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Author: Subject: Hydroxychloroquine, could an amateur make this stuff ?
ShotBored
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Quote: Originally posted by Eddie Current
Quote: Originally posted by unionised
 Quote: Originally posted by Eddie Current I wouldn't take anything in the mainstream media or politicized organizations like the WHO that seriously.

If you think the WHO is "politicised" try "America's Frontline Doctors " who are sponsored by the Tea Party movement.

Meanwhile, Trump is defunding WHO because they refuse to do his bidding.
If they did what a politician told them to, that would actually be political.
They aren't.

Bureaucratic (WHO) and corporate swine.

I have no time for any of them.

This is a political argument statement, not a scientific one. WHO puts out good science that is widely regarded by intellectuals across the world. The only one's who seem to be railing against them currently are the "anti-intellectuals".

EDIT: I fucked up the quotations

[Edited on 4-8-2020 by ShotBored]
Pyro_cat
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So its not easy to make.

The left vs right thing has become such large mass of BS that its created its own gravitational field in sucks in and divides every issue. Nothing can escape it.

Its all bull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package-deal_fallacy

macckone
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Pyro_cat:

You came in with a political agenda, not a scientific one.
The science is clear that HCQ does not work.
Dexamethasone is the drug of choice.

HCQ is not hard to make but it probably isn't a good starter synthesis.
It can literally be bought at fish stores for treating parasites.
But you have to get the dose right as it has killed people already.
And yes the stuff at fish stores is the same as the medicine just very concentrated as it has to be diluted to be used in a fish tank.
Chemi Pharma
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 Quote: Originally posted by macckone Pyro_cat: You came in with a political agenda, not a scientific one. The science is clear that HCQ does not work. Dexamethasone is the drug of choice. HCQ is not hard to make but it probably isn't a good starter synthesis. It can literally be bought at fish stores for treating parasites. But you have to get the dose right as it has killed people already. And yes the stuff at fish stores is the same as the medicine just very concentrated as it has to be diluted to be used in a fish tank.

No @macckone, it's not the same sold at fish stores. This is desinformation. At fish stores you can get Chloroquine phosphate, very toxic for the human been. The usual daily doses against malaria is only 150 mg. Cause this some doctors are prescribing hydroxychloroquine sulfate, much less toxic and with daily dosage of 400mg.

Deaths from the misuse of chloroquine phosphate is knowed and US have a case where a couple of old persons ingested the compound directly from a box of a fish store with a spoon and both were poisoned and passed away.

Hydroxychloroquine sulfate, by the way, don't cause deaths with a dosage equal or below 600mg daily. And the only risk with a higher dosage is cardiac arritmia that can be prevented with a betablocker such as Propanolol.

It's funny. A medicine that has been taked by thousand people in the last past 70 years against malaria with no significant complications now is demonized by the midia just to screw up with Donald Trump.
macckone
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Quote: Originally posted by Chemi Pharma
 Quote: Originally posted by macckone Pyro_cat: You came in with a political agenda, not a scientific one. The science is clear that HCQ does not work. Dexamethasone is the drug of choice. HCQ is not hard to make but it probably isn't a good starter synthesis. It can literally be bought at fish stores for treating parasites. But you have to get the dose right as it has killed people already. And yes the stuff at fish stores is the same as the medicine just very concentrated as it has to be diluted to be used in a fish tank.

No @macckone, it's not the same sold at fish stores. This is desinformation. At fish stores you can get Chloroquine phosphate, very toxic for the human been. The usual daily doses against malaria is only 150 mg. Cause this some doctors are prescribing hydroxychloroquine sulfate, much less toxic and with daily dosage of 400mg.

Deaths from the misuse of chloroquine phosphate is knowed and US have a case where a couple of old persons ingested the compound directly from a box of a fish store with a spoon and both were poisoned and passed away.

Hydroxychloroquine sulfate, by the way, don't cause deaths with a dosage equal or below 600mg daily. And the only risk with a higher dosage is cardiac arritmia that can be prevented with a betablocker such as Propanolol.

It's funny. A medicine that has been taked by thousand people in the last past 70 years against malaria with no significant complications now is demonized by the midia just to screw up with Donald Trump.

Yes you can get HCQ sulfate at aquarium supply stores. It is preferable to the phosphate form because it is less toxic to fish as well as humans. The procedure is diluting the substance with water to prepare a solution, then adding an amount of the solution to the tank based on number of gallons. A teaspoon of HCQ sulfate would also be fatal. That is about 5g (give or take depending on density).

