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Author: Subject: European Sulfuric Acid Ban
Refinery
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 09:17


There's that exact issue. It's us civilized people who can behave and we could have otc everything and it'll still be peace on ground.

But then comes all these bastards and gang blokes and honor crime type people who just use whatever they'll get their hands on and use them as weapons. The acid attacks are a great example why OTC sulfuric acid is a bad idea.

It is a fact that few people will figure out the trouble of getting a business number just to buy a bottle of acid to throw it on some other people, so the ban is very effective at stopping that kind of stuff happening. On the other hand, people who are willing to go through the trouble, will usually scale things up considerably. I guess only good thing about organized crime is that they avoid collateral damage and as long as people don't bother, they don't bother people. They order an IBC of acid and use it low key in some warehouse, and the street acid thugs will only see the 3% speed paste they'll eventually get their hands on when it has passed through the food chain. Well, I suppose this is how the world works.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 11:06


Not long ago I had to get more sulfuric acid for my anodizing bath. Stopped by a shop specializing in batteries, but of course they wouldn't sell me any. But then we started discussing battery maintenance, and he quickly realized I probably knew as much as him on the subject. 5 minutes later I left with 3 liters :D





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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 11:17


Quote: Originally posted by Refinery  
The acid attacks are a great example why OTC sulfuric acid is a bad idea.


Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.

Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.
It's all about the people, not the things that they use.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 11:23


Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  


Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.

Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.
It's all about the people, not the things that they use.


Is that the reason why we see so little gun violence outside the USA? Of course I can get a gun if I really wanted, but because they are heavily restricted here, I don't have one.

Do you think there would be less drugs around if they were legal? Of course not.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 11:38


I know its borderline politics...
But switzerland has even more guns than the US, and yet they have much, much less gun violence.
The soldiers even have their guns at home.
So it really is about the people.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 11:43


In my country you can make gun license for sport purposes easily. There are many, many people having it, they own weapons (pistols, shotguns, rifles) and keep it at home. They can even have it wherever they want, loaded (in case of accidental police control you can say that you're going to the shooting range). Ok, you can say that still requires to have some paperwork to do.
But you can also buy the replica of black-powder weapon without any restriction. The only inconvenience is that you have to assembly the ammunition on your own. It's not the problem, everything is public available.
It is available from several years and I heard only about 3 incidents with black-powder weapon replica. Everytime it was used in self-defence.

Regarding drug related context - no, I don't think that there will be less drugs. We all have phenomenon of legal highs.
But we can reverse the question - do you think that making the drugs illegal will change the number of addicts and recreational users? The statistics could be a little better because some of them will be in jail. But wait, there are drugs too...
Even if they are illegal they are pretty available for everybody. You can order it directly to your home using darknet, it's the same as ordering books, flasks or reagents. The only thing that such a law can change is ruining somebody's life.

Look at Portugal's and how their situation changed after drugs decriminalization.

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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 12:16


Gun politics do effect gun violence. I hear two statements all the time:

- Any person can easily make a gun from steel bar with rudimentary tools
- Even a child can cook meth

Now that when we require that the weapon is semi-auto with high capacity magazine in normal caliber and it is reliable and reasonably accurate, things get very complicated really fast. Yes, a slam-fire shotgun can be made in garage, but it doesn't really make any effect as a firearm. Or about meth, maybe mixing some otc pills with certain other otc ingredients in a soda bottle, but if one wants reasonable amounts of high purity product with high profit margin - aint gonna happen.

So, control does have effect on outcome, but it can manifest in many ways. For example, gun bans reduce suicide by firearms, but overall suicide rates are unaffected, hence no lives saved. Gun violence seen to have more correlation with social issues than prevalence of firearms - Switzerland, Nordic countries, etc. are a fine example of very low gun violence rate even though they have significant private gun ownership rates., compared to countries like USA. The fact is that majority of gun crime there is related to gang activity and other crimes, and rate of violence among mid-class working population is comparable to Nordics.

Guns don't have such social recreational value than drugs do, so they are usually a minor trade in developed countries compared to drugs. Illegal firearms are very hard to come by where I live, and when they do, they are extremely expensive (1000-2000 bucks for an ordinary handgun) and they are usually from WW2 era or cold war surplus, reactivated or drilled blank firing guns.

