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Syn the Sizer
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Don't get me wrong, it is sad when stuff like this happens, nobody ever wants to see anybody get hurt. However its not a new fact that things like
butane and propane are flammable and explosive. But i guess I live in Canada, even before legalization neighbours didn't report you for extractions
outside so we didn't need to hide inside. I should look at the bigger picture before making statements such as "you can't fix stupid"
Edit:
This is also why us as a world society need to advocate for the world legalization of Marijuana. So many people are made criminals and injure
themselves just for a plant that grows. Ethanol as we all know is produced by a micro-organism while destroying sugar, the ethanol is essentially the
urine and feces and the CO2 is the flatulence, who wants some jenkem.
[Edited on 11-5-2020 by Syn the Sizer]
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earpain
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Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  | | Quote: Originally posted by chemistry007 | | First time i tryed to separate the CBD and THC with distillation...big bad smell, like cat pee...then i solved the smell and go further, but got
red-violet stuff which looks strange. I did TLC on it and saw different spot...so not pure.. |
Cannabinoids are highly air sensitive, and oxidize to aromatics if allows to sit in air, or worse yet, are heated in air. You need to keep them
under nitrogen and handle them carefully, just like most reactive organics.
If you plan to do commercial work, you should learn the basics before spending a lot of money to make a mess. Maybe work somewhere that knows how to
do this first, or take some classes on how to do it. Just like any other pharmaceutical extraction, you must do it correctly to make a safe product,
if intended for human consumption.
Good companies use CO2 or USP grade ethanol to do the extractions, as they are completely safe for human use. Using butane or propane might be
acceptable if the material is reprocessed later correctly, but the equipment to do that safely is key, people have blown up their house or garage
doing it wrong. That is why CO2 is ideal, much safer, and very easy to scale with commercial equipment. |
In response to this and some other statements in this thread:
I believe there is a new meta-industry piggy-backing off of the THC extraction industry. They are usually engineers selling industrial equipment to
successful producers who do not have a fundamental grasp of chemistry. Search around with the right keywords, and you will find demo's of giant
machines that anyone here knows how to put together for a few $1000 at most. Yet these companies charge up to .5M. Dead serious.
I think the shorter chained alkanes are great solvents for extracting flower. But if it boils BELLOW room temperature, how do you suppose to recycle
it?
Yes, butane boils off on it's own. But so does hexane and heptane in a FLASK under REDUCED pressure. There's your best of both worlds
Alcohol:
Why? I read on some super obscure weed-science site one argument for:
THCA and CBDA, with their carboxylic acid groups, are actually bit more polar.
arguments against:
So cured flower is 15% water on average. Sure you can dry your ethanol or isopropanol to the bone, but alcohols are MISCIBLE with water. So you will
pull not only alcohol soluble polars, you will pull WATER SOLUBLE POLARS.
Hence the -40C, 2 minute shake recipes.
Here is why trace amounts of hydrocarbons and the like are not an issue:
Extracts are dead. Distillate is what sells. Retail at dispenseries in my state: $100 - $115 per ml
By law GC/MS must be included.
The BP difference between these hydrocarbons and the theoretical BP of the cannabinoid active oils is IMMENSE.
I DO advocate for a two solvent winterization however:
Pull the flower with Hexane or Diethyl Ether or which ever.
Filter for REAL. I mean fine sintered glass under vacuum.
Distill and recover the original Non-Polar, you're left with crude #1.
Now since there is NO WATER, sure why not? Pick an alcohol, I agree iso > ethanol > methanol. Honestly I kind of like acetone for this part
too.
Make sure it's VERY dry. Dissolve crude. Filter through sintered glass. Cool down to sub-zero, and quickly run it through the sintered glass again.
Double winterized crude. Can actually be vaped.
OR
Perfect starting point for MOLECULAR DISTILLATION
[Edited on 16-6-2020 by earpain]
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Syn the Sizer
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Great explanation.
I do agree that something like butane is very hard to recycle with a boiling point of -1oC but the way I see it for home extraction for
personal use it is cheap and OTC. As for industry, I don't know how the manufacturers of BHO and PHO recycle it or if they recycle it. I do agree
though that using a slightly longer chain alkane would allow for recycling.
Yes, distillate is the big product now, partly because of purity and it is fairly easy to produce. But personally if I can get a g of shatter for 25$
or a g of distillate for 120$ i'll be buying 4g of shatter and 20$ in munchies.
Yes 2 step winterization, I just mentioned winterization of the non-polar solvent, I was typeing faster than I was thinking of course you want to get
rid of the non-polar and dissolve it in a polar solvent so you don't blow you place up. I have heard of people using acetone but have never seen it
done or used it myself.
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earpain
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| Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer | Great explanation.
I do agree that something like butane is very hard to recycle with a boiling point of -1oC but the way I see it for home extraction for
personal use it is cheap and OTC. As for industry, I don't know how the manufacturers of BHO and PHO recycle it or if they recycle it. I do agree
though that using a slightly longer chain alkane would allow for recycling.
Yes, distillate is the big product now, partly because of purity and it is fairly easy to produce. But personally if I can get a g of shatter for 25$
or a g of distillate for 120$ i'll be buying 4g of shatter and 20$ in munchies.
Yes 2 step winterization, I just mentioned winterization of the non-polar solvent, I was typeing faster than I was thinking of course you want to get
rid of the non-polar and dissolve it in a polar solvent so you don't blow you place up. I have heard of people using acetone but have never seen it
done or used it myself. |
Mmm hmm. Indeed. I found one, non-academic experimental report of a comparison of 10 or so solvents. The website had pictures of the color of the
solvent after extracting, and a picture of the crude after stripping. Definitely no Chroma/Spectra/NMR, etc.
Clearly the big dogs are rigorously researching these matters precisely in this way, and THAT data is proprietary, and anyone with access to it is
tied up by piles of Non Disclosure Agreements and Non-Competes.
This is why I did my own comparison of a few solvents. Also, with no spectra, or chroma, or the like.
Acetone came up because it is the lowest BP solvent available as mostly pure in any hardware store. Also it has similar solvent properties to
alcohol, but a bit more selective.
Incidentally, acetone is unavoidable for cleaning up all of the GUNK afterwards from glassware and filters and all that. So it's probably not a good
choice for the first extraction.
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draculic acid69
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Apparently shellite is the best solvent for initial extraction followed by a water wash to remove sugars and other water soluble stuff.if what I was
told is true doing this gives a clean burning product
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draculic acid69
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| Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer | Great explanation.
I do agree that something like butane is very hard to recycle with a boiling point of -1oC but the way I see it for home extraction for
personal use it is cheap and OTC. As for industry, I don't know how the manufacturers of BHO and PHO recycle it or if they recycle it. I do agree
though that using a slightly longer chain alkane would allow for recycling.
Yes, distillate is the big product now, partly because of purity and it is fairly easy to produce. But personally if I can get a g of shatter for 25$
or a g of distillate for 120$ i'll be buying 4g of shatter and 20$ in munchies.
Yes 2 step winterization, I just mentioned winterization of the non-polar solvent, I was typeing faster than I was thinking of course you want to get
rid of the non-polar and dissolve it in a polar solvent so you don't blow you place up. I have heard of people using acetone but have never seen it
done or used it myself. |
The equipment for doing this properly is pretty simple and clever but expensive and whoever said earlier that there's big business around simple
equipment being sold for massive amounts to ppl with no chem/engineering understanding is correct.a simple 3pot butane extraction/recycling setup that
would cost a hundred bucks to make is being sold for like$10000 to pot growers who want to do the bho supercritical rxn but don't understand it.this
setup I'm talking about recycles the butane over and over and is quite a smart idea.its just expensive
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Syn the Sizer
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Anything for a buck, and like you said many people just don't know what they are doing. It is easy to find a business to setup an apparatus for you
even if they charge exponentially more.
Edit:
Shellite, no thanks, I will stick to my butane and isopropanol extractions. Though very interesting, do you have and literature on it?
[Edited on 24-8-2020 by Syn the Sizer]
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S.C. Wack
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Where extraction is allowed, it's still regulated. I don't know anywhere that pentane extraction is permitted. The guy whose fingerprints are most
over closed loop extraction with butane in a SS sanitary spool, hose, valves, and vacuum system, before the first legalization of it, also took it
upon himself to inform senators and fire marshals involved in the first extraction codes that the world's foremost authority says only closed loop
systems using CO2, propane, or butane qualify as good manufacturing practice. Butane good, pentane bad. Water or glycerol might be allowed as well. Or
heavily taxed and regulated (in theory) alcohol.
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morganbw
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Unless you are doing this out of sight and for your self, this shit is looked at pretty close.
That may be the high price of some of the stuff. They may be selling you a method that is accepted.
I do have a nephew who makes his own stuff from wax he buys but for over all use by everybody, there needs to be a few guidelines.
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draculic acid69
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| Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer | Anything for a buck, and like you said many people just don't know what they are doing. It is easy to find a business to setup an apparatus for you
even if they charge exponentially more.
Edit:
Shellite, no thanks, I will stick to my butane and isopropanol extractions. Though very interesting, do you have and literature on it?
[Edited on 24-8-2020 by Syn the Sizer] |
Just a first hand experience from someone who does it regularly.
They're pretty good at this sort of thing.
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S.C. Wack
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No one writing the codes knows anything about chemistry or chemical engineering, no one advising the code writers knows anything about chemistry or
chemical engineering. The codes will be written by know-nothings, enforced by know-nothings, and will be permanent.
