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Author: Subject: European Sulfuric Acid Ban
outer_limits
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But still, well organized groups won't have any problems with manufacturing explosives.

Affected people will be those who want to refill the battery. Instead of doing it themselves they will have to pay much more to a mechanic for doing that.

And, no - government don't want your safety. They want to have control. Each year more and more. That's the only goal
BJ68
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 Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits But still, well organized groups won't have any problems with manufacturing explosives.

They do not need to manufacture or do you think the nice stuff (arms, munition, explosives) what was and is sold to "Moderate Rebells" will stay at the place where it was sold?

Or think what is lying around in the basement or attic at former Yugoslavia or is used actually in some part of the Ukraine ?
Even here in Germany you can find something in the forest for World War II what is useful....

Sometimes people get caught:

b) First paragraph https://www.pnp.de/nachrichten/bayern/Fahnder-Bilanz-Kalasch...
this incident was short before Bataclan....

bj68

[Edited on 17-7-2020 by BJ68]
Refinery
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 Quote: Originally posted by BJ68 VAT-Number is not enough... bj68

Afaik the VAT number is practically always handed over upon official company filing confirmation. The number translates to company registration number in some countries. I've never seen this thing put in this way. Second, there are different forms of companies, from personal business entities to shared joint stock companies, etc, depending on country.

Not sure about Germany, but it sounds really bureaucratic country. The easiest types of companies require just filling form where you put your name and sign it, and the company is valid and operational within 24-48 hours.
Fulmen
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 Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits government don't want your safety.

True enough. It's the people that want to be safe. The politicians are like car salesmen, they will say anything to sell you whatever they have on the lot. And what they get in return is control. But that doesn't mean they're lying.

 Quote: well organized groups won't have any problems with manufacturing explosives

Sure they will. It might not be impossible, but well designed regulations can increase cost and complexity considerably. This reduces the number of successful attempts.

We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
tubelectric
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Hm... So this means that filling your car or motorcycle battery will require a chemicals license of some sort? Battery acid that is sold in car parts shops seems to be 20 to 50 %.

Also, no more sulphuric acid drain cleaners to the general public... I remember that 70% stuff was sold in a local, ordinary hardware store, although not on the consumer grade chemicals shelf. And I think I've seen 96% acid being sold in specialized plumbing shops. Not sure if it was sold to anyone or only professionals.
karlos³
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Where in europe are they even selling concentrated H2SO4 as drain cleaner?
Certainly I've never seen that in my own country, only the lye based ones.

Also, is this stuff even really effective for that purpose? I would imagine that normal people adding conc. sulfuric acid into their toilet water would probably cause more injuries from splatters than it would result in unclogged drains, no?
NaOH for that purpose is without a doubt much more effective for that, I mean only if it isn't added directly as solid as many "normies" are doing and thus causing another clogged section of the drain

On the topic, I just bought two liters of cheap battery acid from a discount store, just in case.
I plan to purchase a 5l canister of conc. H2SO4 this year before its too late, that will likely last a life time, while also being so much cheaper in bulk.
Think I paid more for much smaller amounts than the price of such a canister(from the latvian shop by the way, good price and also, Linards is cool).
outer_limits
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I know at least one drain cleaner which is 96% H2SO4 according to product SDS which is available in Poland.

I have almost 4l of supply but maybe I will buy a bit more until it's easy to buy and dirty cheap.
Corrosive Joeseph
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 Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ Where in europe are they even selling concentrated H2SO4 as drain cleaner?

Where I live there is one product which is on the hardware store shelf and it is water white 95% H2SO4.... Hard enough to find, not in every shop, but it is available.

There is also an online electronics supply store in the city where reagent grade 96% and 98% is available to anybody but I fear all these sources will dry up when this directive takes effect.

/CJ

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Belowzero
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 Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ Where in europe are they even selling concentrated H2SO4 as drain cleaner? Certainly I've never seen that in my own country, only the lye based ones.

Where I live it is rare too but I came acros it on quite a few occasions, smaller hardware shops often, not the big chains.
I also found it in a few farmer supply stores.

Also there are quite a few pool stores that have 37% sulfuric acid, if you dont mind buying 25L
Tsjerk
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 Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ Also, is this stuff even really effective for that purpose?

Hell yes! Besides the standard things like hair (which NaOH does a good job on) it also dissolves complete roles of toilet paper! In my time as a student on multiple occasions I found a toilet clogged with a roll of toilet paper. Concentrated sulfuric eats through it like it is nothing.
Fulmen
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I have seen it sold at wholesale shops here in Norway that supply plumbers and similar. But those shops don't sell to the public. I have found a few retailers that list it in their webshops, but none anywhere close so I haven't had time to visit any of them yet. And there are online plumbing shops that offer it with no apparent limitations, but I prefer cash payment when shopping potentially monitored substances.

We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
valeg96
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In Italy there's a brand of almost colourless 98% sulfuric acid drain cleaner (3€/L), and many others that are dyed blue, but are sold in hardware stores only. Others are NaOH solutions, and solid NaOH (4€/kg) is being sold less and less nowadays. I'll definitely get a couple extra bottles now that I know it. Thanks for the info!

Fyndium
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The few days I wish I lived in italy. Perhaps someone could ship a pallet for me, because I just ordered a full canister of sulfuric acid for 8€/L.
Fyndium
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I did read through the new directive and the terms used make it appear quite scary. The restrictions for sulfuric acid are draconic; it is treated like it was an actual explosive material and it must be licensed and even in businesses it must be registered and a log kept to who it has been sold to. I'm not sure how seriously they consider it in reality, looking at the fact that it has been around for decades free for sale.

Thank god there is the 1 year interim period when possession is still fully legal. That's before 1st of Feb 2022.
Herr Haber
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I havent read through it that time. Did that the last ban...

Is there anything in the text about businesses having to keep track of their stock and usage ?
Good luck to the metal industry if there is.

The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
Fyndium
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Yes, the list 1 stuff (sulfuric and nitric acid and H2O2) must be recorded and tracked and kept for 18 months, unauthorized personnel or third parties must be prevented from getting to areas where they are used, blah blah. I don't know if this register is kept only in case, or is it surveyed regularly by some state security. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd ransack some small businesses for purcashing the stuff because it's dictated as the evil's liquor, when in reality they dip their rusty wrenches in it. Oh, and how about anodizing? EU is turning things into corporatism in good pace by banning or bureaucratizing everything to the extent it becomes impossible for a small company to follow them.

I still find it obscure that such commodity chemical like sulfuric acid is to be banned. Even our police stated in some of their articles that the ban is pretty ineffective for preventing homemade bombs, because there are various alternatives on the market. Then there is that it still can be bought up to 15% so it only merely slows down the bad guys, but annoys the hell out of good guys.

[Edited on 28-10-2020 by Fyndium]
valeg96
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Update from Italy: My local hardware shops have just been informed that Italy is going to follow the directive starting from 01/01/2021. Sale of listed chemicals will be allowed as long as they are in stock, but they won't be resupplied anymore after 01/01.

Pro tip: Just tell your local hardware shops that you need sulfuric acid for steel treatments or aluminium anodizing and they'll understand why you're buying 5 liters of drain cleaner.

Xanax
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Damn...

I practised in the color shop 2005. 96% H2SO4 has been banned in Sweden for long, but in the storehouse they had a 5L jerrican that I got for $20. Then I sold it for about$15 (but i saved about 50 ml). But they had for sure stoled it when I had a round-up... However, I was only convicted (2014) for possesioning of HNO3, not the H2SO4, but I guess the rules are stricter now?
Fyndium
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Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?
Xanax
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 Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?

It's not allowed to posses more than 15% of sulfuric acid, but I guess there are exceptions for possesing car batteries? That law is pretty new, some year ago.

And you may not have nitric acid with a percetage over 3%. That has med banned for long time.

When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

Now I've started a little lab again, with innocents chemicals, but it is difficult to read all new paragraphes and be updated.

[Edited on 2021-5-24 by Xanax]

Studying chemistry more seriously now!
Convicted 2014 for crime against the radiation saftey law; https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14406766
Blog, diary and homepage; https://www.richardhandl.com/ (swedish, but with translation option)
Belowzero
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 Quote: Originally posted by Xanax When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid. [Edited on 2021-5-24 by Xanax]

I am very curious to know what happened, would you mind explaining how they found out and what happened after that?

[Edited on 24-5-2021 by Belowzero]
Keras
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Quote: Originally posted by Xanax
 Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?
When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

Just out of sheer curiosity, what were you sentenced to?
Xanax
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Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero
 Quote: Originally posted by Xanax When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

I am very curious to know what happened, would you mind explaining how they found out and what happened after that?

I have always been interessted in chemistry/physics and when I was a kid my dad had some pharmacies, so I could easaly get chemicals to build a little home-lab in our house. When moving into an appartment I get rid of all dangerous chemicals. But I still collected radioactive sorurces. It was innocents things like uraniumglass, clock-fingers with radium and americium from smokedetectors and stuff like that.

Then I did a less seriously experiments with radioactivity, to see "if I could split atoms" and se if I could "change the radiation", whith for example beryllium.

Then I started arguing on a swedish discussionboard, then someone said and claimed that I was not allowed to post my interests, due it wasn't legal.

Of course it is legal! At least, I thougt! You can buy smoke-detectors legal everyware, old clocks an uraniumglass at the antique shop. Maybe the beryllium was to poisounous to handle. The radiation in it isn't high and dagerous, unless you eat it.

So I wrote a mail to the Swedeish Radiation Saftey Authority and asked how much radioactive stuff it is allow to posess as a private person. But then, thay wanted to came down and check out my apartment with geigercouters!

Then they had the police with them and wented thru my apartment and found some mystical bottles (50 ml H2SO4, and 50 ml HNO3). But the worst was that I had also extrakted the toxins ricin and abrin from Ricinus communis and Abrus precatorius.

So, I was convicted for crime aganist the radiation safty law, which it was a little strange. My total radioactivity-collection may gave around 1-2 MBq total. Each clockfinger and each smokedetector gave about 35 kBq each. So my lawayer asked the wittness from the Radiation Saftey Authoroty how much you are allowed at home. And after som thinking he came with 100 kBq. Thats a banana!

But for the ricin I was also suspected fore crime against the conventions of chemical weapon, and for som reason, the abrin was mentioned as a biological warfare.

But I was only convicted for 1 (of 2) radiation crimes, 3 and 4 (the more seriously points with the chemical and biologigal warfare, I was acquitted. Just on point 5 too, possesioning av ricin, abrin and nitric acid (not the sulfuric acid).

Quote: Originally posted by Keras
Quote: Originally posted by Xanax
 Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?
When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

Just out of sheer curiosity, what were you sentenced to?

I got 13600 swedish kronor in fines, it is about \$1650. But I went thru a forensic psychiatric examination, but I confessed it all, and behaved me properly in court.

And... It was only 2 days before Breivik attacked Norway including with his homemade ammonium nitrate bomb, and they also foud two police uniforms in my apartment. So I'll geuss the wouldn't exclude any possible terrorism.

[Edited on 2021-5-25 by Xanax]

Studying chemistry more seriously now!
Convicted 2014 for crime against the radiation saftey law; https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14406766
Blog, diary and homepage; https://www.richardhandl.com/ (swedish, but with translation option)
Belowzero
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 Quote: So I wrote a mail to the Swedeish Radiation Saftey Authority and asked how much radioactive stuff it is allow to posess as a private person. But then, thay wanted to came down and check out my apartment with geigercouters!

That must have quite the day.
I appreciate your honesty and good will, kinda rough to receive such treatment for being a decent person.

 Quote: So my lawayer asked the wittness from the Radiation Saftey Authoroty how much you are allowed at home. And after som thinking he came with 100 kBq. Thats a banana!

This is absolutely hilarious!

Kinda sad to see that they can't make a distinction between resonsible people and those with bad intentions.
I guess this is how government works in general, feels degrading too to have those that are often less knowledgeable decide what we can and can't do, often with far stretching consequences.
Hoffit
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It seems laws are implemented differently in different countries. It seems on some countries only sales is restricted while on some countries possession is illegal. On first case you can just make it yourself, on the latter you need to adapt your methods (like make esters using other acid catalysts or making it in situ keeping the mixture below limited value for some other case and so on).

A life with only dilute mineral acids can sometimes be quite a challenge for the hobbyist.
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Legal and Societal Issues » European Sulfuric Acid Ban Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues