| Pages:
1
2 |
CouchHatter
Hazard to Others
Posts: 146
Registered: 28-10-2017
Location: yes
Member Is Offline
|
|
digging a hole with explosives
I wonder if anybody has used an explosive they made for excavation of rocks or trees. I'm reading through Urbanski's chemistry and technology of
explosives, with the goal in mind of finding an ideal compound to controlledly detonate yard obstructions. I'm digging a vertical hole and expect to
encounter many rocks. I would also like to hear of other 'required reading' material, because the only thing that comes to my mind comcerning
practical explosives is the anarchist cookbook which is obviously better for blowing yourself up than not. I've looked around this section of the
forum and not found anything like this, but maybe I'm not looking for the right search terms.
|
|
|
morganbw
National Hazard
Posts: 561
Registered: 23-11-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
In a younger life I worked construction for quite a few years. It was mostly pipeline but it also included small faced tunnels.
I have a lot of experience drilling and blasting in ditches/tunnels/and tunnel pits. Actually even some underwater blasting.
This was done with commercial explosives of several different types along with several variants of blasting caps.
Check the legality of it in your area. You might be able to do it with commercial explosives. If nothing else you may be able to hire a contractor
with the proper licensing.
I would suggest you not do this with homemade explosives.
|
|
|
B(a)P
International Hazard
Posts: 1112
Registered: 29-9-2019
Member Is Offline
Mood: Festive
|
|
I have used black powder to make fence post holes. It was done with the use of a post hole gun, which consists of a 400 mm barrel open at one end and
a small hole for a fuse at the other. The post hole gun is filled with powder then plugged will clay and pushed into the ground. It makes a hole about
0.4 m in diameter and 0.6 to 1 m deep depending on lithology.
|
|
|
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Explosives are useful but I suggest checking out how the coral was built.
https://historydaily.org/how-did-one-man-build-the-coral-cas...
|
|
|
B(a)P
International Hazard
Posts: 1112
Registered: 29-9-2019
Member Is Offline
Mood: Festive
|
|
Perpetual motion would definitely be a better option for moving earth. If only he had written down how he had achieved it........
|
|
|
MineMan
National Hazard
Posts: 996
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  | | I have used black powder to make fence post holes. It was done with the use of a post hole gun, which consists of a 400 mm barrel open at one end and
a small hole for a fuse at the other. The post hole gun is filled with powder then plugged will clay and pushed into the ground. It makes a hole about
0.4 m in diameter and 0.6 to 1 m deep depending on lithology. |
I don’t understand. How does the BP not fall, and how do you plug it with clay? In the west we would not be able to push it into the ground.
Interesting though!
|
|
|
SWIM
National Hazard
Posts: 970
Registered: 3-9-2017
Member Is Offline
|
|
There's a thread on here from last year about explosives to clear some trees.
A tree had fallen over and was resting on two others and a dangerous mess to tackle with a chainsaw.
Not having much luck finding it though. Anybody here remember that thread?
EDIT: It's titled, Most appropriate material to topple a tree.
[Edited on 19-4-2020 by SWIM]
|
|
|
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P | Perpetual motion would definitely be a better option for moving earth. If only he had written down how he had achieved it........
|
But there are videos and web pages showing real clever ways he made tripods with tree trunks and lifted those heavy stones himself.
|
|
|
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This film is about Project Sedan, a Plowshare Program test, that promoted the application of nuclear explosives to develop peaceful uses for atomic
energy, was conducted at the Nevada National Security Site on July 6, 1962. This cratering explosion, with a yield of 104 kilotons, displaced 12
million tons of earth and formed a 1,280-foot-diameter by 320-foot-deep crater in the desert floor, releasing seismic energy equivalent to 4.75 on the
Richter Scale. The purpose of the Sedan explosion was to determine if nuclear devices could be used as cratering or earth moving mechanisms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7539BL4f4E
|
|
|
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You can bust up big ones.
