Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2  
Author: Subject: ETN(X) with NHN Plastic
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 24-2-2020 at 06:27


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
If you recrystalize years old ETN it will regain some stability.
Unfortunately the same cant be done for humans.

The pinkish color we dread in ETN cannot be brought back in humans.

:)

Eurenco claims their X-Dough, based on PETN, has a shelf life of 20 years. I have to imagine that ETN based x-dough, which is the Lithium Grease plastic I just made, is at least half of that.
http://www.eurenco.com/content/explosives/demolition-breachi...

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 24-2-2020 at 11:09


Imagination is a wonderful thing when it overestimates reality by 300% ( or more ) :P

After 1 beer she was looking prettier than before, and after 2 more beers I was smitten by her unparalleled beauty. But the next day I realized all that beauty I saw the night before may have been just my imagination playing tricks on me or maybe it was the 3 beers.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fulmen
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1332
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bored

[*] posted on 24-2-2020 at 11:45


Honestly, that kind of "boundless optimism" is a good way to kill your own credibility. You haven't posted anything about this lithium plastic here (as I've said before I don't consider videos suitable for presenting claims, arguments or data), so I have no idea what you're on about. But either way you can't make assumptions on stability based on entirely different combinations of explosives and binders.



We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 24-2-2020 at 12:10


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Honestly, that kind of "boundless optimism" is a good way to kill your own credibility. You haven't posted anything about this lithium plastic here (as I've said before I don't consider videos suitable for presenting claims, arguments or data), so I have no idea what you're on about. But either way you can't make assumptions on stability based on entirely different combinations of explosives and binders.


It's the last item on my, what's wessonsmith working on-page.

I appreciate responses by if I my give YOU some advice, please dial down the rudeness a bit. Thanks.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Herr Haber
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 736
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-2-2020 at 04:29


I wouldnt trust any salesman telling me their product has a 20 years shelf life ;)
Eurenco's mini booster is based on their PETN dough and only has a 5 years shelf life.

I cant say I've seen a lot of commercial explosives but I was under the impression their shelf lives were quite short.

Anyway, got some Li grease yesterday :D




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fulmen
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1332
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bored

[*] posted on 25-2-2020 at 04:57


Actually they list it to >5years, so there isn't any real conflict between these claims. And what's the problem with a claimed 20y shelf life? PETN should have virtually infinite life under good conditions, and the same goes for most binders used in commercial plastics.

What would be the benefit of lithium grease compared to PIB/oil?




We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 25-2-2020 at 06:30


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
I wouldnt trust any salesman telling me their product has a 20 years shelf life ;)
Eurenco's mini booster is based on their PETN dough and only has a 5 years shelf life.

I cant say I've seen a lot of commercial explosives but I was under the impression their shelf lives were quite short.

Anyway, got some Li grease yesterday:D


Looking forward to seeing the end product:)

I found this study on the "THERMAL DECOMPOSITION AND SHELF-LIFE OF PETN AND PBX BASED ON PETN USING THERMAL METHODS"

http://vjs.ac.vn/index.php/jst/article/download/11154/103810...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 25-2-2020 at 06:39


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Actually they list it to >5years, so there isn't any real conflict between these claims. And what's the problem with a claimed 20y shelf life? PETN should have virtually infinite life under good conditions, and the same goes for most binders used in commercial plastics.

What would be the benefit of lithium grease compared to PIB/oil?


The lithium Grease from Walmart is $2.82 for 14Oz.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-General-Purpose-Lithiu...

It is very easy to use and makes for a dense, 1.58 g/cm³ in the hand, plastic as powerful as that based on the vastly more expensive and harder to acquire HTPB. PIB/oil is a laborious process, extracting the PIB from tape.