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morganbw
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| Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack |
No one writing the codes knows anything about chemistry or chemical engineering, no one advising the code writers knows anything about chemistry or
chemical engineering. The codes will be written by know-nothings, enforced by know-nothings, and will be permanent. |
While I agree with what you say, I need to point out that we used different words. I mentioned guideline, you mentioned codes. Not the same sir.
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S.C. Wack
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Well then what does guidelines mean?
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OldNubbins
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Codes are generally top level requirements; standards are abridgments are unenforceable but are used to develop policies and procedures that are
universal. Guidelines are bottom level, task-oriented and usually tailored to a specific organization. They are all different levels of requirements
that are intended to improve understanding and common agreeable expectations.
That's just my take - same thing, different levels of specificity and detail.
[Edited on 8-26-2020 by OldNubbins]
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morganbw
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This is the best I can do. Make your own decisions.
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+the+difference+betwe...
Also, I am done with this thread.
[Edited on 8/26/2020 by morganbw]
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S.C. Wack
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Discussion on THC extraction will have to be carried on in threads pretending to be about something else then, since we can't do it here...
...you think there should be "guidelines" but when asked what these are you prefer to be that way...
| Quote: Originally posted by morganbw | | I do have a nephew who makes his own stuff from wax he buys but for over all use by everybody, there needs to be a few guidelines.
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totally does not mean you think there should be regulations, it means
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earpain
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In my state, way up north east, after a drawn out freeze due to Vitamin E acetate hysteria, the industry has re-emerged, in full swing. I think the
new -laws- are pretty fair and clever, considering the complexity of the whole industry, as it is just only beginning to emerge in my state.
All cannabis products, at the time of purchase, must include a GC/MS analysis. So far only two labs in the state are approved for providing such a
service. They are tightly watched to assure they they are impartial and have no affiliation.
As for solvents used for extracts, distillate and the like. Unlike California, no particular solvent is outlawed. But if it is present beyond a
threshhold, it's gotta be on that GC/MS.
The industry embraces chemophobia. Thus, the big dogs claim to only use CO2. That really makes for a pricey barrier of entry. I wonder how the good
people would react if I made product and had it sold by dispensaries, proudly stating that it was extracted and winterized with diethyl ether, and
butanol?
My understanding is that California outlawed the use of hydrocarbons for preparing extracts. My first reaction was face-in-hands, 'srsly?' since with
their laws even if I were to strip every detectable trace of solvent out of my product, and was using a hydrocarbon that was very easy to run in a
looped batch, still no.
I suppose it turns out the purpose of the law was to curtail BHO 'cooks' , DIYing their own shatter with butane, as accidents were occuring with
increasing frequency. Maybe this relates to the forestfires?
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S.C. Wack
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AFAIK butane restrictions are on the general public, not licensed extractors. The laws there show what I was saying:
(a) Chemical extractions using CO2 or a volatile solvent shall be conducted in a
professional closed loop extraction system. The system shall be commercially
manufactured and bear a permanently affixed and visible serial number. The system
shall be certified by a California-licensed engineer that the system was commercially
manufactured, safe for its intended use, and built to codes of recognized and generally
accepted good engineering practices, such as:
(1) The American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME);
(2) American National Standards Institute (ANSI);
(3) Underwriters Laboratories (UL); or
(4) The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM).
The certification document must contain the signature and stamp of a Californialicensed
professional engineer and the serial number of the extraction unit being
certified.
(b) Professional closed loop systems, other equipment used, the extraction
operation, and facilities must be approved for use by the local fire code official and meet
any required fire, safety, and building code requirements specified in:
(1) National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) standards;
(2) International Building Code (IBC);
(3) International Fire Code (IFC); and
(4) Other applicable standards including all applicable fire, safety, and building
codes related to the processing, handling and storage of the applicable solvent or gas.
Would you believe an engineer who makes closed loop systems was involved in the creation of this?
Of course all law is written by special interest groups, and it clearly wasn't the Bayers of the world who are taking advantage of this situation.
Since when did states have this level of control over the pharmaceutical industry? Why would a Pfizer have to buy these systems if they wanted to
extract?
Of course they're famous for being ignorant and having a certain mindset producing regulation of chemicals to levels below the limit of detection, but
the testing aspect seems to benefit a certain few people, much like production licenses in certain states. So many tests are required but so few labs
allowed to operate; many of them, and the extractors, having a monopoly or nearly so.
Many of the people licensed in the industry just happen to have law enforcement or politics experience. Perhaps the rules aren't blatantly written to
benefit individuals rather than the public, but they often seem designed to work out that way.
[Edited on 29-8-2020 by S.C. Wack]
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