If there is demand, there is market. If guns were sold by the kilo, sophisticated workshops would produce them. Lead costs for such a shop are in few 10's of k's and they could pay back within very short time. Look at what drug manufacturing hotspots do.

Sulfuric acid? I could say that, just maybe, ban on selling it on OTC retail outlets in too high concentration could have done the job they intend to. Low level thugs obtain whatever's cheap and does the job, in UK it is bladed weapons. In USA, just about every thug has a firearm.

For the record: I support 2nd amendment and drug decriminalization.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 13:31


I dont see an problem with sulfuric acid ban. You can easy make it by electolysis with an claypot diaphragma from any sulfates.You only need cheap current.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 13:49


Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung  
I dont see an problem with sulfuric acid ban. You can easy make it by electolysis with an claypot diaphragma from any sulfates.You only need cheap current.

Well then how do you get 96% concentration from that without gassing your whole neighbourhood?
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 13:52


I dont know what quantity you want to concentrate.But with smaller amounts you dont gas your neibours.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 22:18


Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  

Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?

It does, but as bj68 pointed out it comes with a whole new set of headaches, beginning with the location of your lab. It's pretty unlikely your building is zoned for a lab. Despite what we often feel, amateur chemistry is actually almost entirely unregulated compared to professional chemistry. The few regulations that do exist are just REALLY annoying.

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery  
Germany seems to have widespread regulations on many chemicals anyways, at least with the couple of suppliers I've dealt with. Basically everything that has of any value in chemistry and reacts more vigorously than table salt, is classified as some sort of "professional use only" reagent.

It's illegal to ship anything with a GHS skull and bones pictogram or those that are toxic to the organs to private individuals in Germany. Sale of CMR substances to private individuals is banned completely, but the toxic ones still can be sold over the counter or picked up in person at a chemical supplier.

Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero  
It also mentions potassium nitrate/clorate , calcium nitrate, hexamine,aluminum powders and many others.
A lot of essential chemicals for the home chemist.

Sale or possession however isn't banned. Only suspicious sales need to be reported according to the regulation.

Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero  
Serious point about the electrolyte , am I no longer allowed to fill my own battery or have did the moron bureaucrats forgot we actually need that for you know real life stuff.

Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  
I haven't read the full text - do they want to ban old types of car batteries, those which uses sulphuric acid? They need 30% or even more so it's over limits.

Only professionals will be allowed to replace the electrolyte. The batteries themselves (and the electrolyte contained within) are still legal to buy, own and use though, as they're considered an "article" under REACH and are thus exempted from this regulation.

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
There's still one thing I do not know though. Will this be enough for purchases from other countries ?

More specifically: UK requires a licences that doesnt exist in my country. Can I, if I'm legit here buy from them ?
I guess I'll just have to ask the question to a UK supplier someday.

The licenses specific to this regulation apply only to the general public. As a business you will not need a license to purchase the regulated chemicals.

Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  
Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.

No shit. The drive to ban acids did originate in the UK AFAIR, and they already banned strong acids before this regulation was passed. Officially the reason for the ban of sulfuric acid by this regulation is it's use in manufacture of TATP and HMTD, but - surprise, surprise - any other acid can be used as well, rendering this ban entirely useless. Citric acid supposedly works great ffs - have fun banning that. High strength H2O2 is much more important, and sale to the general public has been banned since 2016. Guess that ban isn't working, so they gotta ban more stuff?! How the fuck they don't see the idiocy is beyond me.

[Edited on 2020-7-16 by dawt]
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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 23:00


Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung  
I dont know what quantity you want to concentrate.But with smaller amounts you dont gas your neibours.


This is what I currently do with electrolyte which works perfectly fine, however if it would mean I'd have to boil off 90%+ it becomes a different story. I can imagine the price for a low concentration of acid would still be way too much, obtaining decent quantities would be expensive and a major pain.