Here is a side by side comparison of HTPB and Lithium grease plastic 5.2 g. They are both equally as powerful. You see more debris with the HTPB because I used a small block of wood. The LG side used a long piece of wood, doesn't fragment like the small block. The damage to the steel witness plates is identical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IirWeXyo77E



[Edited on 25-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 25-2-2020 at 07:06


ETN and PETN are entirely different animals in regards to stability, just as nitrostarch and nitroglycerine are different in stability even though very closely related in chemical composition. pure PETN is inherently chemically stable as is pure nitroglycerine, while pure nitrostarch and pure ETN are inherently chemically unstable. This is not a trivial difference. It is night and day. Which is exactly why stabilizers are used to improve the storage life and storage safety for materials and compositions containing them that do have a limited if indefinite storage life, that certainly is affected by favorable or unfavorable storage conditions.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fulmen
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1332
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bored

[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 11:03


A more relevant question would be how it compares to plain oil or grease. I like lithium grease as a grease, but I'm not sure I'd want that mess with my explosives. But I can imagine it's more water resistant with lithium grease. How would pure lithium soap work? It might produce a decent compressed explosive?

My first batch of "plastic" was precipitated RDX and chainsaw oil. For non-field use it works just fine, but it's greasier and has a mediocre density. The PIB extraction is a bit of a mess, but totally worth it in my opinion. Just let time and solvents do the work.




We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 11:33


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
A more relevant question would be how it compares to plain oil or grease. I like lithium grease as a grease, but I'm not sure I'd want that mess with my explosives. But I can imagine it's more water resistant with lithium grease. How would pure lithium soap work? It might produce a decent compressed explosive?

My first batch of "plastic" was precipitated RDX and chainsaw oil. For non-field use it works just fine, but it's greasier and has a mediocre density. The PIB extraction is a bit of a mess, but totally worth it in my opinion. Just let time and solvents do the work.


Lithium Grease plastic has been around since WW2. After all Lithium Grease is nothing more than Lithium stearate & Mineral Oil. Without the thickener of Lithium Sterate you are correct, it wouldn't be very dense or useable in the field.

British PE4 comprises RDX 88.0%, Paraffin Oil 9.6%, Lithium Stearate 2.4%), wherein lithium stearate is a thickening agent for the paraffin oil.
Swedish Sprängdeg m/46, first released in 1946 is PETN based Lithium grease plastic. Not sure why you would be concerned about a binder that has been in use for well of 50 years.

It's VERY cheap and easy to mix into your energetics. Takes me all of 10 minutes using my blender to produce beautiful, POWERFUL, and dense, 1.58 g/cm³ in the hand, plastic:)

IMG_1284.jpg - 2.1MB

[Edited on 26-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 12:20


If you are using the high velocity high shear mixing of a blender to incorporate a mixture of explosives and binder and reduce the particle size of the HE to a plastic, this is an inherently dangerous process that should be done remotely. This could be done without issue a hundred times and thought to be no significant danger until the exception occurs that atomizes the blender and operator.

What was I thinking ? is a rhetorical question that makes the *precise* point for the next Darwin Award.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fulmen
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1332
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bored

[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 12:38


I must admit I detest metallic soaps on general grounds. They're inherently hard and messy to work with. So I have simply overlooked them for this use. But you're right, it's probably one of the better DIY binders all things considered. I still consider PIB superior but that's a matter of taste.





We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 13:07


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
If you are using the high velocity high shear mixing of a blender to incorporate a mixture of explosives and binder and reduce the particle size of the HE to a plastic, this is an inherently dangerous process that should be done remotely. This could be done without issue a hundred times and thought to be no significant danger until the exception occurs that atomizes the blender and operator.

What was I thinking ? is a rhetorical question that makes the *precise* point for the next Darwin Award.


I am not using a high-velocity, high shear blender, that would be STUPID, and also completely unnecessary.

I am using a regular mixer for bread on the LOWEST speed to start. The mixing blade doesn't touch the sides or bottom of the mixing bowl and I only add 1/5 of energetics at a time until they are thoroughly mixed. Once mixed, a 400mg powdered ETN detonator won't set it off. I thoroughly test ALL my explosive processes to make sure they are safe. My method for producing plastic, using a SLOW mixer, is the same process that the big guys use.

How many on this board use the old rolling pin method? Yeah, that's safe, pressing energetics between a hard rolling pin and a hard work surface, with inconsistent pressure, and the danger of fatigue, what could go wrong:)

[Edited on 26-2-2020 by wessonsmith]

[Edited on 26-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 13:12


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
I must admit I detest metallic soaps on general grounds. They're inherently hard and messy to work with. So I have simply overlooked them for this use. But you're right, it's probably one of the better DIY binders all things considered. I still consider PIB superior but that's a matter of taste.



That is why I use the bread mixer as described in my other post. 10 min is all it takes to get the plastic you have seen in my videos and pictures. It's amazing stuff, very malleable, even at low temperature, and stores well. Oh yeah, it's VERY INEXPENSIVE:)

I should point out however that the mixer only provides a consistent mixture not a dense mixture. The density of my plastic comes from using two different particle sizes of energetics. 13 µm, which is the average particle size of NHN, and 220 µm, which is the average particle size of ETN. I also use an inexpensive vacuum chamber to remove all of the excess air bubbles that are added when mixing. It dramatically increases the density as opposed to plastic that doesn’t use a vacuum chamber.

Most backyard chemists making plastic don’t incorporate the two particle size method and their plastic density suffers for it.


[Edited on 26-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 19:19


The absolute CLUELESSNESS of SOME (mostly naive and youthful) "regular Einsteins" is something that never ceases to surprise me about what is a SCIENCE discussion board....

Yet here is on PUBLIC DISPLAY the supercilious nature of a "younger generation" of KNOW-IT-ALLS that SHOWS a lack of "situational awareness" that is an EXISTENTIAL THREAT not only to themselves, but by EXTENSION to the entirety of a world it may well not even be a "future" theirs to contribute any "progress" derived from their "brilliant" insight and depth and genius because they are just "too brilliant" to LISTEN to known GOOD INFORMATION that could have preserved their own LIFE in said world.

What wonderful things those regular Einsteins might have eventually accomplished and shared had they lived longer, is what will too often be the eventual "admiration" of those surviving when reflecting on the lives so sadly, foolishly and needlessly lost.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 19:22


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
The absolute CLUELESSNESS of SOME (mostly naive and youthful) "regular Einsteins" is something that never ceases to surprise me about what is a SCIENCE discussion board....

Yet here is on PUBLIC DISPLAY the supercilious nature of a "younger generation" of KNOW-IT-ALLS that SHOWS a lack of "situational awareness" that is an EXISTENTIAL THREAT not only to themselves, but by EXTENSION to the entirety of a world it may well not even be a "future" theirs to contribute any "progress" derived from their "brilliant" insight and depth and genius because they are just "too brilliant" to LISTEN to known GOOD INFORMATION that could have preserved their own LIFE in said world.

What wonderful things those regular Einsteins might have eventually accomplished and shared had they lived longer, is what will too often be the eventual "admiration" of those surviving when reflecting on the lives so sadly, foolishly and needlessly lost.


Wow, that's a lot to get off your chest:)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 26-2-2020 at 20:19


For years there has been a certain mysterious "element" you don't find listed on the periodic table, the "element" called STUPIDIUM, and it has unusual properties that may be known only once "in passing" to an exclusive club as the last thing they discover in this life.

Quote:
Takes me all of 10 minutes using my blender to produce beautiful, POWERFUL, and dense, 1.58 g/cm³ in the hand, plastic


Yeah riiiiight, using a "blender" that is not really a BLENDER (Osterizer) but is a Kitchen Maid "bread mixer" ....

Wait...Don't tell me let me guess...says somewhere right on the instructions or label it is highly recommended for convenient mixing of explosives but only if the operator stands there looking at it very closely and does the task very carefully of course.

It's the personal touch that does the trick....

I see, now why didn't I "get it"? :P

[Edited on 2/27/2020 by Rosco Bodine]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
B(a)P
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 218
Registered: 29-9-2019
Member Is Offline

Mood: Confined

[*] posted on 27-2-2020 at 03:54


Rather than ridicule the procedure should we not seek clarification/question/chalenge? Isn't that more in line with the scientific process?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 27-2-2020 at 04:14


ETN is generally about like nitroglycerine in a solid form ....

So do the math. It's like the most diabolical math exam ever,
where the grade that is earned may come as a misadventure
that is permanently consequential.

And unlike a lot else posted here, that is no *bullshit*.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-2-2020 at 06:04


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
ETN is generally about like nitroglycerine in a solid form ....

So do the math. It's like the most diabolical math exam ever,
where the grade that is earned may come as a misadventure
that is permanently consequential.

And unlike a lot else posted here, that is no *bullshit*.


I now see what your problem with my method is, you have some INCORRECT DATA! Let me clear that up for you. Let’s do the MATH.

Nitroglycerin in liquid form has a sensitivity to impact of 1.8 kgf*cm or 0.176 J. ETN in powdered form has a sensitivity to impact of 33.4 kgf*cm or 3.28 J. So a quick calculation tells us that ETN is 18.6x less sensitive than Nitroglycerin. For reference PETN in powdered form has a sensitivity to impact of 40 kgf*cm or 3.93 J, which makes it 22x less sensitive than Nitroglycerin.

Once the energetic is mixed into the Lithium Grease, a detonator with 400mg of pressed powdered ETN won't set it off. It's this reason why my paper detonators use Melt-cast ETN, which is considerably more powerful than pressed powdered ETN. I need the extra power to actually set off my plastic. Most plastic explosives need a #8 power detonator, which is defined as 450mg of PETN, as reference.

What I think you were doing was confusing ETN in the MOLTEN state which IS AS SENSITIVE as Nitroglyercin. FYI, care to take a guess at how they make Dynamite? Yep, that's right, they put that explosive that is 19x MORE sensitive than ETN into mixer filled with an inert binder and wait for it, MIX IT TOGETHER!

Here are some video clips from the old to the new, of industry making Dynamite and Plastic explosive.

https://vimeo.com/72734082#t=40s
https://youtu.be/RZYFc7IeTBA?t=362


Ref:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0737065970821608...

https://scinapse.io/papers/2665393328
Table (1) under Figures & Tables

[Edited on 27-2-2020 by wessonsmith]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
Banned





Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 27-2-2020 at 07:48


There is still No Way I would choose as part of a "hobby pursuit" to manually operate a mixer standing beside it observing it and especially not using a blender on a plastic composite containing ETN or PETN, but would do that remotely and use solid addition funnel screws also operated remotely, and then if Murphy's Law chooses today to apply, it won't be any huge consequential issue on that operation. Even in a commercial production of such compositions, extruders and mixers are operated remotely and there is a reason for that precaution. I have never manually done any milling operations on any energetic materials or mixtures and I am never going to start. Even solvent aided or melt systems I have limited to under 4 gram samples and then using no glass or metal handling the sample.

Rolling the dice on manually formulating, mixing these compositions is not a gambit I am going to be making, not even with RDX that is "safer" still in terms of the risk. In some kind of war environment being pressed to the ghetto of lower valuation of life and limb it would be a different scenario, but as a risk taking not necessary for a peace time hobby, I'll pass on this manual mixer operation.

Oh and BTW I had already become familiar with dynamite and its inventor and dynmaite manufacture in my studies 60 years ago, along with noting the loss of life in the mans immediate family of his next of kin killed in the family business by being blown to atoms.



