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Author: Subject: Is it too much to ask to wear a mask?
stoichiometric_steve
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 Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid So being a giant toddler, waving your rattle and screaming "I don't wike it!!!" is a medical condition now?

It truly baffles me how people with a great understanding of chemistry just cannot wrap their heads around the simple, yet highly effective physical protection that basically any kind of fabric (given sufficient layer thickness) will provide against spreading droplets.

It's a respiratory disease after all, isn't it? So if masks aren't necessary or effective, what is? Following that logic, fucking someone carrying chlamydia without protection is safe as well, right?

As a health professional, i had an unbreakable will to protect and further the health of the general public, up until it became evident that utter idiocy has infected a vast amount of people, sadly beyond all hope of any recovery. All I'm hoping for now is that they all get killed by whatever fake pandemic they're protesting against. Better sooner than later, too!
arkoma
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Everyone has had their chance to express themselves. I vote for a thread lock.

*edit* don't see this going anywhere. I expressed my opinion early and stayed out since. Strife and division is all I see coming out of this thread.

[Edited on 9-21-2020 by arkoma]

 Quote: Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Mark Twain

sodium_stearate
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value

Trust me. If I saw *any* value whatsoever
in being forced to breathe my own stale air

But the fact is that I realize that it does nothing else
except put on a show of compliance.

That kind of theater needs to be left at the playhouse
where people pay to see fictional drama.

I do not expect hardly anyone here to grasp the concept.

"Opportunity is missed by most people
because it is dressed in overalls and it
looks like work" T.A. Edison
Bmoore55
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Well this thread has been quite illuminating, perhaps we can all take a big step back and think for a second. Why are we at eachothers throats here? Sure people on either side of the argument have staunch beliefs, but should we resort to name calling? Isn't this a science forum? Perhaps these arguments have some merit on either side of the discussion! Rather than screaming at each other, maybe we could be a bit constructive. Would it be too much to ask to try and turn this thread into a catalogue of data that could be discussed, politely, to determine certain aspects of a masks efficacy? Or could we, as scientifically minded folks, maybe review some data like the infection rates and death counts together to see who among us is actually receiving quality information and how to filter out good vs bad data. Or maybe discuss ways that we interpret the data to make sense of it to avoid fear mongering or histeria. Is it just me or is that what we should be doing? If I wanted to see people scream at each other about who has the more perfect opinion then I could always hop on twitter for a minute to feel sad.
DraconicAcid
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 Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate Trust me. If I saw *any* value whatsoever in being forced to breathe my own stale air inside of a mask, I'd gladly wear it.

Your lung capacity is surely greater than the amount of air held by the mask, so surely it's not all air that you've just exhaled.

Even the simplest of cloth masks will filter out particles of mucus and saliva expelled when you cough, sneeze, speak enthusiastically (or in Dutch), etc. These are the particles that carry viruses around, which you should NOT be exposing other people to.

Whining that you don't like it is like whining that urinals splash urine back at you, so you'd much rather piss in the open air of a public street, and anyone who doesn't like it should just stop being a sheep.

Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
stoichiometric_steve
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 Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid Your lung capacity is surely greater than the amount of air held by the mask, so surely it's not all air that you've just exhaled.

You again with your stupid simple explanations and relatable facts. CAN'T YOU SEE IT'S ALL A HUGE CONSPIRACY?

nzlostpass
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To those who think it is a conspiracy or fake or just as bad as a flu...how do you explain almost a million people dead from it? Can you show me what year recently that a million people died from a simple cold or flu?
I believe there is a chance it is manmade or deliberately put out into the public but it sure as hell is a thing.

We here in NZ had a heap of elderly in just one rest home die from it. We have never had that many oldies die from a flu/cold in just one rest home before.

As for masks, its not that bad wearing one and if theres a chance it helps then its not that big of a deal. We have only had a handful of cases here but we still wear masks in certain situations just in case. Its just a matter of not being selfish for the greater good in my opinion.
DraconicAcid
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 Quote: Originally posted by nzlostpass To those who think it is a conspiracy or fake or just as bad as a flu...how do you explain almost a million people dead from it? Can you show me what year recently that a million people died from a simple cold or flu?

I've had people assure me that every death gets officially blamed on COVID, regardless of what the person died from. So the nearly a million people is just regular death.

Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
arkoma
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from bmoore
 Quote: If I wanted to see people scream at each other about who has the more perfect opinion then I could always hop on twitter for a minute to feel sad.

Agree whole heartedly

 Quote: Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Mark Twain

WGTR
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In my county there are two active cases. Two...in a county of about 20,000 people. There have been around 100 total cases this year. Hardly anyone here wears a mask, even in the stores. What we do instead is keep our distance from people that we don't know. We have groups of friends that we hang out with that are like quasi-family. It's an unspoken rule that if anyone has close contact with someone that they don't normally see, then they spend some time isolated from their regular group of friends/family. Given that this thing has been going on for a while now people have learned to adjust in this way, at least where I live.

If we see people wearing masks we give them some extra space because either they may be sick, or (more often than not) you can see fear in their eyes and we're just trying to help them feel more comfortable.

If the mask is working like it's supposed to then the level of breathing effort is significant. I have to wear one in the city when I go to work. I have to loosen it after every flight of stairs just to catch my breath, and I'm a runner. It makes sense if you realize that in order to breath in you're creating a vacuum. Any restriction slows down respiration speed. Each breath simply takes longer. At least it does for me, since I have mild asthma anyway. I do start panicking a little bit until I can lift off the mask and take a deep breath.

I find it difficult to communicate in one. I can only see eyes, not facial expressions. And then I sound like I'm talking with a pillow wrapped around my face.

Yeah, wearing a mask is a big problem for me. The possibility of wearing one for another year or two or three is not tenable. At some point early next year I'll just quit wearing one. But then I suspect that most other people around here will be in the same frame of mind too.

I'm looking at the excess death numbers in my country and it looks like there was a big spike early in the year, then there was a smaller spike later in the year, and now it's going back down quickly. I suspect that most people who had a bad reaction to this virus were either very susceptible to this genetically or were near the end of their lives already. We'll see next year, but I would not be surprised if excess mortality numbers came back down to normal soon or even go negative for a while.

Herr Haber
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Dunno about you but I was a bit annoyed when I saw the obscene margins.

9.90 for 10 in a pharmacy
0.28 by 5000 from my lab supplier.

The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
clearly_not_atara
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 Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate Trust me. If I saw *any* value whatsoever in being forced to breathe my own stale air inside of a mask, I'd gladly wear it.

It's pretty easy to understand why masks work.

First, particles in the air electrostatically adhere to surfaces. The charge-to-mass ratio is larger for smaller particles, making them more sticky. Airborne particles are charged by the triboelectric effect, particularly when a particle is expelled from a living organism with a membrane potential on its cells.

Second, particles in the air undergo constant Brownian motion, oscillating at an instantaneous velocity much faster than anyone can exhale. That means that, while not 1, the probability of a particle colliding with a surface is much larger than if you imagine sand falling through a grating, as some people apparently do. It's not like that -- microscopic droplets constantly wobble back and forth. And of course the smaller the particle, the more irregular its path will be.

Viruses are transmitted by two kinds of particles: droplets and free virions. Droplets are made of water and adhere to surfaces easily; they tend to be on a length scale comparable to the gaps in tight fabric. Virions are much smaller than the gaps in fabric, and at their size have a very high charge-to-mass ratio. While a virion certainly can pass through fabric without sticking, the fraction of virions that do is not that large. This has been verified by actually measuring it:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2?ContensisT...

Therefore, the concentration of droplets and virions in exhaled air is reduced significantly by passing that air through a mask, or even near one, since as we all know the seals aren't perfect.

Now, when a virus encounters living tissue, it has a generally small probability of actually causing infection. It may infect a cell which releases interferon and becomes apoptotic, ending the virus life cycle; it may encounter a macrophage, which destroys it; it may simply be destroyed by chance encounters with transition metal ions and free radicals; or, in some cases, it may successfully infect a cell, reproduce, and release more viruses. These preliminary defenses are grouped together under the term "primary immunity".

In other words, the probability of becoming infected after inhaling one particle of SARS-CoV-2 is some number p for 0 < p < 1. Since viruses infecting cells which are far apart usually do not interact with each other, the probability of being infected after being exposed to N viruses is P(N) = 1 - (1-p)^N.

It is easy to see that dP/dN > 0 for all N > 1. Therefore, being exposed to more viruses increases the chance of infection. Since masks reduce the number of viruses propelled into ambient air by an infected person, they also reduce the number of viruses an uninfected individual near that person will encounter, ceteris paribus. It follows that masks reduce the probability of disease transmission.

It is a mathematical and biological fact that masks reduce the probability of transmitting SARS-CoV-2. Churlish contradiction is wilful ignorance.

[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
stoichiometric_steve
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Questioning the effectiveness of masks is like questioning the suitability of a boot against getting wet feet. Stupidity at its highest level.

I'm kinda happy we got to this point, makes it easier to decide whom to exclude from one's life.
B(a)P
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 Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber Dunno about you but I was a bit annoyed when I saw the obscene margins. 9.90 for 10 in a pharmacy 0.28 by 5000 from my lab supplier.

We have always used P2 masks routinely for work.
In Jan 2020 we could get them for $0.50AU ea In April - May 2020 we couldn't get them Since June they have been around$7 ea
sodium_stearate
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A mask is nothing but a costume which signifies
compliance.

"Opportunity is missed by most people
because it is dressed in overalls and it
looks like work" T.A. Edison
wg48temp9
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I thinks this thread has been informative at least to me if not to anyone else.

I am still amazed by these types dichotomies though not surprised anymore.

I think the evidence for the benefits of wearing a mask is overwhelming and its difficult for me to understand why everyone else does not agree but then most/many people in the world believe in God, ghosts homeopathy and some people expanding space, none of which I believe in.

I shop once a week late evening so there are very few other shoppers. I particularly keep my distance from people not wearing a mask as their cavalier attitudes suggest to me they are more likely to be infected. They should be required to wear a bleeper so I can hears them coming LOL

I should add that I am a vulnerable (to the virus) person so my self interest in my own survival may have biased my views. But be warned if I catch the virus from someone not wearing a mask and in the very unlikely (even more unlikely than life on Venus) event there is an after life I will come back and haunt them LOL

Masks reduce the probability of transmitting SARS-CoV-2

PS: my sentences ending with "LOL" are jokes.

i am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.

Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.

Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
stoichiometric_steve
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 Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate A mask is nothing but a costume which signifies compliance.

Of course you don't want to smell your own breath with all that shit coming out of your mouth. Maybe start brushing your teeth more regularly?
sodium_stearate
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Nice. See, it's funny how when I get absolutely to the
real truth of the matter, guys like S.S. come back
with nothing of substance.

costumes of compliance if it makes you happy.

"Opportunity is missed by most people
because it is dressed in overalls and it
looks like work" T.A. Edison
Corrosive Joeseph
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 Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate when I get absolutely to the real truth of the matter

This is ridiculous, there is no truth in what you write, only delusion.

I live on my own, I don't see many people, and those I do know, they in turn, do not mingle with many folk either. It is quite an 'anti' social circle, and how we ever became friends, I will never know.

I can assure you, nobody hates society more than me, but even when I go in the store I do wear a mask and make sure to get a good ol' splash of that free alcohol hand sanitizer they got left at the door.... I mean, what, how long will you be at the shops getting your groceries in any given week.... An hour, maybe..... Tops.....?

Surgeons wear masks all day every day.... You think these trained, medical professional are uninformed, stupid or are going to die young.....?
You think they do this just for a laugh.....? I certainly don't.

Even though I don't give two fucks about the strangers who pass by me in the aisles of the mall, and I would only love to go on a shooting rampage with an AR-15 because these miserable, pathetic sheep deserve nothing less than to have their tiny brains sprayed all over the tins of beans.....
EVEN I WEAR A MASK..... Why, because I certainly don't want to bring any pathogens home to meet Granny, even if they do have tea and biscuits.

I don't give a rat's ass about my own well being, and nor that of anybody else out there, but it is only irresponsible to behave as you describe.

Embrace your inner mask, have fun with it, how long is this going to last anyway, not forever that's for sure.... Every time I go into a store I wish I had a gun, and I get a great kick out of driving around in the car (wearing mask, hat, sunglasses, the whole nine yards), because, in other times, I would be dragged out of it and hand cuffed on the ground!

You need to lighten up, before you believe that Coronavirus was caused by 5G which was invented by Bill Gates, so he could unveil the cure he has already got, that is secretly masquerading as a vacinne, when in fact he is will be injecting the whole human race with microchips so he can surveil and control us.