Quote:

It does, but as bj68 pointed out it comes with a whole new set of headaches, beginning with the location of your lab. It's pretty unlikely your building is zoned for a lab. Despite what we often feel, amateur chemistry is actually almost entirely unregulated compared to professional chemistry. The few regulations that do exist are just REALLY annoying.


Eventhough I have nothing to hide I'd rather not make it a public affair. The problem with this so called legal/illegal state is that it is not that easy.

Let's say you do own potential precoursors and they want to inspect the place, depening on the mood of the officials involved they could get you into some serious trouble.
Even if you are the best kid in the class and do everything by the book, doing completely harmless chemistry there will be some asshole that will find wrong in what you are doing.
Might as well put up a sign 'Welcome to weird dude doing chemistry in his basement'

Paper chewing lifeforms love stuff like that!

Might be less risky to obtain these substances from the grey circuit.
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 01:12


Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban.




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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 01:16


Quote: Originally posted by Abromination  
Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban.


H202 is even harder to get in high concentrations and more likely to raise attention , at least where I am from.
I do not know of a feasible way to produce this at home in any reasonable amounts.
If any such thing can be done relatively easy and not requiring more exotic materials then it might be a good way of making sulfuric acid this way.
As mentioned above , apparently the ban on acids was initially inspired by it's requirement for making organic peroxides.

Boiling down electrolyte is a very simple thing to do and since batteries require relatively pure chemicals it is a proper source.



[Edited on 16-7-2020 by Belowzero]
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 01:22


Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  
Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.


Of course it will. Banning a precursor might not make things impossible, but it will make things harder. Sure you can make sulfuric acid from OTC chemicals, but it's a lot of work. So most people won't even start on such a endeavor.





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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 01:29


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  
Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.


Of course it will. Banning a precursor might not make things impossible, but it will make things harder. Sure you can make sulfuric acid from OTC chemicals, but it's a lot of work. So most people won't even start on such a endeavor.



That is exactly the problem here, sulfuric acid is one of those cornerstones.
KNO3 can be made from horse manure, only thing I need now is some horses and a couple months off.
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 02:28


Alternative you can make very pure h2so4 with lead hcl and CaSo4.
Here is the link its in german.
http://dingler.culture.hu-berlin.de/article/pj139/ar139070
or an very informative Dokumentation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XVt_ca97WE&t=560s
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 06:11


What is the best way for me to make H2SO4 in the UK as basically all acid is banned here and even if you try and buy battery acid you get a substitute which is distilled water



Green QD's so far

Feel free to correct grammar or incorect knknowledge. We are all learning.
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 07:22


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  

Of course it will. Banning a precursor might not make things impossible, but it will make things harder. Sure you can make sulfuric acid from OTC chemicals, but it's a lot of work. So most people won't even start on such a endeavor.



And you think if somebody is determined he will not change the tool in case when one is banned? If a terrorist can't bomb the city he will get a truck and run over the crowd as it was done in Germany two years ago.

Even if sulphuric acid will not be available for public and it will require the license to buy - do you think it will be impossible to buy?

We should think at first about people who we want to stop using such regulations. Are there many mental ill bastards who are blowing up themselves in crowded places? I don't think so.
But there are organized groups who plan and perform such attacks across the whole world. They use banned already weapon, hand granades and explosives. They have their people everywhere - in special services, in tech companies.
Do you know that one of the terrorist group used ordinal gmail for communication? They didn't send any message, they knew from somebody inside the tech company that google hadn't been scanning working copys - so they kept their conversations in a message which have not be sent anywhere but they have been logging to one account.

So, if you think that will stop any organized group - I think you're wrong. If somebody wants to stop other people from doing bad things - he should also ban knives, cars and kitchen propane-butane tanks which are easily available and also can be very effective.
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 09:45


Like Nurdrage said about chlorate cell, you could make things much more rigid, but that'd pay off only if you were making it in 100's of kilos.

Same applies to most other synthesis. An amateur can, indeed, manufacture a single reagent in tens or even hundreds of kilos, but that would require full workday input, meaning, your only chemistry application would be to synthesize this single product. Sulfuric acid? Sure, build a sophisticated plant and feed it with non controlled stuff and adjust it for continuous production, and you'll get 100's of liters per month, but what then? There is no market, merely a black market for homemade sulfuric acid for that matter.

The horsedungium nitrate is similar matter. Concept is simple enough to be carried out with 1700's equipment, but you just ain't doing it in your apartment, in no way.

Btw, Paris shootings had nothing to do with legal firearms. Yet it made EU ban semiauto rifles and mags over 10 rounds. I honestly consider this kind of politics a dosomethingism and also an excuse to restrict freedoms due to political liability. The one politician that says "not on my watch" will take every single freedom and right away if it could be used to cause harm that could cause questions for them. Encryption? Allows terrorists to message in secret. Home privacy? Crimes can be committed in home, like cooking drugs and bombs. Freedom of expression? Someone could say something rude, or even worse, question the system.
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 13:23


Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero  
Quote: Originally posted by Abromination  
Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban.


H202 is even harder to get in high concentrations and more likely to raise attention , at least where I am from.
I do not know of a feasible way to produce this at home in any reasonable amounts.
If any such thing can be done relatively easy and not requiring more exotic materials then it might be a good way of making sulfuric acid this way.
As mentioned above , apparently the ban on acids was initially inspired by it's requirement for making organic peroxides.

Boiling down electrolyte is a very simple thing to do and since batteries require relatively pure chemicals it is a proper source.



[Edited on 16-7-2020 by Belowzero]


Go with whatever works with you, but 3 percent H2O2 can be evaporated using a clean and smooth glass beaker on low heat without appreciable decomposition. It is quite easy to concentrate it above 15 or 20 percent, confirmed by density.




List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 20:37


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Yes it is highly unlikely.
If you only register for the VAT number(which is rather done at the tax office, "Finanzamt"), they don't even care about what sort of business you have or not have.
That only becomes relevant for other things.



A few years ago I had a talk with the people from Sigma-Aldrich, because the where here in the University....at this time (the law has changed, you have to renew it every few years) I had from my apprenticeship (pharmaceutical technical assistant) the licence (in Germany) to sell chemicals to the public. My question was, why I could not buy legal (no permit, not against a law e.g. narcotic, explosive) chemicals as private and if I have a business there is no problem with it.
Answer was if you have a business other authorities will watch you....

For example Kremer Pigmente wants the trade certificate (Gewerbeschein) and not the VAT-Number, for Sigma-Aldrich it´s the same: "Ferner senden Sie bitte Ihre aktuell gültigen Unternehmens bzw. Institutsunterlagen (z.B. Gewerbeschein oder Handelsregister Auszug) zusammen mit Ihrer Erstbestellung" and if you request that trade certificate you have to specify your business and that will be reported to other authorities see "Anmeldeweg" in https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewerbeanmeldung#Rechtsfragen
e.g. Bauaufsichtsbehörde or Berufsgenossenschaft and that guys will make inspections.

VAT-Number is not enough...

bj68
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 20:48


First time I have seen this.

I am amazed that a chemical as useful as H2SO4 can even be banned from use.
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 22:30


Quote: Originally posted by Abromination  
Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero  
Quote: Originally posted by Abromination  
Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban.


H202 is even harder to get in high concentrations and more likely to raise attention , at least where I am from.
I do not know of a feasible way to produce this at home in any reasonable amounts.
If any such thing can be done relatively easy and not requiring more exotic materials then it might be a good way of making sulfuric acid this way.
As mentioned above , apparently the ban on acids was initially inspired by it's requirement for making organic peroxides.

Boiling down electrolyte is a very simple thing to do and since batteries require relatively pure chemicals it is a proper source.



[Edited on 16-7-2020 by Belowzero]


Go with whatever works with you, but 3 percent H2O2 can be evaporated using a clean and smooth glass beaker on low heat without appreciable decomposition. It is quite easy to concentrate it above 15 or 20 percent, confirmed by density.


Don't get me wrong , if this is a viable method then it might be decent alternative!

Just out of curiosity I will conduct some experiments with it.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2020 at 00:04


Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  

And you think if somebody is determined he will not change the tool in case when one is banned?


What you fail to realize is that it's a numbers game. Every time you limit options the number of people capable of circumvent them drops. And the risk of detection usually increases.




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