[Edited on 2/27/2020 by Rosco Bodine]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Tsjerk
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1996
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mood

[*] posted on 27-2-2020 at 08:08


Wessonsmith apperantly already went down from remote controlling melting his primary explosives to using blenders and then back up to using bread mixing machines... My God, you use bread quantity amounts of primary explosives? In a mechanical machine?

Do you have neighbors?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-2-2020 at 08:15


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
There is still No Way I would choose as part of a "hobby pursuit" to manually operate a mixer standing beside it observing it and especially not using a blender on a plastic composite containing ETN or PETN, but would do that remotely and use solid addition funnel screws also operated remotely, and then if Murphy's Law chooses today to apply, it won't be any huge consequential issue on that operation. Even in a commercial production of such compositions, extruders and mixers are operated remotely and there is a reason for that precaution. I have never manually done any milling operations on any energetic materials or mixtures and I am never going to start. Even solvent aided or melt systems I have limited to under 4 gram samples and then using no glass or metal handling the sample.

Rolling the dice on manually formulating, mixing these compositions is not a gambit I am going to be making, not even with RDX that is "safer" still in terms of the risk. In some kind of war environment being pressed to the ghetto of lower valuation of life and limb it would be a different scenario, but as a risk taking not necessary for a peace time hobby, I'll pass on this manual mixer operation.

Oh and BTW I had already become familiar with dynamite and its inventor and dynmaite manufacture in my studies 60 years ago, along with noting the loss of life in the mans immediate family of his next of kin killed in the family business by being blown to atoms.



[Edited on 2/27/2020 by Rosco Bodine]


First, Nobel's brother died from a nitroglycerin accident, a bottle full of nitro fell on the floor beside him. He didn't die from a Dynamite manufacture process.

You are entitled to have your fears and OPINIONS about things, that's perfectly fine. What I object to is your hostel and combative approach to making your point. For the first few interactions with me on this subject, you didn't provide empirical evidence or make an OBJECTIVE argument. You instead hurled incoherent rambling insults, and made UNSUBSTAINATED and INCORRECT assertions about OBJECTIVE FACTS! ETN is nowhere near as sensitive to Nitroglycerin, yet you stated it as FACT! Then you used that incorrect fact to insult and demean.

I think you need to spend some time reflecting on why you are so angry and determined to demean others on a public board when instead you should be sharing IDEAS and concerns in an objective and sincere way.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-2-2020 at 08:42


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Wessonsmith apperantly already went down from remote controlling melting his primary explosives to using blenders and then back up to using bread mixing machines... My God, you use bread quantity amounts of primary explosives? In a mechanical machine?

Do you have neighbors?


I think you guys need to get a grip on the reality of what I am doing. I am SLOWLY mixing a relatively safe to handle energetic(s) 1/5 at a time, into an INERT binder, and when mixed into the said binder, a detonator with 400mg of pressed powdered ETN won't set off. The mixing blade doesn't touch the side or bottom of the bowl. The bottom of the bowl has been pre-coated with the inert Lithium Grease binder futher reducing the possibility of friction.

Please refrain from hyperbole and personal biases. The sensitivity issue you bring up is the reason why after spending months on this board I decided to make NHN. An energetic that is 80x less sensitive to friction than Lead Azide. Yet on this very board, many members think that HMTD, TATP, Lead Azide, etc are somehow acceptable primaries to make and use.

What I have found in the relatively short time I have spent on this board is that there a VERY few members who do their OWN research. Instead, there seems to be a lot of regurgitation of misinformation at the best to flat out FALSE facts, at worst.

When I first came to this board I got a lot of grief for suggesting that people switch to NHN. I was meet with a lot of hostility because I factually pointed out how dangerous and sensitive primaries like Lead Azide were, I guess I was bucking the status quo and it wasn't liked.

As I stated in my ealier post, I have no problem with being called out or CORRECTED as long as it is respectful and is based on FACT! Passing off biases and personal beliefs as a basis for an attack isn't helpful to the discourse of the community.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2  

  Go To Top