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Author: Subject: ETN(X) with NHN Plastic
wessonsmith
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cool.gif posted on 10-2-2020 at 12:02
ETN(X) with NHN Plastic


Please watch the video for the details. I will be doing an update to the cardboard detonator. I have made it, so heating is no longer required.

I would like to point out that in the production of this plastic, I am using "wetted" energetics. This has two advantages. It dramatically reduces the sensitivity of the energetics used, and it allows the NHN to more evenly be distributed throughout the composition, creating a very uniform and dense plastic.

https://youtu.be/UqEaiZKVg2c

[Edited on 11-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
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MineMan
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[*] posted on 10-2-2020 at 22:37


Really fascinating. Beautiful color. Wesson, it’s too bad you weren’t active 5 years ago or more. This forum was a hoot then.

Too bad it can’t be initiated by a weaker cap. I bet just NHN would do it?
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 11-2-2020 at 04:30


Just read the comments on the vid.

Different solvents will give different particle size when crashing ETN in water. Have you tried something along those lines for your plastic ?
Thanks for the food for though !




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 11-2-2020 at 05:17


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Really fascinating. Beautiful color. Wesson, it’s too bad you weren’t active 5 years ago or more. This forum was a hoot then.

Too bad it can’t be initiated by a weaker cap. I bet just NHN would do it?


The insensitive nature of the plastic is by design. Since creating #8 power detonators is easy for me, I prefer energetics that is difficult to initiate, much safer. NHN only wouldn't allow for dense plastic, since the average particle size of NHN is 13 µm.

It does seem that this board has died off a bit.
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 11-2-2020 at 05:35



Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Just read the comments on the vid.

Different solvents will give different particle size when crashing ETN in water. Have you tried something along those lines for your plastic ?
Thanks for the food for though !


I have tried different solvents and different methods such as recrystallizing from alcohol only. None of the methods produces small particles as easily and in the quantities I want, as NHN does. Since I can very easily produce NHN, it's my goto energetic for small particle size. The steel cutting test shows that it is some very powerful plastic. The best part is it is very malleable and dense.

Have you been able to reliably produce 13µm ETN in quantity? I am aware that PETN and RDX can be readily made into small particle sizes. I have read papers where they use ETN in compositions, as compared to PETN, and talk of the favorable density difference of the PETN compositions due to the smaller particle size.
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 11-2-2020 at 06:24


Nice work! As you make your #8 detonators yourself, can you show what one of your detonators does on the witness plate?
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[*] posted on 11-2-2020 at 08:04


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Nice work! As you make your #8 detonators yourself, can you show what one of your detonators does on the witness plate?


Here is 900mg of plastic at work.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/sK3tnlC0hIWX/

Here is the #8 witness plate test.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/ENn7wI82UTsM/

FYI there is a 4mm gap from the bottom of the base charge, melt-cast ETN, in the detonator to the physical bottom of the detonator due to the fact I am using hot glue as the physical base for the detonator. This gap is why there isn't any damage from the detonator on the witness plate.


[Edited on 11-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 12-2-2020 at 04:18


Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  


Have you been able to reliably produce 13µm ETN in quantity? I am aware that PETN and RDX can be readily made into small particle sizes. I have read papers where they use ETN in compositions, as compared to PETN, and talk of the favorable density difference of the PETN compositions due to the smaller particle size.


Reliably… no. But after reading many times that acetone is too good of a solvent I needed to understand what that meant.
The product was very fine and fluffy. Very far from the sugar-like most people aim for.
Since acetone and methanol wont give the same particle size and that you can also have an influence on that with temperature I thought you might have tried something along those lines.
What do you use to neutralize the occluded acid ? It seemed to me that too had an influence on particle size.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 12-2-2020 at 07:15


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Reliably… no. But after reading many times that acetone is too good of a solvent I needed to understand what that meant. The product was very fine and fluffy. Very far from the sugar-like most people aim for.

Since acetone and methanol wont give the same particle size and that you can also have an influence on that with temperature I thought you might have tried something along those lines. What do you use to neutralize the occluded acid ? It seemed to me that too had an influence on particle size.


In my experience, the best results for small particle size ETN is to recrystallize directly from ethanol. I use enough ethanol to dissolve the ETN at a temperature of around 40°C, and then place the beaker into a salted ice bath with a temperature of around -15°C. Once the ETN has crashed out into the ethanol, and the temperature has dropped to around 5°C, I quickly vacuum filter it.

This produced 40% of the ETN below 37µm, how much below, not sure. NHN produces a superiorly dense and malleable plastic over my small particle size ETN efforts. The power of plastic using NHN as the small particle size is remarkable, as evidenced by the steel cutting test below.

My neutralization process of the crudely neutralized ETN is to dissolve it in ethanol at 55°C and use Ammonium Carbonate to neutralize any remaining acid. I then vacuum filter and crash the filtered solution into a large bucket of water and crushed ice. This produces ETN that is mainly light and fluffy. It's from this twice recrystallized ETN that I preform the direct from ethanol recrystallization that I mentioned earlier.

**** Here are two more examples of the awesome power of the plastic. 4.76mm and 6.38mm cold-rolled steel
https://youtu.be/dYtzxnA5rOM

Moment of truth.
27085360-1557-46A2-AABA-B76E25036E9D.jpeg - 442kB

[Edited on 12-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 13-2-2020 at 22:46


Great work man. like always!
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[*] posted on 20-2-2020 at 09:11


i would advise you to ram a bit of aluminium foil into the bottom of the tube, 4mm is quite a standoff really. or just put the tube on a piece of tape, whatever taste you fancy. just some aluminium foil wrapped around bottom of the tube should work too

i recall seeing TACN, the copper salt, even despite it being very well hydrated blowing a very nice hole in what seemed to be 3mm mild steel, very clean hole. maybe TACN should be considered with ETN? maybe gelled with a bit of acetone to see if the brisance suffers from a bit of solvent left in there. i believe both ETN and TACN are quite sensitive to shock, so it shouldnt be too tricky to set off, by chance i have an image of the possible calculated critical diameter of TACN by the youtuber (whos channel is now demolished), but thats TACN on its own.
https://gyazo.com/8e0dc2c81fd76174b72b171ba37d36be

my idea with TACN and ETN is that the density of TACN could maybe be increased, or the compounds would fit in well with each other and boost each other, TACN i believe is a slight bit OB negative contrary to ETN




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[*] posted on 20-2-2020 at 12:09


Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Please watch the video for the details.


Please get your shit together. Videos are one of the worst ways to list details. The content of videos are not indexed, meaning it wont show up on any forum search. And it's hard to get the whole picture without transcribing the content.





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[*] posted on 20-2-2020 at 12:47


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Please watch the video for the details.


Please get your shit together. Videos are one of the worst ways to list details. The content of videos are not indexed, meaning it wont show up on any forum search. And it's hard to get the whole picture without transcribing the content.



I occasionally take down the videos for my safety. Specifically what would you like info on?
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 20-2-2020 at 12:59


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
i would advise you to ram a bit of aluminium foil into the bottom of the tube, 4mm is quite a standoff really. or just put the tube on a piece of tape, whatever taste you fancy. just some aluminium foil wrapped around bottom of the tube should work too

i recall seeing TACN, the copper salt, even despite it being very well hydrated blowing a very nice hole in what seemed to be 3mm mild steel, very clean hole. maybe TACN should be considered with ETN? maybe gelled with a bit of acetone to see if the brisance suffers from a bit of solvent left in there. i believe both ETN and TACN are quite sensitive to shock, so it shouldnt be too tricky to set off, by chance i have an image of the possible calculated critical diameter of TACN by the youtuber (whos channel is now demolished), but thats TACN on its own.
https://gyazo.com/8e0dc2c81fd76174b72b171ba37d36be

my idea with TACN and ETN is that the density of TACN could maybe be increased, or the compounds would fit in well with each other and boost each other, TACN i believe is a slight bit OB negative contrary to ETN


The reason for the hot-glue method is that I use melt-cast ETN as my secondary. So during the heating process to melt the powdered ETN, the aluminum foil method doesn't always reliably hold in the melted ETN. Since the detonator is pressed into the plastic, the 4mm standoff is irrelevant. The detonation wave blasts out in all directions. The plastic I use is insensitive to 400mg of hand-pressed ETN. For reliable detonation, I need the melt-cast.
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Fulmen
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[*] posted on 20-2-2020 at 13:47


Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Specifically what would you like info on?

Just what the hell you're working on. In plain text so it's accessible for the future. Videos are great for documenting dynamic effects, but IMHO this forum should be more than a channel for youtube commentary.




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[*] posted on 20-2-2020 at 15:57


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Specifically what would you like info on?

Just what the hell you're working on. In plain text so it's accessible for the future. Videos are great for documenting dynamic effects, but IMHO this forum should be more than a channel for youtube commentary.


1) Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN) - Dextrinated

How-to video- step by step process
https://youtu.be/rPxdDSUGxo4

2) Cardboard #8 power detonator based on NHN as the primary

How-to video
https://youtu.be/6P4yiN_A-o4

Power test
https://youtu.be/BzCQxxl_dw0
etn-nhn det tube.png - 27kB

3) Thermobaric (enhanced blast) plastic

*ETN 55.00%
Al(3μm/) 12.00%
Mg/Al(44μm/325mesh) 18.00%
Soy Lecithin(liquid) 0.30%
HTPB Resin 11.70%
Isodecyl Pelargonate Plasticizer 0.74%
Modified MDI Isocyanate Curative 1.84%
CAO-5 Antioxidant 0.44%

* If you don't use the positive OB% of ETN then you will need to adjust the formula as follows: 45% PETN or RDX and 10% Ammonium Perchlorate.

Thermobaric / NHN comparison video
https://youtu.be/aF3s5UIgMdY

4) Plastic based on ETN/NHN/Lithium Grease

67% ETN average particle size 220 µm
18% NHN average particle size 13 µm
15% Lithium Grease (Super Tech General Purpose Lithium Grease)

Power test video
https://youtu.be/srsTohWdwB8
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[*] posted on 20-2-2020 at 22:23


Urea stabilized crystalline ETN unmixed with anything has a shelf life of 4 or 5 years in outdoor storage in the semitropical climate, less in warmer areas, and less in mixed compositions.

ETN lacks the inherent stability of PETN and is less inherently stable than nitroglycerine,
comparing better with nitrostarch or nitrocellulose in terms of stability, but ETN is more stable than nitromannite.

Maybe a stabilizer of dicyandiamide or betaine would improve storage stability
for methanol crystallized ETN.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12623&...

Yeah the forum has gradually died off some, very much because gradually several of the old grandpa type mentors like me that would contribute here have reached their "end of mission" in this world and continued participation here has been made difficult for their no longer having a pulse and respiration. RIP my old friends now departed.
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 21-2-2020 at 05:33


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Urea stabilized crystalline ETN unmixed with anything has a shelf life of 4 or 5 years in outdoor storage in the semitropical climate, less in warmer areas, and less in mixed compositions.

ETN lacks the inherent stability of PETN and is less inherently stable than nitroglycerine,
comparing better with nitrostarch or nitrocellulose in terms of stability, but ETN is more stable than nitromannite.

Maybe a stabilizer of dicyandiamide or betaine would improve storage stability
for methanol crystallized ETN.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12623&...

Yeah the forum has gradually died off some, very much because gradually several of the old grandpa type mentors like me that would contribute here have reached their "end of mission" in this world and continued participation here has been made difficult for their no longer having a pulse and respiration. RIP my old friends now departed.


FYI, Urea stabilized ETN will destroy plastic based on HTPB. To get every last bit of acid from my ETN, I dissolve crudely neutralized ETN in 55°C ethanol and add Ammonium Carbonate until the test strip shows neutral.
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[*] posted on 21-2-2020 at 09:11


Much, much better, don't you think? Now anybody can figure out the gist of your work in seconds.



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[*] posted on 22-2-2020 at 04:40


@wessonsmith You know that to neutralize initial product is good. Stabilizer can be included as trace ingredient material, a stabilizing deliberate impurity addition to supplement neutralizing. Neutralizing provides a good short term stability but combining neutralizing with trace ingredient stabilizer to supplement neutralizing is done to improve more greatly the long term storage stability.
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 22-2-2020 at 05:39


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
@wessonsmith You know that to neutralize initial product is good. Stabilizer can be included as trace ingredient material, a stabilizing deliberate impurity addition to supplement neutralizing. Neutralizing provides a good short term stability but combining neutralizing with trace ingredient stabilizer to supplement neutralizing is done to improve more greatly the long term storage stability.


Even small amounts of Urea in HTPB causes damage. I have never had any issues with my purified ETN. I recently sent off a detonator I made in 2016 , went off without any issue.
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[*] posted on 22-2-2020 at 06:41


The problem with energetics is that one failure will cost you a limb. Or two. The way you hold the 8# in your video will cost you your whole left hand. Fine if you have a spare hand, but I haven't
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[*] posted on 22-2-2020 at 11:07


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
The problem with energetics is that one failure will cost you a limb. Or two. The way you hold the 8# in your video will cost you your whole left hand. Fine if you have a spare hand, but I haven't


I appreciate your concern. What you mention is the very reason why I use
NHN. Please also remember that I am using a soft wooden dowel and it's being pressed into a waxed paper cardboard tube. NHN is 80x less sensitive than Lead Azide.


etn-nhn det tube.png - 27kB

[Edited on 22-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
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[*] posted on 22-2-2020 at 15:45


Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
@wessonsmith You know that to neutralize initial product is good. Stabilizer can be included as trace ingredient material, a stabilizing deliberate impurity addition to supplement neutralizing. Neutralizing provides a good short term stability but combining neutralizing with trace ingredient stabilizer to supplement neutralizing is done to improve more greatly the long term storage stability.


Even small amounts of Urea in HTPB causes damage. I have never had any issues with my purified ETN. I recently sent off a detonator I made in 2016 , went off without any issue.


What you say about observed issue of incompatability of Urea and HTPB is not something I dispute or argue.

And your not having any stability issue with only neutralization of ETN is based upon a short term observation not within the scope of making valid conclusions about long term stability.

Do not argue please with someone who 100% knows certain from long term many years observation of pure sample that purified ETN has many years stability but NOT what is very good long term stability.

I gave as examples nitrostarch and nitrocellulose for how stability of ETN is generally comparable with 2 other materials. I gave 2 potential alternative stabilizers that may be useful and not suffer same issues as urea. So there is no argument. But if you do not understand only neutralized ETN stability is good but limited to a very few years, then in a few more years give it time and you will, I positively can guarantee that assertion. :)
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[*] posted on 24-2-2020 at 06:16


If you recrystalize years old ETN it will regain some stability.
Unfortunately the same cant be done for humans.

The pinkish color we dread in ETN cannot be brought back in humans.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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