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Author: Subject: European Sulfuric Acid Ban
Refinery
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 05:59
European Sulfuric Acid Ban


The full extent of the European Sulfuric Acid ban is described in here:

https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-46-2019-INI...

The restriction is following:

- Over 15% requires license
- Over 40% is banned

The requirements are same as prior precursors. The restriction applies to general public, or individual customers. It does not affect professional customers.

So, if it's in your interest, stockpile sulfuric acid now.
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 06:36


oh crap... not again

i stockpiled 5L of clean 98% sulfuric acid in the last few years fearing this





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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 06:40


In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.

Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk]
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 06:42
Chemical Acquisition


Experienced(even amateur) chemists can
make most of what they want regardless
of stupid, lobotomized politicians. Prohibitions
do not work - ever.

Politicians - I forgot to add neutered.


[Edited on 2020/7/14 by MadHatter]




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Refinery
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 07:14


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Glad I have such a number.


#metoo

Last time I purchased sulfuric acid, it was 96%, in 25L canister and it cost around 150 bucks.

Effectively, who they can prevent from making energetics are the low level teen cooks and other idiots who usually end up blowing their own hands. I wish there were more surgically precise means of removing them from the market.

Sulfuric acid ban is PITA because it is one of the most essential feedstock in chemistry.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Refinery]
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 07:43


For everyone without such a number: get what you can before 01-02-2021.
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 08:26


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.

Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk]

Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?




Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn

Collected compounds:

Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2

Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 08:55


I really don't know, I never ordered something from Germany that required the number. Actually I don't think I ever ordered chemicals from Germany.
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 08:57


Nice... I just some 98% sulfuric acid. By the way, what happened that they decided to start war on precursors once again? I though that situation calmed down.
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 09:10


Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?


As far as I am aware, yes. There was one instance where the supplier would deliver only against a valid business number. Germany seems to have widespread regulations on many chemicals anyways, at least with the couple of suppliers I've dealt with. Basically everything that has of any value in chemistry and reacts more vigorously than table salt, is classified as some sort of "professional use only" reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by BrainAmoeba  
Nice... I just some 98% sulfuric acid. By the way, what happened that they decided to start war on precursors once again? I though that situation calmed down.


I think the banhammer has only one direction, unless societal situation changes significantly. EU has been banning pretty much everything, including most small arms and large capacity magazines.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Refinery]
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 09:12


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.

Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk]


I believe that is the same in Canada, though this ban does not affect me I still am in the process of getting myself such a number here. Tbh we have a very small precursors list and all the Class B precursors can be bought in 1 stop at Canadian Tire.

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-conce...
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 09:31


It also mentions potassium nitrate/clorate , calcium nitrate, hexamine,aluminum powders and many others.
A lot of essential chemicals for the home chemist.
I guess we will all have to replace our car batteries too..

Governments, a never ending tighting noose.
Keep importing more people that are willing to use those against the population, thats no fucking problem , but potential precursours yeah that will help, scum. sigh..
I know leave the politics at the door but sometimes its hard to restrain.

Serious point about the electrolyte , am I no longer allowed to fill my own battery or have did the moron bureaucrats forgot we actually need that for you know real life stuff.

About stockpiling , at first that sounds reasonable but having 10's of litres of sulfuric is kinda hard to explain and will get you into trouble when caught, especially if it is considered restricted.
Also this would feel like every experiment you do is just draining hard or perhaps impossible to obtain material which is unsettling to say the least.


[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Belowzero]
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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 10:45


Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.

Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk]

Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?

The VAT-number? Of course, just register a business.
It costs around 40€ and you can do it at the local Gewerbeamt.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 01:33


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  

The VAT-number? Of course, just register a business.
It costs around 40€ and you can do it at the local Gewerbeamt.


Make it and you will get perhaps visits from the trade supervisory authority (Gewerbeaufsichtsamt) to check e.g. the storage of chemicals and more important the whole REACH-Complex is for you in force, with all the nice pitfalls, where negligence will be punished, too.

bj68
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 04:19


When I contacted the chemical safety authority, they were concerned about quantities that need reporting, and they were referred in tons. The treshold for oxidizing or corrosive materials was 5 tons if I remember correctly. Only stuff they were really interested was gas cylinders and explosives (fireworks, ammunition, etc) which have very small storage limits, unless they have designated and separate storage space.

So it is highly unlikely you will get any visit from any inspectorate unless you order IBC containers of that stuff and report it to somewhere. Just to note that business transactions are not registered in any database, companies must keep their own records for financials and inventory and if nothing happens that needs investigation, no one is going to come ask about it.

As long as the quantities are really in the hobby scale (like getting normal 0.5-1L bottles up to a 25L canister at max), I wouldn't stress such things, especially if you're not storing them in urban center apartment.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 06:40


Yes it is highly unlikely.
If you only register for the VAT number(which is rather done at the tax office, "Finanzamt"), they don't even care about what sort of business you have or not have.
That only becomes relevant for other things.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 07:15


When you apply for the Dutch number, a KvK number, they do ask what you are going to do, but only to register you in the correct catagory. It costs 50 euro, and if you just say you are self-employed in whatever profession no further questions are asked.

You can probably even say you are a contract chemist, then even when a supplier would bother checking your number they would see that profession.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 07:33


Just another stupid regulation which won't change anything for people with bad intentions but will make some problems for chemists that have no company.

I haven't read the full text - do they want to ban old types of car batteries, those which uses sulphuric acid? They need 30% or even more so it's over limits.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 08:06


why the ban though? how many incidents caused from diy bombs happened in europe?

alcohol and tobacco kill way more, but those are not "chemicals" in the eye of an idiot, put the word acid and all hell breaks loose





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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 08:19


Laws have seldom to do with realities.

The business type is only for registration purposes, but naturally any company can do any kind of business, considering they have the proper case-sensitive licenses if needed. There are a few controlled business types, like pharmaceutical, government contracts etc. where a special license may be granted and background checks are needed.

For common chemist amateur, most any business type that regards any sort of material handling, treating, preparation, testing or other manipulation warrants a plethora of plausible substances. Re-sale type business might not be a good idea, because some vendors might not want their products distributed, hence it's a good idea to mention for the record that the reagents will be used within the company and they will not be distributed to second hands.

Of course, re-sale can also bring liability issues - it is a fact that if a company sells some specialty equipment and it comes up in any criminal investigation, they tend to contact in order to at least get a statement was there any reason for suspicion, and of course they'll want all records of sale for investigating the participants. Actually, if a company sells anything that can be of interest for certain agencies, they may just show up and request all the sales information for intelligence purposes if any interesting names come up. The nuisance of this is that the law enforcement tends to be always sniffing for anything they can make case of, and storage and handling of dangerous goods is an excellent case to at least make your life a little bit more miserable, if not else, at least with a little fine for any small negligence.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 08:21


40% of all explosives used in the EU during terrorist attacks are homemade. Professionals refilling car batteries can get a permit to use >15% sulfuric acid.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 08:32


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
40% of all explosives used in the EU during terrorist attacks are homemade.


and how many attacks did we have?

i don't know what's the process to open a business in other countries, but in italy you need to pay taxes for that business every years, plus the bureaucracy makes it a lenghty process.
every years i maybe spend 200 euros in chemicals and glassware, but if i need to also pay 300 euros of taxes because i'm a registered business would be pretty annoying.
there's also the fact that pretty much amateur chemistry would be excluded for younger people, it will be like the chemistry kits you can buy now for kids, sodium carbonate and maybe tartaric acid...





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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 08:45


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
For everyone without such a number: get what you can before 01-02-2021.


Getting there... as soon as I get fired from my current job I'll have more time making a company and getting a registry number.

There's still one thing I do not know though. Will this be enough for purchases from other countries ?

More specifically: UK requires a licences that doesnt exist in my country. Can I, if I'm legit here buy from them ?
I guess I'll just have to ask the question to a UK supplier someday.




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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 08:53


If you don't have any turnover you obviously don't pay taxes. I don't know about Italian tax office, but I had to fill out a 0 (online) for turnover four times before getting a letter I only had to tell them when I actually had a turnover.

If you boil down 15% sulfuric, you get to 90% at some point. Potassium nitrate still only needs an intended use to be declared and 12% H2O2 can easily be frozen. Chlorates and perchlorates can be made with some effort. So young chemists can still join the game, although being able to buy 96% acid and 30% peroxide was nice indeed.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 08:55


Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  

alcohol and tobacco kill way more, but those are not "chemicals" in the eye of an idiot, put the word acid and all hell breaks loose


Well, if you put acid into my eyes of course all hell's gonna break loose !

The first round of bans was right after Breivik. I'm not convinced this second one is linked to terror. The first country I remember mentioning it was the UK because of people punishing "honor crimes" with acid.

Anyway, the old DHMO joke still has a few days ahead.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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