 15:15


Thanks, but I just ordered it from Amazon about 5 minutes ago. Which is probably just as well; a paper copy would be easier to read.



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[*] posted on 10-2-2011 at 23:06


Man, some of you people been smoking crack. And I bet you synthesized it yourselves too. Wizard is on a whole different level.....;)

Anyways. Prometheus, pick yourself up and walk over to Bass Pro Shop and buy Bullseye smokeless powder(yellow bottle). 0.2g DS pressed should detonate it without problem. Improvise however you like on the design. DBSP needs some confinement, but a light cardboard tube will suffice.

Bullseye isn't the only one that works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTwdg6XejpU
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[*] posted on 11-2-2011 at 07:29


Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880  
Man, some of you people been smoking crack.


My thoughts exactly. :P

This place often reminds me of that Microsoft search overload commercial. Ask a simple question and receive pages of off-topic rambling in response.




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[*] posted on 11-2-2011 at 09:23


Quote: Originally posted by prometheus1970  
Thanks, but I just ordered it from Amazon about 5 minutes ago. Which is probably just as well; a paper copy would be easier to read.



I have a fair library of text and I find it's easier to read and refer also.

However somethings ARE really expensive (or rare) and the only way to get them on any sort of a budget is via a PDF. I would suggest FEDEROFF & URBANSKI in PDF form as the collection (we are talking about encyclopedias now) are just too expensive unless you know how to collect rare books.

Name: "Encyclopedia of Explosives & Related Items"
That's generally considered the source for an enormous level of gov't research (from about the 1960's. From there on out is much tougher to get research in sully bound format). I have gotten hard copy but it too real work to find them at anything approaching affordable prices. (some people want over $1400 per set). Referred to as PATR*. It used to be available via Gov't printing. NOW you get a seriously unique response when you inquire to buy them.... (if you get my drift).
That's Federoff. -= Urbanski is another encyclopedic group.
Originally I believe that the GPO charged $3 per unit for Federoff & now they sell for around $250 via eBay & Amazon (private sales).


But when you have a chance PM me; I might be able to help at least with PDF's of texts which are unaffordable. The two you're considering getting are the old classic research from about 1920-40 & are the general basis for MUCH future material. Some of the ORIGINAL Munroe material on Shaped Charge dynamics are available also if you know where to look.

* Picatinny Arsenal Technical Research


[Edited on 11-2-2011 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 11-2-2011 at 12:04


Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
Ensign Bickford (the fuse mfg) experimented in the 1950's with a PBE (plastic bonded explos.) cap. It was actually ALL explosive. It was less than an inch wide a cylinder of hard explosive plastic that screwed on to the end of a fuse with "barbed" threads (in a 6mm hole in one end of the cylinder) that would keep it in place. It's concept was for touching off dynamite that was fixed into a hard borehole but did not detonate. It would be totally water resistant and when in place could withstand direct water contact. It could also be designed with a molded pair of leads for an internal bridge-wire, making it able to be used with almost any manner of initiation. The actual formula is no longer under patent and is available to those who have a fair background in polymer chemistry. It's not a lightweight thing to mfg.
The idea eventually was bought and now Sandia Corp is doing research in a similar area: that the cap as a whole is the detonator - in & of itself.


It seems this would fit well with the DBSP/energetic
composite thread?Exact design criteria Ill leave to the imagination.But an electric squib/det made up of a sensitive powerful energetic combined with a small amt of plasticized DBSP just to hold the ETN etc in suspension with a few grams of sensitized DBSPplastic with a lesser amount of ETN incorporated molded around the electric squib/ det in the shape of a traditional blasting cap. Like a caseless ammunition waterproof w/o a need for a casing.maybe a laquer of some type to ensure no foriegn materials could contaminate the cap?

@ Bert. Thanks for the free link for downloading COPAE.I too prefer a hard copy but my finances are suffering as is!!

@ QS. In the same vien give a man a fish hell eat that day.Teach a man to fish and hell be fed a lifetime.(Or words to that effect)

[Edited on 11-2-2011 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 11-2-2011 by grndpndr]
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[*] posted on 12-2-2011 at 08:07


Energetic polymers are a whole world unto themselves. Some are castable and are as solid as many common plastics in everyday usage. Glycidyl nitrate (GLYN & polyGLYN), Glycidyl azide polymer and the momomers of several like energetics are referred to in such acronyms as; NIMMO (Nitrratomethyl-3-methl oxetane & polyNIMMO, & the azidomethyl-3-mthyl oxetane (AMMO & polyAMMO), BAMO (& polyBAMO) - there is whole world of them now that are generally used for the internals of disposable castable unit like explosive bolts, etc.
Polymer science is a whole other issue. but there are compositions of a polymer and a standard material like HMX that have been used with much less investment. Polyamide resin has the "flexibility" to work with a large group of standard energetic materials for the same concept.
(See J. Akhavan for a great deal of documentation on this subject. The material from the Royal Society of Chemistry is now too difficult to easily obtain but much of the original work was theirs, I believe.) TTBoMK this is where the modern energetic material research is going. I have seen some material on azidomethyl-3-mthyl oxetane & it's not lightweight in that if you really didn't have a polymer chemistry background as well a fairly well equipped lab it would not be a walk in the park. Synthesis on a plant level would be a very serious investment. One can easily see how a cap made entirely from such a materiel would be a very interesting design.....

Of commercial energetics I believe that CL20 is one of the most expensive to produce but the PBX are certainly damn close in cost.
You can easily find some patents but really do NOT expect to run a lab via what's published for patents on PBX's as the "trade secret" agenda makes (what I've seen so far) fairly unreproducible. These are generally a thousand dollars per Kg on a contract basis; they are seriously expensive.





[Edited on 12-2-2011 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 4-4-2011 at 20:14


so then i take it that using a.p. is definilately out of the question for primer use lol
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[*] posted on 4-4-2011 at 20:16


that is only if one wishes to blow his hand and is weapon to pieces lol
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[*] posted on 4-4-2011 at 20:20


i find that ammonium nitrate 50%with charcoal powder makes a very cheap but effective black powder if gun powder were ever banned nationally
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[*] posted on 4-4-2011 at 20:55


I imagine that using ammonium nitrate as your oxidizer would make a terrible choice for gunpowder due to the hydroscopy of NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub>. Why not just use KNO<sub>3</sub>, S, C? It has worked for centuries.



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[*] posted on 5-4-2011 at 03:56


while reading the other day concerning commercial SP/DBSP and specifically softening it with a solvent then adding ETN as I had proposed and I assume other esters the ETN will "Blossom", were the exact word used. Meaning the ETN crystals would migrate to the surface of the SP
upon the solvent drying.My apologies for not recording the source but I assure you it wasnt fringe literature.IIRC it was a patent - other reliable source.:(

This is the first I recall hearing of the phenomena I hope I havent bored you all with old news or news thats difficult to verify.I will do my best to try to recall the source of the material.


Like some others here state of the art for me would be 1920s tech at best but a search of the forum will reveal an awful lot of excellent material concerning cap design,reinforced caps as well a plethora of within reach safe-effective primarys and suitable base charges.
A garage chemist/fabricator has his work cut out simply fabricating an electronic/fused composite cap thats as reliable and effective as its older counterparts and done SAFELY!! most here arent trying to'reinvent' the wheel
simply design a safe and effective one.

[Edited on 5-4-2011 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 5-4-2011 by grndpndr]
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[*] posted on 5-4-2011 at 12:22


I personally haven't heard of ETN being used commercially (I would be pretty interested in the source, if you find it), however be that as it may....
The most easily measured characteristic property of an explosive is the velocity at which the front propagates into the explosive. The front of a detonation wave initiated at one end of a lg dia stick of explosive is found to approach a nearly plane shape & a constant velocity of propagation Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that a limiting velocity exists & that is in the limit the chemical reaction takes place in a steady propagation zone in the explosive. A mathematically traceable problem related to physical reality in this limit is that of plane steady detonation. (Fickett & Davis)
That is generally why the ideal detonation is a train with a base explosive of much high VoD (via chemical and density) is placed at the ending of the train; contacting (via wave) the collective mass of explosive.
RDX / RETN will always (at density) meet a higher wave potential than a simple detonator developed from a simple primary. We see “compound detonators” have replaced simple primaries at most every employment level.
Flow in a reactive medium however has a hydrodynamic element to it that is extremely interesting but generally the concept of a fluid detonator has not been approachable for a variety of reasons.
The best designs are not always the simplest in the majority of cases. The first fuse-cap / single composition designs very rarely achieved much over 4k msp. Thus the concept of "over-drive" (which has a debate in itself) was not achieved until much later designs making hydrodynamic elements & their commensurate phenomena unknown for most of the last century.




[Edited on 5-4-2011 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 5-4-2011 at 16:44


The way I read it QS it was not a commercial preperation but experimental one where the ETN that had been incorporated into the NC mass with the sovent with adequate milling. The solvent evaporating. The etn crystals eventually migrated to the surface of the HE.
Spoken ofb by vthe poster as if the ETN had 'bloomed'(:(specific descriptor) or risen to the surface where it could be plainly seen.My apologys if I misunderstood
i will do my best to find the source!
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[*] posted on 6-4-2011 at 06:01


No biggy; I had done a lot of work finding material (commercial / public) on ETN - always curious.




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[*] posted on 6-4-2011 at 10:22


From what I read Erythritol is a natural product with natural variables and naturally variable extraction proportions. Probably it's a fine explosive, BUT would it be suitable for warlike purposes if it were only an infrequently available plant crop.
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[*] posted on 6-4-2011 at 14:45


To the best of my knowledge it's (Erythritol) both...... I believe there is a standard method of processing that does not depend on total organic sourcing. That's why price dropped from what it had been at time of discovery of nitrated material. I actually have followed a commercial diabetic sugar substitute that utilized it named "TRUVIA". Plant get's their Erythritol at roughly $1.05 / lb @ several hundred pound level. Initially, it (ETN) was too costly to make any real impact in commercial mediums, thus it was put on the shelf from the popular Nov. 20th 1928 patent forward. Today...it may be a different story but there are so many alternative polyols and that level of sensitivity has placed it too far to the "primary" side of things (IMO) to make it viable commercially.
NOTE: "Truvia" is not a pure sourcing of Erythritol & would need to be purified, etc. Approx 5-10% adulterants (unk. product ingredients). Some sugar alternative sites have dropped Erythritol to the $3-4 mark per lb.pure (USP level).
Erythritol Trivia....Using Erythritol as a "sugar-subsitute" is actually GOOD for teeth as it can result in much less of an acidic condition within the flora of the mouth which would normally result in tooth decay. Using Erythritol would very likely result in substantially LESS tooth decay, etc.
Only opinion but it is the only sugar substitute that is really palatable & genuinely tastes LIKE sucrose. I am NOT sure if it would bake well in a yeast-combination (bread) bakery usage however.

[Edited on 6-4-2011 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 6-4-2011 at 15:35


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
I imagine that using ammonium nitrate as your oxidizer would make a terrible choice for gunpowder due to the hydroscopy of NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub>. Why not just use KNO<sub>3</sub>, S, C? It has worked for centuries.


That wouldnt be your sole problem.Abit of hygroscopity could be dealt with by using nitrated paper cartridges circa
mid 18th cent;.The problem would arise from trying to fire equvalaent amts plain BP- AN/Charcoal ammonpulver,(never mind that which contained some 10% nitraromatic,) in a weapon not designed to contain Ammonpulver pressures that would amt to a death wish. Realise also some mixtures of ammonpulver are very nearly the pressure EQIVALENT of modern DBSP!.In effect using ammonpulover in nearly any BP firarm modern/antique is an invitation to disaster and possible maiming- death. w/O a MODERN load manual FOR AMMONPULVER you may be making a bomb with a modern bolt action firearm let alone a ML.

[Edited on 6-4-2011 by grndpndr]
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[*] posted on 7-4-2011 at 15:00


Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
To the best of my knowledge it's (Erythritol) both...... I believe there is a standard method of processing that does not depend on total organic sourcing. That's why price dropped from what it had been at time of discovery of nitrated material. I actually have followed a commercial diabetic sugar substitute that utilized it named "TRUVIA". Plant get's their Erythritol at roughly $1.05 / lb @ several hundred pound level. Initially, it (ETN) was too costly to make any real impact in commercial mediums, thus it was put on the shelf from the popular Nov. 20th 1928 patent forward. Today...it may be a different story but there are so many alternative polyols and that level of sensitivity has placed it too far to the "primary" side of things (IMO) to make it viable commercially.
NOTE: "Truvia" is not a pure sourcing of Erythritol & would need to be purified, etc. Approx 5-10% adulterants (unk. product ingredients). Some sugar alternative sites have dropped Erythritol to the $3-4 mark per lb.pure (USP level).
Erythritol Trivia....Using Erythritol as a "sugar-subsitute" is actually GOOD for teeth as it can result in much less of an acidic condition within the flora of the mouth which would normally result in tooth decay. Using Erythritol would very likely result in substantially LESS tooth decay, etc.
Only opinion but it is the only sugar substitute that is really palatable & genuinely tastes LIKE sucrose. I am NOT sure if it would bake well in a yeast-combination (bread) bakery usage however.

[Edited on 6-4-2011 by quicksilver]


I believe that your right...., Erythritol is a sugar alcohol that bakes very diff than regular sugar. I believe that is has to be baked at a much lower temp to maintain in the food being cooked.

Nitrated sugars are quite good energy producers for sure...
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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 17:50


My wife is diabetic as well and enjoys erythritol almost as much as the forbidden sugar though neither of us have tried to make cookies/ bake with it.
Still its not a product that can be bought locally Im aware of
although this is a very sparsely populated area.Better baking via erythritol!LOL:D
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