Non-explosive demolition agents are commercial that are an alternative to explosives and gas pressure blasting products in demolition, mining, and
quarrying. To use non-explosive demolition agents in demolition or quarrying, holes are drilled in the base rock as they would be for use with
conventional explosives. A slurry mixture of the non-explosive demolition agent and water is poured into the drill holes. Over the next few hours the
slurry expands, cracking the rock in a pattern somewhat like the cracking that would occur from conventional explosives.
Search Non-explosive demolition agents
|
|
|
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Expando is Safe, environmentally friendly, and is a non explosive rock splitting and concrete cutting solution.
EXPANDO is a cracking agent that comes in powder form, which when mixed with water expands. When poured into pre-drilled blast holes, produces an
extreme pressure of 18,000 PSI.
After a few hours the tensile strength of the rock or concrete are overcome by the cracking agent. The rock or concrete then breaks following the pre-
drilled hole pattern.
http://bhd.8ef.mwp.accessdomain.com/
|
|
|
B(a)P
International Hazard
Posts: 1112
Registered: 29-9-2019
Member Is Offline
Mood: Festive
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | | Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P | | I have used black powder to make fence post holes. It was done with the use of a post hole gun, which consists of a 400 mm barrel open at one end and
a small hole for a fuse at the other. The post hole gun is filled with powder then plugged will clay and pushed into the ground. It makes a hole about
0.4 m in diameter and 0.6 to 1 m deep depending on lithology. |
I don’t understand. How does the BP not fall, and how do you plug it with clay? In the west we would not be able to push it into the ground.
Interesting though! |
They don't work well with soils of high sand, gravel and rock content. Imagine a pipe with one end welded closed. A small tube is welded into the side
near the closed end for the fuse. The pipe is filled with black powder from the open end then when it is almost full push a piece of clay into the
open end to block it. The open (clay plugged) end of the pipe gun is pushed into the ground with the blade of a tractor.
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1693
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
From what I can tell these expanding cements are basically regular portland cement containing an excess of dead-burned CaO / MgO.
Both have a large increase in volume as they are hydrated to hydroxides. And if fired at high temperatures they becomes less reactive, allowing the
cement to set before this reaction takes place.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
CouchHatter
Hazard to Others
Posts: 146
Registered: 28-10-2017
Location: yes
Member Is Offline
|
|
Excellent and informative suggestions. From the other post about tree toppling, Vomaturge says that practical application discussions of explosives is
not allowed - I didn't know this, but I can imagine why. I don't recall anything about it in the forum rules though, is that true?
Like therapist, I came here because I expected that safety would be put first in given advice. But unlike therapist, I have no subconscious wish to
dabble with energetics if I don't need to. It sounds like there are plenty of other options available to me. Thank you all!
|
|
|
MineMan
National Hazard
Posts: 996
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I never liked the expanding grout stuff. I hear too many presentations about it during school.
Fire setting works ok.
I like my rock breaking solutions to be more energetic.
Shape charges work too.
|
|
|
Steve s
Harmless
Posts: 46
Registered: 20-2-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
I was actually talking to a chap i know that does a bit of 'blasting' about something similar to this a few years back when i was doing some work that
involved making fairly big square holes through very hard concrete footings.
I (and several others) ended up doing it the old fashioned manual way in the end but the chap in question did tell me how it could be done with
explosives. Firstly a core hole is drilled in the center then a series of smaller holes are drilled around the core hole in the shape of the desired
hole. To these holes the explosives are loaded and the holes plugged the charges are then detonated using different lengths of shock tube in order to
allow the charges to detonate one after the other in an outward spiral direction. This was for horizontal holes but i see no reason why the same
technique couldn't be used for vertical holes. However if you do have a lot of rocks and stones in there they will be traveling a some speed when they
come out, unless of course they are vaporized by the explosion in which case you will have more of a crater than a hole.
Personally i'd hire a nice powerful two man operated post hole borer 
|
|
|
wg48temp9
National Hazard
Posts: 761
Registered: 30-12-2018
Location: not so United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
|
|
I found an old article on a black powder post hole gun at https://www.farmshow.com/view_articles.php?a_id=733
It claimed to produce about a 3 ft. deep and 12 in. in dia hole. I would think the gun would be propelled to 50ft or more into the air hence the rope.
I do have some posts to put in. It would be a fun method but the holes would be near my old house and I don't want to frighten the neighbours and get
arrested. Unfortunately unlicenced explosive hole digging is not allowed in the UK LOL
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
|
|
|
Steve s
Harmless
Posts: 46
Registered: 20-2-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by wg48temp9 | I found an old article on a black powder post hole gun at https://www.farmshow.com/view_articles.php?a_id=733
It claimed to produce about a 3 ft. deep and 12 in. in dia hole. I would think the gun would be propelled to 50ft or more into the air hence the rope.
I do have some posts to put in. It would be a fun method but the holes would be near my old house and I don't want to frighten the neighbours and get
arrested. Unfortunately unlicenced explosive hole digging is not allowed in the UK LOL
|
Yes, for experimental, educational demonstration purposes.......Not for practical use 
|
|
|
MineMan
National Hazard
Posts: 996
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Looks like you have to hammer the gun 3 ft into the soil... I don’t see the purpose. I couldn’t even hammer it in 4 inches out here. Shape
charges would be better. Water jacket them.
|
|
|
Vomaturge
Hazard to Others
Posts: 285
Registered: 21-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: thermodynamic
|
|
For post holes, I'd say look for an equipment rental with one of those post pounders that mounts on a skid-steer and drives sharpened posts. Even in
rocky ground, most of them will go in intact. Takes about 60 seconds per post, and is highly effective at killing vampire dinosaurs
[Edited on 20-4-2020 by Vomaturge]
I now have a YouTube channel. So far just electronics and basic High Voltage experimentation, but I'll hopefully have some chemistry videos soon. |
|
|
MineMan
National Hazard
Posts: 996
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge | For post holes, I'd say look for an equipment rental with one of those post pounders that mounts on a skid-steer and drives sharpened posts. Even in
rocky ground, most of them will go in intact. Takes about 60 seconds per post, and is highly effective at killing vampire dinosaurs
[Edited on 20-4-2020 by Vomaturge] |
How much does a silver stake of that size cost..... way too much!
|
|
|
Pyro_cat
Hazard to Others
Posts: 243
Registered: 30-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | I never liked the expanding grout stuff. I hear too many presentations about it during school.
Fire setting works ok.
I like my rock breaking solutions to be more energetic.
Shape charges work too. |
I can imagine they wanted to push the new and "improved" rock breaking techniques and take the fun out of it.
I bet fire setting with the help of a leaf blower would work even better.
Small fire 4 logs and just the wind from the blower on idle gave me such a hot spot melted all the glass from the recycle bin into a blob real quick.
Years before as a kid I was hungry and the charcoal in the BBQ was taking forever so I used my moms hair dryer to speed it up and melted the tip.
She got really mad about that and I was like what, its fine. Did all kinds of dumber things all the time like taking things apart and not being able
to put back together but I really got in trouble for that for some reason.
|
|
|
Nitrosio
Hazard to Self
Posts: 57
Registered: 31-3-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
250g ANFO per 1m³.
|
|
|
Hey Buddy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 384
Registered: 3-11-2020
Location: Bushwhacker Country
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by CouchHatter | | I wonder if anybody has used an explosive they made for excavation of rocks or trees. I'm reading through Urbanski's chemistry and technology of
explosives, with the goal in mind of finding an ideal compound to controlledly detonate yard obstructions. I'm digging a vertical hole and expect to
encounter many rocks. I would also like to hear of other 'required reading' material, because the only thing that comes to my mind comcerning
practical explosives is the anarchist cookbook which is obviously better for blowing yourself up than not. I've looked around this section of the
forum and not found anything like this, but maybe I'm not looking for the right search terms. |
In demolition engineering, trees and rock and digging holes or excavation are dealt with as three separate operations for charge design and
application.
For timber cutting the basic formula is a relationship between (typically):
1) Type of Explosive
2) RE Factor
3) lbs (of explosive)
4) Number of targets
5) Type of Operation (Standardized formula)
Timber cutting isn't one operation but a matrix of operations limited/ depending on the scope of the project and considerations of things that should
not be destroyed.
For most normal timber cutting using high explosives the following operations are most common,
External timber cutting/ring cutting:
P=D^2/40
Abatis (folding trees over so they are still connected to stump):
P=D^2/50
Internal (bore):
P=D^2/250
D=Diameter(in) (should be determined by measure of circumference at latitude of charge)
P=Pounds (demolition is typically done by ppl that are not synthesizing their energetic materials but using standardized commercial products that are
in packaged units)
Example:
Destroy a critical latitude of 3 trees using TNT of a variety with unit packaging/division of 1lb.
1) Target: tree // timber cutting
2) No. Of targets: (3)
3) Operation: External Cutting Charge // P=D^2/40
4) D=20 // tree diameter measures 20 inches, as measured by Circumference of tree at elevation of charge.
D= Circumference/3.1416 //
5) Charge RE Factor: 1 // TNT has a Relative Explosive factor of 1 //
6) unit package weight= 1 // standard trinitrotolune commercial increment-packaging of 1 lb. //
Solve:
P=D^2/40 //operation formula, external timber cutting charge//
P=20^2/40 //tree diameter at target is 20 inches//
P=400/40
P=10 //the unit is pounds, the selected energetic is TNT//
P=10/RE // TNT has RE factor of 1 //
10lbs TNT=10/1
10lbs of TNT is required to destroy the latitude of a tree with a diameter of 20" at the site of the charge.
10lbs TNT/1 = Pax //increment of lbs of explosive weight per unit of commercial packaging.//
10 pax (commercial packages) of explosive TNT are required to destroy the latitude of a tree with a diameter of 20 inches at the location of charge.
10 pax(3)= total pax // there are three trees in this example.//
Twenty inch diameter latitudes of three separate trees may be destroyed by thirty pounds of TNT total, by creating three separate charges of TNT
weighing ten pounds each, and applying each of the charges on the three trees, at the intended latitudes to be destroyed.
The external timber cutting charge is also known as a ring charge because it is emplaced as a ring around the tree as uniformly as reasonable in field
conditions and is typically secured in place using duck tape or gaffers tape. The tree bark itself at the site of the ring charge is typically wrapped
with tape also to provide a water resistant and non organic surface for charge to be secured against.
Stumps of 18" height or less have a simplified ratio
Dead stumps: 1lb of TNT (or RE equivalent) per foot of diameter.
Live stumps: 2lbs TNT Equivalent/ft of diameter
Tap Rooted Stumps: live stump removal ratio but with circumferential boring into dirt between lateral shallow roots as close to stump circumference as
possible.
Explosive boring into earth and stone requires a different operation with its own factors and requires using shaped charges, or manual boring and
tamping such as when cratering earth or doing road destruction or expedient pond. I can go into that at a later time but it's beyond my bed time now.
Unfortunately it would be inappropriate to cite the source of these standards but it's basic stuff that can assist in safe net explosive weight
calculations for anyone that is practicing explosive engineering in the field.
Please understand that explosive engineering is a dynamic art and carries with it inherent risk. These formulas and explanations do not account for
factors such as explosive pressures and standards for safe standoff distances and procedures. If you're unfamiliar with high explosive projectile
behavior it is very unpredictable and particularly tree cutting needs consideration of standoff for over pressure and reflective pressure but also
high velocity tree fragments and rock/debris within a radius of the target. Please use extreme caution with proximity to detonations and if possible
use earthen barriers when available for impact barrier of anyone in vicinity of large detonations.
I've written this from reference documents and memory but typed out on phone, and as such, this should be used only as novel reference but not relied
upon for authoritative guidance on blasting procedure and i would recommend that if you intend to do frequent large shots, to get into contact with a
person in your area that is actively professionally practicing explosive engineering for specific guidance on your blasting projects.
[Edited on 5-11-2020 by Hey Buddy]
[Edited on 5-11-2020 by Hey Buddy]
|
|
|
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
Posts: 1334
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline
Mood: cool.gif
|
|
Conclusion: TNT is weak explosive....
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