/CJ

Being well adjusted to a sick society is no measure of one's mental health
markgollum
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For everyone: Educating oneself on COVID 19:

There is so much conjecture and speculation running rampant in nearly all of the conversations I have watched and participated in since I first heard about COVID last year when it was only in China.

So, wouldn’t it be great if we could listen so someone who is a real expert talking about it either without speculation and/or making a distinction between speculation and what is known?

Well, there is a brilliant practicing physician that founded MedCram.com and has been regularly posting excellent lectures geared to physicians and medical students on all kinds of topics for years. And he has a lecture series that he has been producing as information and publications have come out. He has also been providing care for COVID patients on a daily basis.

For my purposes I consider him the foremost authority on the subject. And if you watch his videos in chronological order you can see how the thinking and treatment has evolved with time.

Highly recommended

But don’t watch it. Go to his channel and pick out the the lectures you are interested in instead

https://youtu.be/2wJdB5tTKeg
stoichiometric_steve
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 Quote: Originally posted by markgollum For everyone: Educating oneself on COVID 19:

That's where your logic fails already. Do you think those covidiots here wouldn't know where to look if they really wanted to get educated? They don't, they're overwhelmed by the brutal realization that they have no control whatsoever over the threat that Covid is. So in the psychotic state of mind that this brings about, they resort to making up shit like the 5G conspiracy and whatnot.
Facts and experts don't matter anymore.

LOOK AT ME! I AM THE EXPERT NOW!
markgollum
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@ stoichiometric_steve

I provided that link because I really think everyone who wants to understand medical stuff including COVID should know about it.

Being an amateur chemist this would be analogous to someone introducing me to orgsyn for the first time maybe.

My father who I love believes all kinds of nonsense: that there may be a civilization of people living within the hollow earth for example, and that they might have their own sun for light too.

And it’s really disheartening and depressing that this sort of thing is something otherwise seemingly “normal and intelligent” people can defend, argue, and humiliate themselves for. My dad is a good man, he has done a lot for me personally and for the rest of the family too. I choose to show love to him and even though it’s hard I make a big effort to avoid calling him and idiot and that is very hard.
But as a teenager I did say to him a few times “shut up Dad, you are embarrassing yourself” it never did any good. Nothing has done much good. And yes, sometimes there can be serious real world consequences. Recently he was visiting an uneducated but smart old relative who has been doing a lot to protect himself from getting COVID, (and for him getting is would be certain death, he already has 2 heart pacemakers, and cardiovascular disease). And my dad went on a tirade about COVID not being that bad, against Bill Gates, etc etc. And well, if my dad psychologically undermines the old mans efforts to stay alive by not getting COVID, then in a sense, my dad will have contributed to the old mans death and that would be a tragedy. My dad doesn’t really do anything to protect himself and he has some higher risk co-morbidity I also have roommates that don’t protect themselves so that is the Achilles heel for the entire family who is otherwise doing things to reduce everyone’s risk.
Twospoons
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Conspiracy nuts are immune to facts, reason and logic.

Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
B(a)P
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I question if it is useful to keep this thread going. Many of the arguments have been made at cross purposes. The conversation is certainly not heading in a productive direction. On one side there is a lot of scientific proof to say masks when used correctly provide a level of protection. On the other side of things people falling over each other at the local department store while talking on the phone with their masks around their necks obviously have zero protection. Surely we all agree that masks correctly fitted work? Let's not keep arguing about how the general population might conduct themselves and work towards a real solution or shut this down.
sodium_stearate
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Real Solution:

Do what Sweden did. In other words, nothing.

Just simply allow the new virus to freely run its course.

Some will get sick, some even will die.

But the vast majority might only get a mild fever
and maybe a cough for a few days.

Global human society does not get all worked up over
anything else that causes sickness and death nearly as
much as they've gotten themselves worked into
a virtual froth over this covid sham.

If health is suddenly so important, then why not
ban smoking and cigarettes? Why not ban driving autos
because that kills a few all the time.

Hey guys, life is a big bad place with all sorts of risks.
Get over it. Covid is just another in a very long series
of viruses which have attacked organisms on this
planet for millions of years.

All of a sudden, the whole damn planet full of gullible
people decides to completely over-react to the latest
virus to come along.

It's really alarming how easily brainwashed the masses