HCQ sulfate
The dosing for acute malaria is 2000mg over 48 hours.
The prophylactic for malaria is 400mg once a week.

CQ phosphate dosing
Prophylatic dose is 300mg once a week.

The proposed dosing for covid was 200mg twice a day for 2 weeks.
The proposed dosing was still short of the required serum levels to achieve the level that was inhibitory to covid in vitro.
And it is significantly more than is used for malaria.
And for the record both forms are still being tested in trials.
And no blinded trials have found HCQ effective.
The most touted study also used dexamethasone to treat some patients and was not blinded so it
a) has a known interferent
b) was not a blinded trial

Finally the HCQ isn't recommended for people with heart problems. 70+% of covid patients develop some degree of heart damage (even asymptomatic ones). So the disease literally causes a problem that contraindicates the drug. This is science. Dexamethasone works, HCQ and CQ do not. It is cheaper and doesn't cause heart issues. However all three interfere with the immune response to some degree. Which is why HCQ and Dexamethasone are used to treat various autoimmune problems.

https://www.rxlist.com/plaquenil-drug.htm#dosage

https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan...

zed
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Medical Doctors have been known to promote all sorts of silly shit. They once were trumpeting that AIDS was caused by the effects of excessive semen intake, and poppers. Seriously, I was in SF, at the time of the AIDS emergence, and whacko theories were adopted as fact, by the local doc's, and plastered in the headlines of the local newspapers.

Local scientists knew these theories were doubtful, but reporters weren't asking them.

To a large degree, Medical doctors are not scientists; judge their pronouncements accordingly.

I studied research methodology. It can be quite difficult to figure out what is really going on. Especially so, when many studies are managed by paid advocates.

Plasma figures to be a helpful treatment. Dexamethazone dampens destructive auto-immune reactions, that are a serious hazard. Remdesavir, is manufactured by the devil. Well, in a corporate sense. I have little trust in the developer. If ever there was big Pharma without scruples, Gilead might be a foremost representative. They have taken pills that cost a dollar apiece to manufacture, and priced them at 1,000.00
dollars each. Somebody says Remdesavir works. I'd need to see more data. The country of India, measured them for size, and then refused to grant a patent for Gilead product Harvoni,
Cost was 1000 dollars per tablet in U.S., yet in a short period of time, it was available for about 10.00/ tablet to Indians.

[Edited on 10-8-2020 by zed]
macckone
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Zed,
Remdesivir is not a miracle drug.
It is known to cause liver damage.
It decreased recovery times and had a significant reduction in deaths (more than 5%).
It will take time to determine if it is cost effective. My gut says no.
Dexamethasone seems much more cost effective, greater reduction in deaths and less than $1 per pill. But remdesivir works on a different mechanism (stopping viral replication) so the two can be stacked. Remdesivir has a significant shortage with Gilead allowing foreign countries to figure out how to make it themselves and only charging nominal royalty fees because they don't want it declared 'critical' and the patents voided overseas. zed International Hazard Posts: 1966 Registered: 6-9-2008 Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland Member Is Online Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord " The first results from the NIAID study in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 showed that remdesivir shortened time to recovery by an average of four days. Taking the example of the United States, earlier hospital discharge would result in hospital savings of approximately$12,000 per patient. Even just considering these immediate savings to the healthcare system alone, we can see the potential value that remdesivir provides. This is before we factor in the direct benefit to those patients who may have a shorter stay in the hospital." Gilead.

"In normal circumstances, we would price a medicine according to the value it provides."

That means, if we have it, and you need it to live... The sky is the limit, in terms of price!

Now Gilead, was generous with initial doses of the drug. True! Seems they had supplies on hand.
They were hoping it might be an effective treatment for Ebola, and it wasn't. What to do with it all?
Well, try it out on something else.

But perhaps I am prejudiced. I'm still mad at them about Harvoni.

macckone
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zed,
I don't think you are prejudice.
Most drug manufacturers are money grubbers that would sell their mother for a buck.
Welcome to end stage capitalism.
One of the reasons hydroxychloroquine was hyped was because certain people invested in it.
Not because it was effective or safe at the required dosages.

Remdesivir does have benefits and it costs way more than a buck to make but nowhere near the \$3000 being charged for a course of treatment (assuming you could get it which you probably can't due to shortages).
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Miscellaneous » Hydroxychloroquine, could an amateur make this stuff ? Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum